Class 150 Updates From Iow Stream

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by ghawk2005, Jul 13, 2022.

  1. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I know what you mean, that's exactly how I feel about it, like I have to go to TSC again because things can't be implemented correctly here on TSW2.

    I have washed my hands with TSW2 now anyway, Matt P always denying bugs on streams, JD over promising that things will get sorted but it's just a ploy that gets them paid. He said the other day, "make a thread for Jasper so we know what needs fixing". We do that and then JD is nowhere to be seen and only 50% of the required fixes are being noted. Finally, Jasper who notes down everything else but most of the things in question to fix. Regardless of Language barriers, it has been constantly mentioned that the sounds are crap (due to how they have been applied) but basically the company/developers will do the bare minimum just to try and tick boxes, rather than have a passion to do a big fix that resolves everything.

    Go and release your shoddy fixes for this, TSW2 will never be what TSC is/was and only time will tell when we get a competitor and can be done with DTG and it's ignorant 3rd party developers.

    [REMOVED - Alex - Harassment]
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2022
  2. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    And in the midst of all this the WCL route itself still needs a rework, from the wrong speed limit on the Up coming out of St Ives to the incorrect lower casing on some of the station signage at Truro. Stopping points for stations too far ahead of the platform in some cases on the Down, the weird arrangements at foot and occupation crossings.

    If the route and train had been offered as freeware, we would have smiled and said good effort. But AFAIK outside of sales, DTG and their Rivet sidekicks are still asking £24.99 for this which is frankly an insult.

    And yes Alex you are quite right. There does seem to be a policy of avoidance, denial and misdirection at DTG. Without taking this thread OT, just look at the multiple outstanding issues with most of the other products which never get fixed.
     
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  3. Jasper_Rivet

    Jasper_Rivet Well-Known Member

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    Could you describe what you did to get the train apply power while the DRA is on? We couldn’t reproduce that bug.
     
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  4. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Jasper, quick question in terms of sounds the external flange squeal as the 150 comes round corners seems to also apply when on straight bits of track, will this be looked into?

    Also the squeal itself sounds like a China plate being dragged across a metal floor rather than anything authentic.

    How far has your sound guy got so far out of interest? The 150 holds a special place for some of us and the sounds really do need addressing.

    P.s Alex and the piano teacher please do not use my reply to jump up and down on Jaspers head. If he responds great if not no amount piling in will help, I get the frustration however some of your recent replies are borderline racist, particularly ones where you reference "language barriers".

    Have a good day all, off to the beach, there is more to life than a digital version of a 150 (albeit I would enjoy using a more robust version of it)
     
  5. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    I think you're wildly paraphrasing me there. I don't think I've promised any fixes - let alone for a third-party developer - in the stream this week we outlined the work the Rivet team are taking for the physics on the 150/2, and for further feedback to let us know. We also mentioned that Audio and loco modelling teams are very different, so there is a likelihood that the physics work would happen before any Audio work that might take place (which I don't believe the Rivet team have committed to at this stage).

    For terminology's sake - a fix would be to improve something broken/not working as intended, whilst an improvement would focus on something which we can tweak and improve a player's experience. We focus on fixes first and foremost, and in most cases, Audio would be classed as an 'improvement'.

    Thank you both alexjjones6024 and ghawk2005 for summarising the improvements which you believe need to happen. Understand the passion and desire to improve the player experience. Whilst I understand the frustration that you feel in believing you're not being heard, please understand that with the likes of Jasper jumping into this thread, he is trying to gather information to circulate back to Rivet's development team. Whilst we can't promise improvements to the audio, we are doing our best to circulate the feedback to the right people.

    As a note for all players: I understand passion and frustration - but when that channels into personal commentary about members of staff or individual representatives from third-party developers, that is not acceptable behaviour.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2022
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  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Problem is that the sounds and physics on this unit ARE broken because they're not what is true to life, don't activate when the controls activate and aren't at the right levels when they do.
    If Rivet set this up this way on purpose (so it's "as expected") then people are rightly to be annoyed / dismayed that they've been charged for something which is blatantly and deliberately wrong.
     
