It is great that we are finally getting news of some fixes for the class 150. However, these need to be done carefully and correctly, and not rushed. Nor should it take another 6 months. Below, is a list of the fixes needed to make this a great unit so that Jasper and rivet can use as a check list. It does not however contain the additional reference material, which I can send over at any time should rivet request it. Here goes Major Issues - > Throttle notches 1 2 and 3 are way too powerful in the 2nd gear (direct drive). This unit should NOT accelerate in notch 1 or 2 at 70mph or above on level track. Notch 4 should just about hold it steady. > 0-30mph acceleration is way too quick. Especially 0-20 - Faster than an electric !!! ( ( Should take at least 7-8 seconds 0-10mph in full throttle, not 4 seconds. ) ) > Instantly accelerates when powering up - there needs to be a rev up, 2 second delay before moving off. This CAN be done, despite Rivet saying some nonsense about the limitations of TSW because the Class 37 and Class 31 has a delay between applying power, and the amps raising etc > as mentioned - the revving up is totally non existent. It should rev up, then settle back down. > missing the internal iconic brake rub that these have. They have used the external brake rub sounds from Armstrong Powerhouse's samples BUT they have completely missed the most important sound of the whole unit - INTERNAL brake rub!! > Brake notch 1 currently doesn’t allow all notches of power at the moment. Step 1 according to real life drivers allows ALL throttle notches even from stationary. (But none should be available in step 2 or above) > 2nd gear / direct drive allows acceleration at near top speed in notch 1, 2 and 3 - This is super annoying and makes the unit very annoying to drive. This needs fixing desperately. > The unit goes back into 1st gear when speed reaches below 45mph - this is incorrect. Should stay in 2nd gear / direct drive until the speed has dropped below 39 mph approx. (Technically I believe its 36mph but can't remember off hand - Rivet should be doing the research, not us) > Track joint sounds are too quiet and NOT the correct unit sounds of real life. Again use the correct AP sounds you have sourced. > Wheel flange squeal when going around corners / tight track isn’t correct either > Turbo whistle sounds not included Other Issues > When in 2nd gear (direct drive) the unit's engine audio pitch doesn't change but it SHOULD increase or decrease in volume as more / less throttle is applied. This unit does not simulate this correctly. > DSD does not work as real life... It still sounds the warning if you're using the brake > Braking squeal kicks in too high a speed and the audio loop is quite tacky. The brakes usually only squeal about 5mph or below. > Reverser going into Forward or Reverse should NOT drop the revs like the Diesel Mechanical Units do... ( This unit is not set up as a Diesel Hydraulic at all ) Anyone else have anything that needs changing with the physics or sounds?
Nice review, very detailed. This is what DTG JD and Jasper_Rivet wanted from us in the stream last night. Here are 2 links that should help with regard to how the sounds work: (a YouTubers comparison with Ap sounds Vs Rivets sounds) (Ap 150 sound pack preview, it explains the rev up and down process in quite good detail) If this is a struggle to implement, please do contact us personally or speak to us over the phone. Once this has been fixed correctly, your sales will increase as you will have listened to the community and you will re-establish your trust within fellow users. Any questions, please ask! Cheers.
Brilliant response, thanks Alex. I echo this - we already own the product so we are not trying to get a freebie or anything, just the quality it should be. Even if the rivet team send us work in progress videos so we can check stuff they’re doing, we’d both be happy to lend a hand.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rtufn8am4a2nwq2/AAC8Ouw4RFvbjRcKxgO18tKGa?dl=0 these are some acceleration and braking videos that I took. Can easily go out and get more if needed.
Thanks for these - although these aren't really useful (for everything other than a general feeling), because we don't know in what position the throttle/brake lever is (which is crucial, guesswork is never a good idea when simulating something). ^^ I'm sorry to destroy this illusion, but unfortunately, this is not how that works... (I'm not saying that we don't like going back and fixing things!)
RE guesswork: I thought we were talking about how we could improve it...? Don't really understand the attiude of your post, I was giving you feedback on what would help us. Never said that these aren' helpful btw, just not for the physic changes.
Jasper_Rivet Out of curiosity, do you guys not have the relevant performance and braking info for the Class 150? With all due respect, it sounds like you’re just ‘making it up’ in regards to how you think the Class 150 performs. If you do not have the relevant info, perhaps you should enquire from the appropriate person(s) for info? Just a thought.
