Tsw 3 - An Insult To The Tsw Community

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Typhomat, Aug 10, 2022.

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  1. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    I have Cities XL vibes….

    The pricing for this game and the features included is a travesty for those who have been around for a long time. I remember 10 years ago when we were told there was a benefits program being developed for those who had accumulated DLC for TS Classic. 10 years later and DTG continues to attempt to steal from the pockets the community that supports it.

    The fact that there is NO discount for existing owners of TSW 2, which is this a port of regardless of how much the ‘new game’ line gets pushed is sad.

    The fact the only discounted content that exists is with the Spirit of Steam content, and not the half of SEHS a lot of folks already have speaks a lot for how DTG feels about it s long time players.

    The fact that DTG provides an easy play feature that you have to purchase the $50 version to get, and not offer to existing players is another insult.

    Sure, there are new features, some that devs include for free on updates on other games, but this is the same game with a paid update. Reused content that doesn’t benefit long time players. They know we exist by our save games, but they don’t show respect for the community that build them.
     
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  2. w2sjw

    w2sjw Active Member

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    I'm disappointed in hearing that there will not be a discount for current TSW2 owners. The reason I bought TSW2 at first announcement is because as a TSW2020 owner, we got a discount.

    I hope they change their mind on this.
     
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  3. karlack26

    karlack26 Well-Known Member

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    If I knew Tsw3 was coming out in September I would not have bought Tsw2 last month. You know companies often hint at the next game several months or years ahead of time. Here we get a announcement 3 weeks before release. Give people more heads as to the shelf life of products you are selling.
     
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  4. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    The existence of TSW3 had been leaked and discussed about within the community and forums for roughly several weeks now.

    Also, you will not be losing out on anything. The content you bought on TSW2 will be carried over to the new game just fine.
    It's like you're basically paying for 2 brand new routes, a route extension, and a bunch of other additions sprinkled in.
    TSW2 will continue to work just fine as you bought it, even if you decide not to purchase TSW3.
     
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  5. DukeSD

    DukeSD New Member

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    I bought the Deluxe Edition for 54, figure that's 4 new routes (didn't buy Spirit of Steam yet) and a bunch of Locos, I'm okay with it.
     
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  6. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I would love for someone who follows this line of thinking to explain to me where they get this idea that they are entitled to large feature updates and improvements on a product released two years ago. This seems to be a line of thinking prevalent in the sim community especially, more so than other genres of gaming. Should I insist when Ubisoft comes out with the next Assassin's creed game that it shouldn't be a new game at all, but rather just a free update because I already bought an Assassin's Creed game a couple of years ago? Or maybe next time I go out to dinner and order food I'll insist that all future orders at that restaurant be free as well. Many people here seem to want TSW to essentially be a Live Service platform like Destiny, but without having to pay for the live service and changes that come with it. It's like they believe that the developers at Dovetail games ought to work for free on new content and features because they spent the equivelent of dinner at Applebee's or Nando's a couple years ago.

    I do not understand where this line of thinking comes from and I do not agree with it. People deserve to be paid for their work and when they invest significant time and money into creating something new, it is fair if they decide to sell it rather than give it away for free. We've already had significant feature updates and additions in TSW2 completely for free. DTG this go around have created a number of large new additions to the core gameplay that they feel go beyond the scope of bug fixes and small quality of life improvements and they want to be compensated for them if you want to use them. This is fair. If you do not feel this is worth your money, then keep playing TSW2 and do not buy TSW3. You paid a sum of money and were given a product that you got good use out of and that was supported and improved over time. You are owed nothing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
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  7. karlack26

    karlack26 Well-Known Member

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    I bought the game July 2nd, thinking this game looked interesting, I was mostly interested in Spirit of Steam more then modern trains.
    I was look forward to more steam content.
    I think July 5th the leak on the live stream occurred. I still thought the next game was several months out.
    What company announces a new game 3 weeks before release.
    If I knew the next version of the game was coming out in 2 months after purchase I would not have purchased the game. I was sitting on the fence about it , If I knew the game I just bought would not be getting any new DLC and will not have any significant updates with new features 2 months later i would not have bought it.
    This is bad business practice.
    DCS World base game is free and still gets updates to the core game and you don't have rebuy the same game to get new dlc.
    Cites skylines has been out since 2012 and you don't have to buy the base game over and over to get new dlc. They even update the base game with some free features and some paid. Similar thing with all Paradox games.
    DTG are reselling the same game and locking new dlc behind it. Why not just put out those new lines as new DLC and just update base game with the new features ?
     
