Ap Class 90/dvt To Be Removed Soon

Just a heads up but if you have yet to buy the class 90/DVT from AP website grab it while you can as AP said in a reply to someone it is a legacy product and soon to be discontinued.
More than likely this means a “updated” one in the works that they will charge more for and I doubt will include MK3s like the current one does as they will want to see the new mk3 pack.

bit of a coincidence the “legacy” class 90 is to be discontinued giving the pacer is older and still available

 

The 90 is a rather outdated product now and could do with updating so not too sure what the problem is. The current pack doesn't include Mk3s either... (apart from the DVT of course)

What's the harm in bringing it into line with all other loco releases and charging accordingly? Presumably with a discount for those who already own the old pack. The old pack was something of a generous bundle all things considered but had its limitations as a result. Just look at the DVT not working with other locos as a prime example. There's only so much you'll get out of a £14.99 product. Would you rather not pay a bit more and have a more comprehensive up to date version? Even if you wouldn't, why do you begrudge the idea of it being provided as an option for those who are interested? If you wish to stick with the original pack, you do just that, no skin off your nose.

Also, as an aside, would it make you feel better if the Pacer is withdrawn too?

 

Can you elaborate on how it is outdated.

 

Maybe they're reacting to the updated GEML coming out later this year. For a sim people keep saying is "dead", there's an awful lot happening at the moment

I do agree that a discount for owners of the original 90 pack(s) would be a nice gesture though.

 

to be fair AP are normally good at doing the discount for current owners so I imagine this would be the same

 

I'll have a bash:
- Sounds are quite noticeably less refined. Run sounds aren't the best quality or very varied. The motors are similarly not very varied or as detailed as more recent offerings. The motor whine at higher speeds can get a little irritating on loop. The flange sounds are the old type that get repetitive quite quickly and the joints don't sound as good as more recent releases. They just generally need a polish to fit with what we're used to these days.
- The scripting seems to quite a bit more resource intensive than recent releases. Just place a few 90s in a scene and the FPS tanks more than other locos. There is also no WSP simulated which has pretty much now become standard. Also, would be nice to see the variable power factor as well as motor factor.
- The external textures lack the high resolution detail of today's releases, especially in the weathering (three weathered variants per livery seems to be the standard with AP locos now). The quality of the nameplates doesn't compare to today and as far as I can see, aren't a comprehensive selection. Little things too like the headlight textures, they are just generic glows and not the photo realistic visuals we are used to now. We could do with more livery variations within liveries too.

I'm sure there's more but that's what comes to mind at the mo. There are many things that are standard with AP releases now that people almost take for granted I feel but when driving something like the 90, you realise how far things have come.

Of course, you personally might not be fussed about these various advances that have been made in the past 9 years and if so, that's fine, stick with the older packs.

 

I just tested the "Class 90/Mk3 DVT Pack & Class 90 (Freightliner) Pack" on my private/ fictive route.
- I test the lady now for over a week...

The AP class 90 packs offer an excellent electro locomotive for TS classic ( with 'advanced' features ).
- functionality is wonderful ( nothing at all, I could miss as driver! )
- 'eye candy'; well, I would say AP did combine beauty and functionailty ...

So where we could call the lady 'outdated' ?!?

That is nonsense !

Could it be a marketing strategy to withdraw the Class 90 ?!
--> Class 87 ...
I don't think that AP is expecting many new customer for the Class 90; but a new model will arrive soon...

Personally the Class 90 and the oldfashioned Class 76-bX are my electro locomotives on my British routes.
The lady looks perfectly fine in TS classic...
...

 

Didn't realise there's an updated GEML in the works. Could you post a link please. I must admit, I'm out of the loop with TSC at the moment, I used to get a lot of info from UKtrainsim, but that seems to either be v quiet or I sometimes get a virus alert when accessing the forum. Shame really, it used to be a massive hive of info.

 

I'm afraid I don't have a link at the moment but it was mentioned in one of Alan Thomson's streams. He asked the dev/one of the devs to post an update in the chat, and apparently it's done as far as Shenfield, working southbound. They said that obviously Stratford will be a hard one to work on to modernise (as we'd expect) but it's bubbling along nicely, by the sounds of it.

Edit: I also get virus alerts when trying to access UKTS, especially the forums. There were/are some very knowledgeable folks on there.