At the very least, they may have been able to be used to test your updated physics. I do know that these units go to full power almost immediately on some departures. I think in the videos you can hear when it goes to full power quite easily, 1-2 seconds after starting to move if I remember.
Jasper_Rivet thanks for your feedback. Can you address the points raised above please, as some of these persons above regularly work with improvements to the simulator and they have valid questions. Thanks
Thankfully, we live in the days of internet, where getting information is a lot easier than it was before. It's not always about the information themselve, but also about the people who are implementing it. We had a few changes and I think we do have a very capable team now. But no one would say they're making things up... That's the point - please supply us valid information "go full power after SOME departures" isn't exactly something we can use to improve the expierence. Again, not trying to blame anyone, we know how hard it is to get reference sometimes...
The internet was around in 2021 aswell, I would assume your 'capable' team would have referenced this prior to the initial release? It does appear to be pot, kettle, black to me as the tools and information could be referenced before. Technically speaking (with all due respect), we should not be going on board 150's to show the throttle operation as your team should have sourced this previously. If it's something that you really need us to source, we can see what we can do.. Jasper_Rivet just a final one I feel there is 2 hisses when releasing brakes from step 2, step 1, to release. And also, have you featured wheelslip and the fault lights to appear when the wheelslip occurs. I believe this is coded on TSW2 as other locos use it and have it. Cheers
https://www.dropbox.com/s/39iqnh6u6tdjzln/150 Acceleration - level track 0-70mph.mov?dl=0 If you actually listen very carefully, in this 0-70mph video you will hear he goes to full throttle straight away as once moving the revs do not increase in pitch.
The thing is, rivet released a product which obviously wasn't based on fact, then denied anything was being done and only now a few months later are finding a few of the more vocal people trying to be helpful through gritted teeth because they've tried to be helpful before (and met a wall of silence) YOU personally may not have been the person who did the physics previously, but unfortunately you're the person sitting in the chair as far as Rivet goes, and given we can't go back to the right people... it all gets aimed at you. Even a simple google search can give you the driver's manual for the train - HERE That took me about ten seconds to find, so I'm sure with a bit of digging and even contacting people who own, operate or maintain these trains (Angel trains, GWR etc) you might get some better (and more relevant) answers and even documents than I can That's why you (Rivet) might get some snarky answers, mainly due to frustration of what could have been an excellent job, but seems rushed and bodged.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/39iqnh6u6tdjzln/150 Acceleration - level track 0-70mph.mov?dl=0 Immediate full power from the off - 0-10mph - 7-8 sec 10-20mph - 10-11 sec 20-30mph - 13-14 sec 30-40mph - 16-17 sec So 0 -40mph in full power should take 47-50 seconds would be an acceptable range of ‘ average ‘ Upwards of 40mph it’s actually very realistic. Obviously this is one example, one unit out of many BUT probably the best example I can get as it is practically level track for most of the above timings. AND it goes to full power straight away. Every unit varies. We are not expecting millisecond accuracy - no such thing ever exists, but the game has to simulate an average realistic acceleration, not warp speed……no unit ever accelerates to 10mph in under 4 seconds so that’s the issue that had to be addressed ( which I know you’re doing and for that we are very grateful ) If you have better reference material, and find other sources, able to get out and do some actual real world research, fantastic - go ahead, but these timings are pretty accurate for the average units, and tie in with Armstrong Powerhouse’s physics too. I am sure the community would be very hrateful if you got the TSW version of the 150 to drive with the above timings. I hope that’s more helpful.
I literally feel it's just the sounds that need a nice good tweaking. I'm sure the reference material is stored somewhere in their AP folder from pre release, is it going to be implemented, or is it a copy/paste job? Internal cab sounds, the throbbing when throttle increased, the higher revving when departing and also when gear change has occurred, when you increase the throttle, I'm sure there should be notched revving there also (if that makes sense). Oh, can you reduce the exhaust visuals and make those only based on when you increase throttle as it looks like a steam engine currently.
Surely all of that relates to control positions and physics as much as "whether the sound files are in the right folder"?