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  8. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    This was done because of backlash over how the Rush Hour bundle was handled last year. That was announced in May, when much of the bundle was released after August. In between that time, the original scope of the project had to be scaled back a bit because things in development can easily change.
    Now here we are, watching them take the opposite approach.

    Beyond that, you don't have to rebuy Spirit of Steam or any other DLC you own, as those will be carried over if you decide to upgrade to TSW3 (unless you specifically purchase the deluxe edition).
    The new game offers new additions and tweaks and two brand new routes and a reworked third one, I don't see how that is "reselling the same game" when you'll be able to do plenty of things in one game that you can't in the other.
    The choice is entirely within our hands, TSW2 will remain in the same state as you've purchased it.
     
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  9. aliceint#1858

    aliceint#1858 Member

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    If someone sold you a car on the promises that it will have 10 features, then tells you they need 2 years to do it, then 2 years later they tell you that they will sell you a new car with those 10 features but only 2 of the original 10 features offered where even installed in those 2 years, on top of that, every time that person worked on your car, they broke parts of it in the "name of fixing it" meanwhile for the people who never bought the new car, they are stuck with a car that lacks any of the options that where promised at launch. this is basicly how DTG has treated TSW as a series, TSW1 has been abandoned in a very broken state, TSW2 is being abandoned while having a list of outstanding problems miles long. and now we are being asked to pay for updates that where promised to us 4 years ago. I personally dont care about the new routes, I just want the routes I payed for to work. SOS is still only a third of what was promised. honestly TSW is just a joke at this point. you pay alot and get bad quality, at least with TSC I have routes which work with much higher and more complex and correct (all of which not made by DTG) and I find that the other Train sims that I play are far better across the board then what DTG put out, just on smaller scale. if DTG ever had a real competitor, say MSTS2022/2023 they would have to shape up.
     
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  10. karlack26

    karlack26 Well-Known Member

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    One more time if I knew a newer version of the game I was buying was about to be released in two months I would have waited to buy the new version. Because the version I just bought will no longer be supported for future content.
    So one more time, I bought the game thinking that new content would be coming.

    TSW2 and its DLC is half finished mess as it is. Cant run Peninsula with out it crashing which is a common problem, So i save often then hope that loading a save wont cause a red single that wont change.
    The game in general runs poorly and does not look that good other then the train models. So I run ix DX 12 mode but that causes more crashes in Peninsula.
    So my choices are, I can have lots of stutter in Peninsula with less crashes or a smooth Peninsula with guarantee crashes.
    Spirit of Steam is half cooked. Trains are empty, hardly any other trains run the line. The scenery looks bad, draw distance is terrible but no crashes here. Oh and the time table is impossible to be on time for, unless you drive and brake like a lunatic and dont care that only one car is at the platform.
    Oakville subdivision you cant even fill the fuel cars any more. Its broken unplayable waiting for that preservation update.
    The game is supposed to be sim and it does and not even support direct input. Imagine any other sim game that you cant hook up controllers too. Which i guess that's not coming to TSW2, Perhaps TSW 4 next year will have direct input support.
    I have no interest in the new content. The content I have is half assed as it was.
    So no I will not be buying TSW3 and I probably wont buy any future DTG. Now that i see how they operate.

    Every other game company announces big releases months or years ahead of time if DTG cant do that that's on DTG.
    DTG is making us pay for DLC we don't want to have access to future dlc or game improvements we may want.
    They could have easily offered these new routes as stand alone DLC with the new features and engine improvements just added to the base game. Like what every other companies does that's based on selling DLC to fund future development.
     