  7. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    The physics are being reviewed (link here if you haven't seen it already) - Audio we could wait for, or we could push forward with the current batch of physics fixes/improvements to improve that experience first.

    I'll let Jasper answer around future Audio improvement possibilities, as I don't know the ins and outs of Rivet's team.
     
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I've just looked at the physics fixes and some of those will sort the audio out if they're linked anyway. The remainder don't address the concerns raised in this or other posts on the subject
    Obviously ANY improvement is an improvement...
     
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  9. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jasper, please see the video link below which shows DRA on and lit up. As you will see, it seems to be that you close the doors, release brakes and then apply throttle and the train moves off.

    Here is the link:


    Cheers.
     
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  10. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I can’t speak for everyone else, but even if the physics are fantastic, I still won’t want to use it in the game if the audio hasn’t been improved. I haven’t used it in the game for months, can’t bear it. I think this is last chance saloon for rivet with this unit. They need to get BOTH right before they release the update.

    1) it should never have taken this long

    2) All this feedback was mentioned numerous times BEFORE original release and as soon as we all heard the preview stream. Next to naff all was done about it.

    3) Why don’t DTG jump in and lend a hand. If you know how ‘passionate we are’ about this unit and the fact that we are all massively disappointed it, why isn’t more being done to work as a team to sort it all out. As Alex has said this all reflects very badly on DTG’s attitude too. a) for allowing the release in the first place, b) not getting on rivet’s back about fixes for 8 months, c) allowing them to continue to release other stuff before fixing their old.

    ‘Not our product’ - technically correct but it makes the whole system ‘ team look horrendous. You can define ‘fixes, tweaks, improvements’ all you like but at the end of the day - the 150/2 is not playable for anyone who knows the unit well.
     
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  11. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    This may have been answered somewhere before, but is there a chance Rivet could work directly with AP to help things?

    I'm not naive enough to believe that that would magically fix everything overnight, but surely it would help a little bit, and put Rivet on the right track. As the original creators of the sound pack I think they could give better advice on what needs to change than we can (not that we should stop helping of course).
     
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  12. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Great suggestion, but unfortunately I think the only people that could help rivet are DTG as AP don’t work with TSW, or have access to the editors etc. AP supply the sound files. The programming / coding they do would never work in TSW.

    I really wish they worked with TSW2 though. They would be a god send to this game, they really would. :(
     
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately that's not how it works
    AP have provided the raw sound files, but the implementation of sounds is down to programming, which AP may not have the knowledge of doing in UE environment
    We KNOW the sound files themselves are good because they're the same as on the TSC AP EP 150/2
    So it's not the sound files, but how they've been implemented and programmed. And as someone above said, the file for the wheel flange is there, but it's using a different sound in game, so it's not implemented correctly
     
  14. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Whilst I totally agree with the sentiment, I think we should cut Jasper some slack. He is the customer facing person for Rivet. However, if he takes back the suggestions to the developers and, for whatever reason, they get ignored by the company, he would undoubtedly be under an obligation to tow the company line. He can’t turn round and moan about them publicly like we can. We can take out our frustrations through Jasper, but not at him.

    It’s like shouting at the person on the customer services desk in Tescos when you don’t get what you want. There’s nothing that person can do about it but they can’t be rude back at you or at the company who made the decisions. Frustrating but actually getting through to the people who can actually make the decisions is nigh on impossible these days.
     
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  15. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Technically it is DTG’s product as they own the TSW2 franchise. I was always taught that you can delegate responsibility for a task but not overall accountability. Therefore, if a sub-contracted add-on is substandard, as is clearly the case with the 150, DTG should definitely be getting on Rivet’s back, not least because poor quality add-ons reflect badly on the core product and on DTG as the owners of that product.
     