 

What I sometimes get when logging in is the site certificate has gone out of date so it give a warning that it might not be safe.
You can chose to ignore it and reach the page and normal and Matt when advised updates the certificates.

And when downloading it again says the download might not be safe but it still lets you do it.

 

Its not the Class 90 is outdated but the DVT need to be updated to work with the Class 87 which is about to be released.
The main AP Class 90 pack uses coaches from WCML North from 2011 which are really Kuju HST Coaches.

The loco itself is fine

 

37418 made all the points in the post above yours. It's definitely showing its age now, especially when compared to newer Armstrong Powerhouse releases.

 

I'm generally fine with replacing content but it really annoys me when developers remove content that is required for other content, such as scenarios, reskins and routes. It's one of the worst things about the Train Simulator community and particularly AP, as many of their packs (such as sound packs) are withdrawn purely to direct sales to new packs when there is still demand for the older content. Their sound packs might not be as refined but they are still better than the sounds they replace, and trains like the DTG Electrostars are effectively unplayable without them. Additionally, sometimes AP break their own content be removing products, such as older scenarios. AP are by no means the only people guilty for this habit but really it should stop as soon as possible. If I was rich I'd probably buy AP in its entirety and put all of their older content up for free download, as 'legacy' content. I'd probably do the same with DTG to be honest... I wasn't happy with having to go the very long Amazon route to get the Class 02 DLC.

Its not the Class 90 is outdated but the DVT need to be updated to work with the Class 87 which is about to be released.
The main AP Class 90 pack uses coaches from WCML North from 2011 which are really Kuju HST Coaches.

The loco itself is fine[/QUOTE]And ironically they're the same Kuju HST coaches in their 'brand new' Mark 3 coach pack, the biggest joke in the TS community this year.

 

I still use the 90 sometimes, but less so since the 86 EP came out. It's usable, it's decent. But by 2022 standards it's not excellent. It was excellent 8-9 years ago.

I'll be getting the 87 anyway as I have an interest in their operations through the Intercity/Virgin eras, when I was a kid/teenager. But if a new 90 was convincing enough - or a indeed a proper 57 pack, 67 pack or 31 pack, I'd be interested. The better the simulator gets at simulating, the happier I am as a consumer.

 

Place the Kuju Mk3 next to the greatly enhanced version in the Mk3A-B Coach Pack and you will quite easily see a far improved product. It's not even the original Kuju model anyway, it's the one from the GEML Class 90 which had extra detail added (roof, underframe, first class lamps and additional RFM variant). Does it even matter what the provenance of the model is if the end result is of a sufficient quality? The one let down is how the interior looks from the outside but that's minor in the grand scheme of things. Apart from that, you would barely know its origins. It just sounds you like have an axe to grind to be honest rather than just taking things at face value.

Try and inject a little more goodwill and generosity into your life rather than being bitter at those who actually get out there and have a go at creating something better than what went before. You'll feel much better for it.

 

The model, no matter how many child objects you slap on it, is still LOVE. The texturing is worse than AP's past coach packs, and because AP specifically chose to use the Kuju Mark 3s we will not get a good Mark 3 pack for years. It just should not have been made. You can try to take the moral high ground but a LOVE effort is just that. It may be better in some ways but the fact it exists is hilarious and justifies criticism of Armstrong Powerhouse. They are not as amazing as people make them out to be - not that matters of course, since this game's community was already going down the toilet seven years ago...

 

Your absolutely entitled to your opinion that the model is still LOVE, I just think that's a bit hyperbolic but hey, that's your view.

Ever considered that AP assessed this was as good as it will get based on the availability of their modellers? (see the 47 that is so sorely needed but still not forthcoming). I'm sure they would have done a proper new build like the Mk1 and Mk2s if they could have, but they obviously couldn't. Would you rathered we use far poorer quality Mk3s infinitely on the off chance a modeller becomes available? Hardly a sensible thing to do with a new build 87 on the way that needs decent Mk3s; which it now has.

Also, what are the good parts of the community that keep you posting or do you just get a kick of being around things that annoy you?

 

I like trains, that's why I'm here. I don't post on the forums because I like the community or those involved in it - to be honest I haven't met a single person in the entire TS community who I'd want to be friends with. There are so many vicious debates in the community, from those who are extremely critical of things as minor as reskins, to those who defend AP religiously, and those arguing between TS and TSW - of course, the latter is a pointless debate. They're both LOVE.