I will be honest, I'm really not sure. Are you suggesting that it would iron itself out based on the physics being 'more' correct?
For much of it, yes. The same as the thing doesn't sound right when it's taking off because IRL the driver would put it in a high drive setting but in game you don't have to The problem Rivet face is that they can't just go and record what actually happens in real life and then put that in game because the player may not do what a real driver does. So what they need is a bunch of recordings and settings and then match them up. If you look at a lot of APs youtube you'll see what I mean, you get "no power to notch 1", "notch 1 - notch 2", "notch 2 - notch 3" etc etc THis is because a played may go from 0 - notch 4, then back to notch 2 even though they should have been in notch 5 throughout. TLDR - it's not as easy as doing what they do in real life, because players don't always play that way
See I didn't know much about that. I mean if this is the missing piece of the puzzle, then that could be a positive. See that's my only gripe, with the throttle information you have provided, I assume that could technically be implemented, it would just need the sourcing of the operation (IRL) in order to implement it into the physics of the DMU right? Here is my question then, is the likelihood of this being applied possible, and does TSW2 allow for this to work?
In essence Yes. What needs to happen for these things to become correct is the physics engine needs to be programmed to work correctly (that's simugraph which you've probably seen and heard of) and then the sounds tied to what's going on in simugraph so that when the gearbox engages and power is applied the engine, gearbox, motors etc all do what they're supposed to do and sound like what their supposed to sound given the various states of the controls and systems on the train. This is what Jasper meant when he said "these aren't really useful (for everything other than a general feeling), because we don't know in what position the throttle/brake lever is (which is crucial, guesswork is never a good idea when simulating something)." So just recording what happens IRL is not what's needed here, they need someone to have the correct sounds (and if they got the sounds from AP they will have those sounds) but then they need someone to put all of those sounds in the right places to interact with the controls and with simugraph As another expansion of this let's quote Mr Hawkins... > The unit goes back into 1st gear when speed reaches below 45mph - this is incorrect. Should stay in 2nd gear / direct drive until the speed has dropped below 39 mph approx. (Technically I believe its 36mph but can't remember off hand - Rivet should be doing the research, not us) > When in 2nd gear (direct drive) the unit's engine audio pitch doesn't change but it SHOULD increase or decrease in volume as more / less throttle is applied. This unit does not simulate this correctly. So in two given situations, not only does it matter what position the control is in (in this case the throttle), it also matters which gear the gearbox is in, because on these units the two gears work very very differently, ie it's likely there's two different mechanisms altogether in simugraph... One for "first gear" and one for "second gear" and both would need separate programming and so on. It's all very technical...
I appreciate you going into that level of detail. I understand that there is a thing called simugraph but how it operates is the shortfall. So in hindsight, is the operation detail of a class 150 possible for them to get hold of, so that the notch/throttle detail can be applied etc? I'm trying to see the bigger picture because I am starting to realise that the reference material we provided bears no real impact on their fixes in many ways, I really needed it clearing up so I appreciate all that you have told me.
Oh yes. The link I provided earlier is a link to the actual driver's operation manual of class 150/1 and /2 from BR in the 80s... http://locodocs.co.uk/brmanuals/150-1--150-2GeneralInfoDrivingInstructions-1987.htm It's amazing what people can be bothered to scan and put online... With someone in the dev team who has the knowledge, experience and desire to implement everything required it's very much possible to make and provide such things in TSW. The problem may have been that whoever did this back then did NOT have one of those three things. Again let's look at other things in TSW and see how they flesh out. Compare a "normal" timetable to one don'e by Joe, acknowledged that he spent all the time he had to get a few thousand trains moving on BML... Hopefully whoever is doing this work for Rivet has a similar level of skill, passion and knowledge to get the 150 up to scratch
Hey, you and I have had some issues in the past, but when I respond it's ALWAYS from a position of trying to give people the bigger picture (as I see it of course) Yes, the reference is good in one way in that it shows that's what there NOW isn't correct or accurate. What it doesn't do is address how to fix the issues that are there within a game where Rivet cannot know how everyone will drive the train. What if someone drives it incorrectly and expects it to act like an EMU, you know, stick it in drive 1 and wait til it hits 15mph... the train's not going to do much but Rivet have to make it respond like it would in real life (ie slight engine revs, gearbox whirrs a bit, everyone wonders what's going on, the guy at the back picks his nose...) They also have to put in what happens if someone forgets that they're stopping at this station so slams the thing into reverse, applies full power and puts it into e-braking whilst all the alarms are going off (Not that I've done that of course)
I fully appreciate your response to me. The only reason I am so smitten about this loco/DMU is purely because I have always admired the 150's and then when trying to use one on MSTS (yes many moons ago) and TSC (over the years), I had never been able to afford the hardware to fully function it and use the AP versions which are highly accurate and great quality. My final question regarding the fixes is, are they fixing the non existent brake rub sounds as I know this is a very high sounding section of the slowing of the DMU's. Again, is this physics related or do these sounds need applying? Jasper_Rivet can you please ensure the brake rub sounds are added to your list of fixes as these are very relevant to the operation of the 150 when slowing down and applying the brakes.