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  11. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    This is a great question, it's not that we are 'entitled' to anything here, it's a give and take issue instead. In TS Classic, we saw updates year after year for free. This included fixes for existing content too. Never was TS Classic broken up into paid versions year over year. Now, we are seeing paid updates get brought into the game.

    Next, DTG has promised features since the TSW demo was something you could access if you bought a certain package of TS Classic years ago. Not all of that has come in the original version. Instead, we see now you have to pay for features you thought were going to eventually come in original version. It's like tactics Mr. Razzle Dazzle practices at that famous flight sim developer, but on a whole new scale. It's one thing to promise and underdeliver while being late, it's another to expect to pay for what we thought we ere buying into initially.

    Moving on to your misplaced AAA game comparison. You aren't getting the same Assassins Creed game a few years later. You are getting a new game with a new story, a new map. The games are independent, not linked. Let's make your comparison make more relatable and look at something like Forza Horizon, where some of the cars get re-used similar to how DTG uses their trains. Sure, it's not 100% new from a content perspective, the cars are reused, the menus are familiar, but the experience, the story line, the entire experience from a game perspective is new, not re-used. They aren't reusing maps, they are instead creating new experiences worth the cost of the base game. A player who played 1-4 now buying 5 is getting all the same new experiences someone who bought just 5 gets. It's not like Forza is reusing the Australia map over and over. Going further, they even reward players for owning prior games. DTG doesn't do such things.

    Let's move to the game now look at the common example: If I bought the SEHS, and I want the other two routes, I have to pay for SEHS again in buying the standard game. If I bought one of the country packs, I can't complete my collection. Sure, I'm getting new content, but a lot of the content in that base game that I'm paying for is content I already own. DTG could solve this by selling licenses through their store based off what users already have, they have said they have this information. The could attempt a complete my collection based on the DLC, but instead, they choose not to find a way to reward customers who would be getting the content regardless. Why should DTG consider this? They've been promising it for a decade.

    No one is saying DTG's employees don't deserve to be paid, I'm not saying that nor am I promoting it. Instead, I would rather see them continue to build a base game, incorporate new features that improve the base game for free to meet the expectations of the original game, and through that promote DLC purchasing. Why though do games like Cities:Skylines or the ATS/ETS series have constant free updates? People pay for the DLC because of what the dev does for the community. DTG instead looks to it's loyal fans to pay for the same content over and over, hoping they will look beyond this and want to continue to support the product.

    If I bought TSW1/TSW2 based off what DTG promises, and now puts behind the paywall of TSW3, I think there is some respect that should be shown to those players. Remember though, Paul Jackson is the CEO, and he used to work for EA Games.....
     
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  12. BlaringHorn

    BlaringHorn Well-Known Member

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    Well, we support them by buying DLC that they release, and that isn't free (I have bought quite a lot for both the original and TSW2). Your argument would hold more water if we had only "needed" to pay once for the base game. But if Dovetail want to release a "new" game and leave the the old one in limbo every two years, sure they are "entitled" to that. I mean, if people are okay with that and are willing to pay for stuff that might have been released as a patch (with the new routes being paid ala Rush Hour), good for them. But other people might lose confidence and good will with such a developer (but then again gamers seem to be gluttons for punishment).

    I did buy TSW2 at release, and this reminds me too much of the transition we had from TSW 2020 to TSW2, and all the promises that came with it (I'm sure they made a point on how TSW3 wasn't a "thing" in the immediate future as well). It doesn't fill me with confidence that in two years time, they won't do the same thing again. Which makes me want to wait and see how this TSW3 situation will develop in the future.
     
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  13. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I am absolutely fine with DTGs policy to upgrade the basic game and charge for it with the addition of new routes. Personally I am going to buy a single route package, pay more then a single route but get a ton of new features with it.