 

Perhaps find a forum dedicated solely to the real railways then and be happier that way?

 

I think the Mk3 pack is a great improvement, and I don't consider myself being conned or ripped off in any way whatsoever. They are objectively better, add more liveries, look better, and add better sound features that were sorely missing in the old ones.

There seems to be a regular bunch of people in here that just seem to have nothing but issues with pretty much anything AP do.

 

Criticism is always required somewhere. Unfortunately AP's quality has been decreasing over the years for pretty much everything except for BR loco packs and EPS, and slam-door MU packs (which have been getting consistently better, the 411 pack is one of the best things available for Train Simulator). The Mark 3 pack may be useful but doesn't justify its own existence (and will prevent a better AP Mark 3 pack from coming out for a long time), and their recent EPs such as the Electrostars and 700s have been pretty terrible. Better than what they're based on, but a quick look at a Yawwie review won't do them much justice - especially at the price AP sell them for.

 

That's a hard disagree from me. There have always been shining examples, and ones that were a bit meh. It's not a new thing. The 31EP was decidedly meh... but the 86 was epic. (shrug).

 

As I said in my previous post, I agree with that. However, more and more issues are sneaking into releases. The Class 700/707/717 pack should not have been advertised as such, since the 717 is meant to be AI-only, and bad even at that. Texture and sound issues also plague the pack in some areas. The 375/377 EP and 700 EP both have passenger view inaccuracies, such as the first class sections in the 707s and 717s, and the Class 375 interior being unchanged from the Class 377 interior. The 800 EP and Electrostar EPs copied sounds from the Networker EPs, which I believe were inaccurate in that as well. Of course, some of these are less prominent than others, and as somebody who isn't bothered by sound quality that much unless it is unbearably bad I won't lose sleep about it, but sometimes I struggle to justify the money I've spent on AP packs for what they contain. I'd ask for refunds but as AP packs are required for almost all downloaded scenarios in the UK and releasing a scenario without using AP packs is not a popular thing to do, I don't have much choice. But, of course, the 'they're better than DTG' comment will come back, because generally they are. DTG sometimes do better than them, particularly in modelling, such as with the LNER HST, new Class 465 and new Class 142s, but they don't have AP features or sounds. The AP Valenta pack may be awfully modelled without the Major Wales fixes, but it does sound great when I'm in the head out view and powering it up in a tunnel.

 

Hardly a solid win for DTG that is it, considering AP don't actually model.

 

I know Waggonz and Gu do modelling sometimes, but who else helps them?

 

No idea, I just know that Richard doesn't model himself.

 

What did you buy them for then? LOL Moan, moan, moan.... the same bunch of people in every AP thread. The only reason the "other guy" isn't here as well is because he just gets laughed at when he does now, but you seem to be the one to step up and take his place

AP didn't do the modelling.

The model had nothing to do with AP. Stop talking nonsense. The glorious sound that replaces the Kuju asthmatic wheezing did though, and worth the money.

If you don't like some AP products, why do you buy them? I think the 31EP is awful... which is why I haven't bought it. I think the 700 is a bit rubbish as well... which is why I haven't bought that either. You're as bad as the "other guy". He used to slag off AP all the time, but reckoned he owned almost everything.... (we now know that was a lie, but...) why? Just keep your cash in your pocket, and jog on. There's tons of stuff in Train Sim I think it genuinely terrible, but other people seem to like them, so I just leave them to it. No one forces anyone to buy AP stuff, so I don't understand this pathological hatred and inability to resist a chance to have a bloody good moan. I don't even understand the moaning about price. I bet the ones who moan about price would happily spend £30 on booze on a night out... but let me guess... that's "different" right? So paying £30 for a product that took months of work that will give you pleasure for years to come is just too much, but paying the same amount on what ultimately ends up being expensive urine and a headache is perfectly fine LOL

[REMOVED - Alex - Inappropriate Behaviour]

If it wasn't for AP and other 3rd party addons available for this sim, I'd have walked away from it ages ago.

 

God forbid someone has a opinion and voices it that is different from you!!

I wish you would do the community a favour and walk away from the sim perhaps these forums wouldnt be as toxic as they without you here.