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    In this case Rivet is a 3rd party, so DTG are the publisher of the DLC, but Rivet were not subcontracted
    In the case of a DLC such as Cathcart, where DTG employed Rivet to undertake scenery works, Rivet WERE a subcontractor

    So the question is whether DTG as a publisher for the 150 DLC retain some liability or responsibility for it
     
  17. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I won't purchase this DLC until the class 150 physics/sounds are improved even then I might not as I don't like the ridiculous layers.

    However I don't think getting personal is the answer. In my experience when you start getting personal with someone or a group of people especially in a work environment it usually has the opposite effect than that is desired.

    I get fed up with the way West Midlands Trains runs my local line but whilst I moan to them on Twitter regularly, I am polite, as the person dealing with their social media is not the person responsible and doesn't get paid to be shouted at and I am sure Jasper doesn't either. And as said, getting to the people making the decisions is not very easy at all and you just have to hope that your views are fed back to them.
     
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  18. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I have repeatedly chastised my partner as to the shoddy state of the sandwiches she makes me. I have even offered to walk her through the steps of exactly how bread should be buttered, how much filling should be added and and easy way to ensure that when cut in half, the two halves of the sandwich are of equal size, while simultaneously bad-mouthing her sandwich making skills all over facebook so she knows how I feel. I’ve told her how passionate I am about sandwiches and how my friend Amy Powdermouse makes perfect sandwiches. I often tell her how much better and prettier Amy is that her and that she would do good to dress more like her and act more like her and make sandwiches just like Amy does. She refuse my help and is now refusing to make me any more sandwiches. I’ve sent her a video of me making a sandwich and I’m also going to try shouting at her some more, to see if that helps. She’s now threatening to leave me. All I want is a nice sandwich, I don’t get why she doesn’t just make me a better sandwich. I’ve been very helpful.
     
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  19. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if your local route is the Cross city line? I'm from Selly Oak and it can be troublesome sometimes.

    I'm not getting personal, I just feel there is a lack of refusal to implement these changes whilst other changes are already in the works.

    Why do half a job now and half a job later, when the product is already released and still for sale, when all of the fixes can be done and we can accept waiting longer, knowing it will be to a standard that is acceptable or alot better quality?
     
  20. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Is there a dovetail in your sandwich?

    Perhaps checking the Rivet's around the sandwich maker might help resolve your query?
     
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  21. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You left out that she's been making you sandwiches for years without going to see a sandwich or get the sandwich making manual...
     
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  22. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for providing some improvements, is there any possibility the reverser can be 'reversed' i.e. so it moves anticlockwise into forward rather than clockwise? (to move from the OFF position to forward, the reverser must first move through reverse and neutral).
     
  23. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    From a campaigners perspective (myself), I believe they are fixing this according to the fix notes
     
  24. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Didn't see it on there, neither is the bug where the Class 150 as AI trains display the wrong headlight/taillight combination (either off entirely or displaying both marker and taillights simultaneously).
     
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  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    No the Snow Hill lines although looking on their Twitter feed the Cross City seems to get a fair few complaints. I find with WMR it isn't what goes wrong it is how they deal with it, usually at the convenience of having trains in the right place but passengers in the wrong place!
     
  26. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Better off without her, than put up with sub standard sandwiches. Same goes for TSW2, too much mediocrity in the modern world. Rail users in the real world put up with dire service from the privatised shambles. No need to accept it with a game.
    By the way, the anti BR crowd should read this book. About how good it really was, compared to the privatisation fiasco.
    British Rail
    Christian Wolmar

    Published by Penguin Books Ltd 2022-06-09, London, 2022

    ISBN 10: 0241456207ISBN 13: 9780241456200
     
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  27. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    You can take the mick all you like, but at least Alex and I are trying to do something for the greater good. It’s a hell of a lot more than some members are doing.