    However, I do see the point that stuff that is broken within the older version of the game can not be abandoned, as it was paid for and DTG still holds liable for this (btw, also from a legal standpoint). But with all the usual bashing going on already, I am wondering, has DTG already said that they will not fix any broken contend for TSW2?
     
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  14. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I would like to see a 7th included sitting at a price point between the standard package and the regional packages which included just the German & US routes if I am totally honest.
    But no I don't the DTG are stealing from us, they aren't forcing anyone to pay anything, if you feel the prices are too high then wait around as I'm sure sales and discounts will come along at sone point
     
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  15. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Meh, I have a bigger problem with the selection of routes in the TSW3 bundle, as none of them really appeal to me. Personal taste, I know, but still a dissapointment.
     
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  16. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    Good grief. If TSW3 had graphics that were so good that you couldn't tell it apart from real life, routes that were 200 miles long with incredibly detailed timetables and trains, and it only cost £20 I guarantee some people on this forum would still find something to moan about.

    For what it's worth, I think it's a big enough upgrade to warrant a purchase. Is it perfect? God no. But I think it's a much better upgrade than TSW2 was to TSW2020. At least you can actually tell the two apart looking at screenshots.
     
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  17. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Happy to pay this money for 2 new routes and an extension.

    Still wait for the answer if i would need to rebuy purchaised tsw2 content for having the tsw3 update.
     
  18. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As I just said in another thread, £25 for a two route package with Cajon and the German route, as someone who already owns SEHS and SoS, might just convince me to make a Day 1 purchase. But £40 for the standard package, no sirree.
     
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  19. heliq

    heliq Active Member

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    What's wrong with you people? All DLC from the second part will be available here! These are 3 new routes + improved graphics and features.
    Stop whining.

    Already pre-ordered, and looking forward to playing with the new weather and lighting =)
     
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  20. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but I can't see how this helps your case.

    DTG is releasing a new game with new maps and a new train (and hopefully fingers crossed) a few updated ones, let's say this is comparable to releasing Forza Horizon 5.

    On top of that you are also getting for free the equivalent of a remaster of old maps (let's say Scotland and Australia) which will have the new weather system, for free.

    The actual problem here (following the Forza comparison) is that people don't like the Mexico map, but want Horizon 5 features like Raytracing on Australia and Scotland, and want them for free.

    The criticism that there should have been a way to only upgrade the core (without having to buy a route) makes sense, although I don't think it makes financial sense at DTG, otherwise they would have done it, but it's not as bad as I think you are making it.

    And before you say that Forza Horizon 5 has more innovation than TSW3, one costs €35 to get the cheapest bundle, the other costs €60, and one will sell a lot more copies than the other.

    The solution is to either bite the bullet and pay for a DLC you don't want, or wait and see if they make the core update a standalone purchase further down the line for a cheaper price.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
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  21. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Yes its a fair price for what we get. Nobody wants to pay, but a ton of threads about lack of scenery & details of routes.
     
  22. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    This is just better than normal price for 2 new routes and all other stuff. I do not feel insulted and I feel like I am part of the community for sure.
     
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  23. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think of this differently (having been around train sim for seven years and TSW from day one)
    When you buy "the game" you're essentially buying the routes and trains that come with it. The game itself is essentially free.
    So if you bought TSW2 in June/July you got Bakerloo et al for £40, not too bad, and now if you buy TSW3 you get a german fast route, SEHS (with the 465) and Cajon Pass for another £40, so again, not bad

    The content of the game is all in the DLC (be it routes or locos) so "the game" wouldn't give you anything in itself.

    But yeah I agree, the people saying "It should be free!" are kind of kidding themselves.
     
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  24. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Good for you, but I rarely pay "normal price" for any routes, especially not for a high speed one-trick pony, a slow freight one-trick pony, and an extended version of a route I already own without any new rolling stock.

    What's good value for you, isn't necessarily good value for someone else. Just because DTG puts a price tag on it, doesn't mean that's also the value of something.
     