This is the 2nd thread i have seen you bully Doomotron and targeted his opinions just because they are different from yours. You are nothing but a bully on these forums if anyone dare has a different opinion on you you just cant help yourself and bully them. I have reported both your posts to admin just so you are aware about time they gave you a little break from these forums which will prove to them just how much of a difference the community here would be.

 

Sure... it's all my fault. Everything.. even the threads I'm not in... LOL Just block me and I'll go away.

 

Like i said in the other thread your bulling this member. If you are not in this thread then how come i was able to quote your messasge above. Nice try troll,

As previously said Admin have been informed and hopefully this time they see your bullying and take action against you.

Have a nice break.

 

Richard does enough work as it is on these amazing packs. The team he has brought together through the years has got to be one of the best 3rd party development teams any simulation game has seen.

 

Huh? I'm saying that you are accusing me of making these forums [plural] a toxic place... me... just me... and if I wasn't here it would all be lovely and nice... and even the Official Screenshot Thread (ONE I'M NOT IN) would be lovely and nice and fluffy, [REMOVED - Alex]

 

You seem to be as much of the problem as anyone else.

 

Thank you.

 

It's an interesting point you say that AP's quality has been decreasing over the years apart from BR era packs. You say the Electrostar and 700 packs have been "pretty terrible". Can you please point to how those packs are overall worse quality than what went before with the Electrostar sound pack for example? The difference is night and day as far as I can see.

I really can't see the argument that the quality is decreasing. It has consistently been on the up from early days, just some packs feature more than others but the general trajectory is still up. I just don't see the decrease you describe. The old sound packs were terrible in comparison!

It seems to me that by your own admission, you don't even enjoy TS anymore and just stick around here more as a general commentator on the scene. This makes it easy to look at packs in a rather scientific manner and say if they don't include x like y did, they must be terrible, without ever actually giving them a fair chance in a scenario. We all know it's fun to watch those videos on YouTube that go through every last tiny thing that's wrong with a new pack but that's only half the picture. For those who actually sit down and give them a drive with a view to enjoying themselves, their view is much more favourable. There just seems to be a certain section of the 'community' who like being edgelords and get their enjoyment and sense of belonging from being part of a group who are ultra-critical. Fair enough if so, but don't expect to be taken seriously as fair-minded and generous people.

 

I think certainly AP often make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

A complete new HST set would be lovely but what AP has done with the Kuju one it make it something enjoyable to drive and very useful with all the liveries and engine variants. It would be great to have a new one with new features though, as with a class 47.

I still can't understand why AP withdrew the class 47 sound pack as it transforms the class 47 and is required for many other improvements on the Kuju class 47 for example by Vulcan productions. Unless there is a new class 47 in the works it seems an odd decision to me.

Whilst DTG have improved generally in sound quality and functionality over the years there still is not anywhere the attention to detail you get with AP products and for that matter all the other third party providers including the steam third party providers. There are bugs, the class 323 for example which have not been fixed and I doubt will be. The Virgin class 47 pack had great sounds but in the cab it was far to loud and it was like you were driving with your head out of the window. Conversley one of my criticisms of AP packs are sometimes they are a bit too quiet. I doubt I would be using train simulator at all or very selectively if it wasn't for the third party providers and AP do make the more modern trains which I am not that interested in, enjoyable to drive. DTG do seem to make more effort in TSW so maybe they realise that the likes of AP and SSS have kept people interested in their products.

This forum has often had combative members, personally I would just ignore or block those who you disagree with. I certainly wouldn't be involved in a forum of a product I thought was "cr@p"!

 

If you have purchased a Sound Pack from AP you have it forever in you Download Page.
The only people who lose out on Sound Packs being withdrawn are those who did not buy them.
It might be they did not want them or they are new to the game

The problem for AP is -
Do you want this Class 86 EP pack for £16.99 or the Class 86 Sound pack for £4.99
If you don't drive the Class 86 or not very much you will go for the cheaper option
That costs AP in the long run with less sales for the EP Pack
If the Sound Pack Sales are going to distract from EP Pack Sales then AP might decide its not worth doing them.

 

I'd love a new HST as well, but find the EPs highly playable, even today. I did like that basic/elementary implementation of ATP, that featured in relevant liveries. That felt like a massive leap forward at the time and still provides something a bit different compared to most other stock.