I am not claiming to be able to provide all the exact details or technical info, but as you say I am providing feedback as to what needs correcting at the present moment, and also sending some videos to allow final testing to compare their fixes with real life examples. I am not in the industry, nor am I an engineer - that’s up to rivet to source the correct info. What Alex and myself are trying to do is provide information about what needs fixing, and how it should act and sound once fixed. We shouldn’t even have to do any of this. It is not our job to do it, rivet should have done it back in October / November in the first place. We are merely assisting to help them get started because we are both passionate about getting a decent 150/2 in the game for our £25 rather than an EMU etc etc
Yes, this is one of the most frustrating things that is missing from the unit. The Brake Rub sounds are ESSENTIAL for the immersion of this unit. Tread brakes usually had a very distinct brake rubbing sound, disc brakes generally did not. The 150s are all tread brakes. This HAS to be included. AP’s internal brake rub is astounding. No reason not to include it.
Well I had to go back and do a brake test on the 150. Took the unit to 60 MPH coming from PNZ on a green light run then applied brake step 2 First I used camera 3 and put the camera directly on top of the train. No brake sounds at all above 40mph, brakes between 40 and about 25 were there, then the "squeaky braking" started all the way down to 0. No high rubbing noises as would be expected, but it does at least prove that braking physics were applied so yes, these can be "improved" with different levels and programming Did it twice more, once in 3 camera right next to the bogie (no difference) and once in 1 camera in cab (very little sound at all bar rail running noises and the squeaky brakes) To be honest the cab sounds like it's a noise deadening chamber with very little noise at all, whereas these units are likely to let loads of noise in Just to compare I did kick off the 150/2 AP pack in TSC and both the horn and brake rubbing noises were so much louder and clearer (and probably more accurate) Than the TSW version
I believe that's what yourself, Alex and I have been doing this morning on this post (whilst also trying to fill in some of what they COULD do technically which hopefully they already know)
It's great to hear the Rivet are addressing some problems, and to add to the entirely valid discussion; regarding sounds - it has to be noted that the cue files for the following sounds in the 150 setup are referencing core US freight wagons sounds(!) Judging by filenames it appears that these were be meant for WIP placeholders, but ended up being used in the released product: 1. Brake rub* 2. Flange 3. Track run 4. Bogie joint (IIRC) These absolutely require their OWN sound set. The AP sound files for most of these actually exist with the WCL class 150 plugin, and just need the cues setting up. Jasper, can you please add this to the fix list. *Note that brake rub really needs to be louder internally - currently they're very quiet on the inside of the train, and also volume and pitch need to correspond to the amount of brake being applied - they also need to be changed to use the brake rub from the AP sound set - and definitely NOT the rubbing sound from US freight wagons! It's very much different!! ** Brake squeal sounds are authentic, but require the volume curve shortening. Currently they play when braking from around 10mph -> zero and start looping. They should really only squeal from around 5mph - zero.
I really appreciate all of your feedback on here, I'm sure it has to be easier than this to get the developers to resolve it? I feel you guys are all providing this information and it will be overlooked. I'm genuinely sick and tired, I am trying to be patient and relaxed but I just feel deflated because there is no acknowledgement that this will get fixed, especially when the tools have been confirmed and the fact they are using silly rail screeching noises from US flanges. I mean please, I have just about had enough. There is an abundance of info here, it's so disheartening. Also, JD specifically said on the stream the other night to get a thread open and not once has this been acknowledged, which I personally thought would be the case.