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  25. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    The purchase is not mandatory. BR o7
     
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  26. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I guess they have to make business decisions which can never suit everybody. But the solution to your problem would be not to invest into TSW3…
     
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  27. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    True, you can never suit everybody, but making the base route selection of 2 one-trick ponies and an extended existing route might be focusing a bit too much on niche groups.

    At the moment I'm considering wether the TSW3+SoS edition might be worth it for me. I guess it depends on the details on TSW3s features that'll be explained in the next few weeks.
     
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  28. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not sure on the one trick pony comment. From what they were saying on the stream last night the DE route is yawn during the day (lots of high speed green lights) but in the evening / night you get some decent freight runs with loops and holding, so NOT green light specials

    The thrill of US railroading doesn't hold for me. I don't see doing 25mph down a hill trying to hold 10000 tons of boxed freight appealing, but there are people who do, and Cajon pass is indeed one of those routes.

    SEHS extensions have been asked for for ages, and IF it hadn't been tied to TSW3 and IF they said "here's a route extension and the 465 for a tenner" people wouldn't be complaining...

    Value is in the eye of the beholder
     
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  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Anyone that much into US railroading probably already has the Run 8 version (plus the other 400 odd miles of contiguous SoCal and Arizona route), along with the other attributes that game offers - hump operations, local traffic and industry/customer servicing.
     
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  30. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, running freight trains on a high speed track sounds a tad boring, especially when it can only be done in the dark. But true, I guess at night Kassel-Wurzburg turns into another kind of one-trick pony, making it a two-trick pony, depending on how you look at it. Still, no freight during the day and certainly no regional passenger trains make this route pretty limited in the types of services you can do on it. It certainly isn't as diverse as Köln-Aachen.

    Agreed, although TSW2 Sand Patch Grade offered a similar experience.

    Certainly true. I don't mind them doing a SEHS extension, but adding it into the TSW3 bundle, combined with the other two routes, means TSW3 has little interesting content to me. After the whole hype they did, I was hoping for something else. I guess expectations were raised too high, and that leaves me dissapointed. And while TSW2 Bakerloo line certainly was a one-trick pony, it was a unique kind of one-trick pony at the time of release.

    Agreed, I'm not complaining about the price tag. I had just hoped TSW3 route bundle would be a tad more... interesting...
     
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  31. StokesJH

    StokesJH Active Member

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    You mean, anyone playing on a PC. As far as I know, Run8 isn’t available on consoles. So, TSW is offering the US freight experience also to console players.
     
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  32. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    This is all I see when everyone keeps going on about a discount

    upload_2022-8-10_8-55-56.gif

    times I owned a previous product but didn’t get a discount when I replaced it with an update (which wasn’t forced to buy but I chose)

    car
    Milk
    Bread
    Sofa
    Bedding
    Mrs


    All of these things I reviewed on its own merits and bought at a price I thought was acceptable for the value it delivered. On the occasions it did not meet my needs or was too expensive no cash changed hands.

    I didn’t moan in the supermarket that my milk didn’t feature the dredges of my last bottle for example
     
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  33. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Fair point, but I am a member of the PC master race! Well more of a potato than a PC these days…
     
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  34. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why that shoudl stop TSW doing a version of it. There have been plenty of Flight sims over the years, Microsoft made another and nobody said they shouldn't

    Oh I agree. Not my thing at all. Give me some variation of services (and I don't mean a two minute drive to the first station...). Even long distance high speed trains get delays!

    At least on this route you'll get some decent long high(er) speed runs

    Again, had the extension been done to TSW2 SEHS nobody would be saying "but I wanted..."
    I guess if they'd done the WCML from Euston to Birmingham with the 390 people would be happier even though that's also another high speed nothingness to me unless they included the regionals and freight.
     
  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Processor delivered yesterday, motherboard being delivered today... New processor seventy percent faster than the old. Maybe mine will be more of a sprinter from tomorrow (maybe tonight)
     
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  36. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Be careful you might get your thread locked like mine for a mere hint of TSW3 descent.