They withdrew the 57 sound pack as well, and I quite like the old bodysnatchers Hard to tell what the withdrawal of the 57 SP actually means as a 57 doesn't appear to be a priority for them. But I think more folks would prefer a 47 anyway (I'd be up for a comprehensive 47). And despite the relatively local scope of the 165/166, that would sell like ice creams in a heatwave as well. But you and I have done the Turbo subject to death on other threads IIRC

 

I had forgotten about the class 57 sound pack being removed also, very strange. I could understand it if something to replace it was imminent but it obviously wasn't. A class 47 pack like the 37 I am sure would sell, a class 31 pack wouldn't go amiss either as I do find his class 31 enhancement seems a little quiet and the base model lacks quite a lot of functionality. A complete new first generation DMU enhancement pack would be a dream as the models we have are also quite old, but decent.

Then again I am sure we could ensemble a list as long as our arms of what we would like to see.

Yes I think we have said all we can on the Networker Turbo subject I am sure it will come up again at some point though.

 

not fully true.

if you own a pack and it gets removed. Yes you have the core bits of the pack to slow load but you are n missing the branding patch if you require a reinstall.

And please don’t use the “make a backup of the download” excuse that is not an answer what a correct answer is the user who spent money shoukd freely have access to the purchase they made fully this being all requirements for the pack to work fully as intended when purchased.

 

Yeah, I was confused as well. I'd love a proper 57 as it'd go well with drags on the WCML. And I dislike using what is essentially an old school 57/0 with no proper ETS on passenger service drags. Third parties have reskinned it and I credit them for that, but there's no sub for the real deal

Also I don't feel AP's old recording equipment quite did the 57 (or 67 EP for that matter) proper justice. At idle, they're still pretty loud but also quite grainy. I was in Marylebone a lot when the 67s were in there and have been in Paddington many a time as the 57-powered Night Riviera services have been preparing to move off. They may be EMD powered but they do make a racket at idle.

And agreed re: a more full on Class 31. I saw them as a kid on parcels at the old St Pancras, and whilst the sounds are generally correct, they are way too quiet and the loco is lacking in features as you say. Same could be said for the Class 56, I think.

Edit: a proper 57 would also be a cracking addition for late night/early morning scenarios on the Cornish Main Line, which is very good in my opinion.

 

I don't quite agree with that. It's impossible for any digital provider to guarantee something being available forever so it seems common sense to me to keep your own backup. In my opinion, the ability to download is at the point of sale, anything after that is a bonus unless the provider explicitly says they will provide you with eternal downloads for x time.

Anyway, I hear AP are more than happy to send links for discontinued extra stock/branding if requested.

 

Exactly this.

Excuse me, I bought a car from here 20yrs ago can I re-acquire it as I seem to have lost it somewhere along the line..
Certainly Sir just go and grab one from the showroom anytime you want one, after all you did pay for it..

Digital property is the only thing I know of where it's (assumed) someone else's (i.e. supplier) fault if you (i.e consumer) lose it or break it and can't re-acquire it.

 

Backup/storage of software is also necessary to protect against the supplier ceasing to exist.

 

IMO AP meet us halfway by holding the initial installation of the main pack in our download pages when it's discontinued. And if for proven owners, they email the freebies, that should be sufficient to keep them happy.

Their overall business model may be a different discussion but they don't seem to be sticking two fingers up at folks who have previously paid

 

I keep at least two backups of my assets and content folder and all my paid and freeware downloads. I don't think it is incumbent on a provider to keep every piece of software infinitely available although most of them seem to for the most part.

 

I think most people will disagree with your view that you don't need to backup any software you download.
What will you do if AP, or any other provider, went out of business - just say "oh well, never mind"?

 

My opinion which I am entitled to j should have full access to content I have purchased.

 

You do have full access to it though, at time of purchase.
What you're arguing is that the seller should have a copy of it readily available to redownload whenever and wherever you choose, this is not part of the sale agreement or terms of service, if the seller chooses to store it on their servers indefinitely then that's their choice not their obligation.

If you can't look after or keep safe digital property that you've bought then that's on you not them.

 

Who is arguing ?????
If they can keep a copy of the original purchase on your account then they should be able to upload the branding pack required as well it’s a very small file at the end of the day.

Show me in the purchase agreement where it says it is my responsibility to keep a back up please ? I must have missed that clause in the terms and conditions.


My opinion and I am entitled to it I am not asking you to agree with me neither do I need to agree with you.