    Alex and a few other members are not claiming to be providing absolute accurate or technical info. That is not our job. We are aiming to provide details of stuff that we have observed not to be correct - ‘the STARTING point’ if you like. It is then up to rivet and DTG to go and act on those issues and fix them just like the last 20 years of train simulator feedback. Not many people have provided exact technical details, but more a case of ‘ braking is too harsh ‘ etc etc

    I campaigned for ages to get the 166 acceleration tweaked, and finally it was sorted. All I did was provide real life gps / speed recordings for them to compare and test, they did the rest.

    instead of just sitting there taking the mick all the time, why don’t you use your energy and channel it into something productive like offering to help provide useful information to help get the 150/2 fixed ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2022
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  28. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Beautifully put
    Next point?
     
  29. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    It's a sad day if you can no longer 'take the mick' - especially if the humour contains a whisper of truth....
     
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  30. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I can’t do that because I don’t have access to any data or other resources, but if I did I wouldn’t be giving Rivet that useful data and simultaneously waging a war of words about them in the extreme way I’ve witnessed you do since the release of WCL. You’ve even gone on to say that if they fix the physics from your data you won’t be happy unless they fully fix the sound as well. I’m sure you won’t be happy whatever they do because I doubt they will ever get it perfect but I do hope they use the info you and Alex provide to improve the train for everyone else.
     
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  31. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I am not expecting it to be perfect at all, but when it’s advertised as a simulator I do expect a certain degree of realism. For the record, as amazing as the AP packs are, they are not perfect either - the HST and 150 braking are both a tad weak for example, BUT they are within the realms of an ‘average set’ and they sound amazing - that’s all we are asking for. Realistic.

    Just because I am glad they’ve finally come round to doing something about their pack, does not mean I am going to suck up to them and tell them they’re amazing. They are not. It is well overdue and should never have been released like it in the first place. They have a duty to fix their errors if they are charging money for their packs and advertising it as a simulator rather than an arcade game.
     
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  32. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    And Amy Powderhouse supplied all the ingredients to your partner. Sadly she put the bread on the inside and the filling on the outside, then cut them into squares rather than triangles :)
     
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  33. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    But the sandwiches looked wrong and tasted wrong, and having spent so much money already, you feel a sense of attachment and would rather change the sandwiches than the sandwich maker... :D
     
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  34. Jasper_Rivet

    Jasper_Rivet Well-Known Member

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    May I have one of the sandwiches please? ^^ I'm hungry now...

    Thanks DTG JD for your statement, it pretty much covers what I'm thinking over the last days.
    Yes it's my job to be the bridge between community & development (and I love what I do!), BUT some of you are getting personal, which is simply not cool.

    Regarding audio: We never commited on any fixes here - and I'll keep saying that until I have a definite answer to if and what has been done.

    Regarding the DRA bug: We can't reproduce that anymore (exactly following the steps shown in the video), I suspect there was a connection somewhere between the door bug that has been fixed and the DRA bug. Consider it sorted.
     
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  35. argh.bailey

    argh.bailey Active Member

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    Not sure I have seen it mention previously in this thread but the AWS alternates between yellow/black & yellow/black it looks like it moves like it should but the 'clear' state should be black/black
     
  36. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    I hope Rivet isnt getting scared by all the feedback. So actually with all they have learned, why not considering making the class 150/1 or other units like the class 153, 155 or 156. (After the 150/2 has its fix)

    Jasper does a great job as community manager, people who start getting personal should join a drama soap, but not post here in this forum.
     
  37. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, all they would need to do is a bit more referencing and maybe their next release could be 10x better. However, it does mean coming to the UK to witness the operation. Infact, they recently did audio recording at the IOW, so it has to be possible.

    With all due respect, it would be better to learn from this release and to ensure it doesn't happen again and release a solid DLC. I'm sure they have it in them.
     
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  38. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    After everything that has happened, I really do believe the way forward is joint teamwork creation. Rivet have shown consistently that they can create absolutely stunning, and I mean truly staggeringly good visual content and I have never denied that before.

    BUT they are experts out there that are stunning in physics and sounds. If these people are drafted in as a joint venture I think we’d have some incredible releases. That way rivet can learn from the best, get better or whatever but in the meantime we aren’t having to part with our cash and put up with half finished releases whilst they learn the ropes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
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  39. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Rivet is based in Scotland. So they are already in the UK
     

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