Just had a quick go on WCL, the Class 150 still moves off even when the DRA button is illuminated. Is anybody from Rivet going to note down these fixes?
The internet was also around when the 204 was released for TSW2020, yet it's still wrong today, with the same issues of the Cl 150. One thing is certain: Rivet will never run out of excuses...
I am done - going to sit back and let rivet work their ‘magic’ on their 150 and we will see what the result is. happy editing folks
Here a link with the manuals for a few of uk related units also 150, 155, 156 and pacer units. Probably not the full informations rivet needs, but better scans than on locodocs. There is also a manual about westcode braking equipment. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11eUff1VYDseHAifyRlERpLimKF2xPSFy
Jasper_Rivet can you please pass all this information on to be worked on and not just considered please..
My opinion, the 150 isnt really a unit which doesnt drive anymore like the 38 tubestock. So the discussion about reference material seems a bit questionable to me. From the office chair its not coming, thats for sure. Get out and make a cabride in that thing, cant be that difficult.
Exactly, what surprises me more, is that part of Rivet games is based in Scotland. I'm sure it's possible, though it's whether they can be bothered to undertake the referencing, or contacting a TOC to do it. I feel like I'm going to have to make the effort and that doesn't go down lightly with me, though it may be my only choice.
Beside a physical ride on a class, the speed / weight diagram and braking charts is something rivet needs. The guys in the norwhich depot have that. Well the 150 was made straight during the corona pandemic, no recording sessions possible. But thats different now..
I can't believe we're at the point where players are trying to develop the 150 for Rivet. They should never have made a 150 in the first place, it's painfully clear they have no idea how they behave and sound in real life.
Not sure if we mentioned it already, but we're working on the Class 150... See here for a list of the fixes made to the unit: https://forums.rivet-games.com/foru...ce-st-austell-st-ives-out-now?p=7409#post7409 Noted.
That’s not an excuse for them what so ever - they sourced the sounds from Armstrong Powerhouse, amazing quality sound recordings utterly ruined when they were put into TSW. Hardly any of the real sounds were used properly otherwise we wouldn’t be in this position we are in now.
Jasper_Rivet make note of all pointers raised by others above please. We are all trying here and you are not absorbing the information.
The sounds need a major re-work in the way they are programmed, not just a couple of tweaks here and there. I've just extracted the raw Armstrong Powerhouse recordings and they sound amazing. Though in TSW it sounds like I'm driving a farm vehicle from GTA San Andreas. Jasper, with all due respect, some of your comments can come over as a bit harsh and unnecessarily sarcastic sounding, when we're only trying to help by providing constructive criticism and information for the 150. Remember, us players purchased this product so its only natural for us to expect for it to sound and perform right the first time round. I know you guys can do it right if you put the time and effort into it, as the preview for your new IOW Class 484 was very well perceived. Please give the Class 150 the same love and attention and you'll notice player's attitude improve, as well as continuing to support your DLCs. On an unrelated note, just listen to the 150 thrash!!
Well said. We as a community are quite frankly totally and utterly [REMOVED - Alex] and fed up. It has been eight months and should have been right the first time, We are not going to sugar coat it. It was an absolute joke of a DLC when released and still is. Until it is fixed to an OUTSTANDING quality, and not just a tweak here and there we will not be silenced. These are absolutely iconic and popular units, but at the moment it sounds like Kermit the Frog and drives like a frog on ice. ‘That’ll do’ will not do.
To be fair to Jasper, English is not his first language, so he might come across as being harsh and sarcastic and not intend to do so.
Is there any way of looking into the key bindings for cab controls? Specifically the guard buzzer, when it is implemented it is ‘B’ on the keyboard, unfortunately the 150 is one of many units in TSW that hasn’t been set up to use this binding. Would be great to see this implemented.
No mention of any sound fixes or changes then. Despite there being a load of useable AP sounds actually in the pak, the 150 is referencing totally unsuitable core freight sounds. I worked these units from shortly after they were introduced to Regional Railways Central until around 2002 and they have a fond place in my heart. Disappointed I have to go to the AP version in TSC to get my fix, when TSW has the sounds but they're not being configured.