    Best all pray to the new golden idol that is tsw3 or face the rath of the TSW gods.

    But in fairness mine was locked for being too cheeky (tsw4 speculation)

    Everyone's got to eat, pay the mortgage etc, thus just their way of keeping everyone employed for another year. Good luck to them
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
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  37. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I'm left with the bitter aftertaste of having been supporting the company by buying the routes on launch day, because it seems to me that I'm being a bit of a fool here.
    I bought SOS for €30 only two months ago, and now with the deluxe edition of TSW 3 and the pre-order discount I could get it for only €9 difference to what I'm going to pay for the standard edition. Plus as an owner of SEHS and the 465 I am also being penalised by not getting any bonus and having to buy it again if I want the Germany and US route. All this makes me feel like an idiot for a moment because I don't get the money for free and I don't own a tree where it grows.

    I know that nobody is forcing us to buy, but I feel that these discount policies penalise the most loyal and committed consumer of the TSW project.

    For the record, the price of TSW 3 does not seem expensive to me, with the 2 new routes and the extension of SEHS, but what I have said about SOS is making me rethink my approach to future releases.

    From now on, it's over for me to buy at full price, except in specific cases such as TSG releases that are worth it because of their quality and great work. For everything else, I will wait for a discount that is usually available in a short time and also without having to suffer many errors, making me feel like a betatester on many occasions, as has happened with SOS.
     
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  38. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Clickbait title for the entitled :(

    Just wait and see. Then buy it or not.
     
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  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Sam said so on the stream last week... Wait for sales.
     
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  40. countcussy

    countcussy Well-Known Member

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    Spot on. The whining on this forum at times is unbelievable.
    Don`t like it, don't buy it.
    Some of you really do not get it. DTG are in this to make money, (As they should be), not for your happiness.
     
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  41. BeastyBill88

    BeastyBill88 Well-Known Member

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    What gets me with TSW3 being released is the new features (lighting, dynamic weather, etc) while they look great and are definitely an improvement on the effects in TSW2, surely they could have been added as a core update to TSW2 instead of releasing a whole new game for them, I mean it's not like they've moved the new game to the Unreal engine 5 or anything where it's not compatible with the current/older version. Saying that I'll probably get it, just not on day 1 I'll wait until the sales and the price has been dropped.
     
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  42. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Well, the recommended system requirements went up quite a bit, so not sure just updating TSW2 would be a good thing...
     
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  43. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    What a discussion here.... You have seen really nothing so far.... Only a trailer and you can buy it or not.... You can play TSW2 further on and the preseverd collection will fixed for both games. Do not so silly DTG ask a fair amount off money for a good job!
     
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  44. BeastyBill88

    BeastyBill88 Well-Known Member

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    Oh did they? I didn't know that the requirements had gone up :|
     
  45. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Recommended specs went up quite a bit. Minimum specs seems to have stayed the same.
     
  46. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    How on earth can they offer a discount when the price per route is only about £13 in the bundle. That’s not counting the training route and the upgrades.

    Perhaps the Ui upgrade should be free as the current one really is shocking but nothing else should be.

    I feel it is very good value.
     
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  47. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I almost laughed with the recommended specs said a 3xxx class GPU...
    "Hey, I'll just pay £500 on a single component to get this game to run at speed"...
    Yikes
     
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  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I've always seen the price as "game core = free, cost = DLC included". Others may differ
     
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  49. BeastyBill88

    BeastyBill88 Well-Known Member

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    Lol minimum spec GPU is a 750Ti, I had one of those in my old PC and I couldn't even play TSW2 with everything on low. Then again for the recommended specs GPU you need a 3070 :o my 3060 might even get put through it's paces with TSW3 then.
     
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  50. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    2 new routes + extension* with one of the routes with no new rolling stock. Improved graphics and some new features welcomed. But imo I was expecting more for this build up and announcement of TSW3. We've yet to see gameplay or hear if any significant audio improvements have been made either. I can't help but feel yet again a lot of us might be initially disappointed.
     
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