Spirit Of Save

To TrainSim-Matt and DTG JD

In recent update streams, you have finally seriously acknowledged the save game feature not working, and made a commitment to doing serious testing of it with the aim to resolve the issues that prevent saving much of the time. The fact that you talked about it in consecutive streams really gave me hope that you are genuinely going to look at resolving the broken save system.

Now, with the sudden announcement of a TSW3, of course I'm left wondering:

1) Is the save game fully functioning in TSW3?
2) As 1) is probably unlikely (if all purchased DLC is indeed compatible with the new base game), are you continuing to work towards fixing save games?
3) Will the save game functionality be fixed in TSW2 for those who don't want to invest (at least not yet) in TSW3?

I have to say, I did take some umbrage with two comments made in one of the live streams. Firstly, that you aren't making any promises to fix it. I disagree; I think it's entirely realistic to make that promise, no matter how many patches it takes to get it working across routes. There is no good reason it wouldn't be possible to fix, just as there was no valid reason why a core (and standard) feature should never have worked to begin with, and testing, design documentation and requirements put in place to ensure it worked before release and on all routes going forwards.

The other comment was that, to paraphrase, you know it can get a bit tedious to sit and drive a long route for a couple of hours. Something along those lines. It has nothing to do with getting bored. I, as hopefully most people do, have a life beyond gaming. I have a family, friends, work, other activities... I simply don't have the time to sit for more than maybe 30 minutes most times I switch on. That's why I need to save and know I can resume without issues. Not to mention unexpected interruptions. And, no, contrary to someone's advice, it isn't feasible to leave the PC and game running to return to it -- when? 24 hours later? 2 days? 2 weeks?

And here's the thing with TSW3: you're making the routes longer. Great for many people. But not for everyone. Routes are getting longer, my available time isn't.

So, with the release of TSW3, please don't let the broken save issue wither and die. Until I see serious commitment to a core problem like this -- and good results -- I'm really disinclined to pay for the upgrade, when I haven't all that long bought TSW2 and add-on routes I daren't even play because I can't save progress.

 

You may have noticed that the perma-triggered masses don't read any road maps, watch update videos or seem to have any rationale.

 

The answers from the roadmap are:

1) No.
2) Unclear.
3) No.

 

Can I ask how I get my free copy of SEHS, as I already own the TSW 2 version?

I quote from the roadmap: "you'll get the updated version for Train Sim World 3 absolutely free with the purchase of any Train Sim World 3 bundle."

If I want the other 2 routes included in TSW3, I pay £39.99. If a new player or a player without SEHS wants to buy TSW3 with all 3 routes they pay £39.99. Worse still with the discount, an extra £5 buys them SOS which has only sold for £24.99 at the cheapest.

So, if I am getting SEHS ABSOLUTELY FREE, why am I being forced to pay for it? Or is it just free for everyone regardless of prior ownership with standard or deluxe editions?

 

I know it's off topic but the sunset with clouds looks amazing.

 

Identifiable by their keeping a torch and a pitchfork ready beside the front door.

 

TQUOTE="DTG JD, post: 517827, member: 24920"]Hey - it's worth reading today's Roadmap article, as it talks about Save Game and our next steps.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I didn't see a new road map last time I checked, but just saw the link to it on your YouTube channel too.

Either way, I still wanted to make my point, especially with regards to why save games are so essential to probably the majority of people. It's about not having time above all else.

Good to see you're all still on the case. My hope (and the spirit of save) lives on

 

I think trainman was pointing out the disjunct between "absolutely free" and the fact you can't get the "free" update without paying money.

 

Yeah but I hope the lack of station lighting is addressed!!

 

Could there not be a bundle with just the new routes (German and US)?

Or a complete the collection?

I'm stuck either paying £29.99 for one route, just so I can get SEHS free (but miss out on the other route, and 4 days early access) or paying for SEHS AGAIN...?

 

Yeah I'm a little concerned too that there will be no save game option at release.

As buggy as the save option is currently (I've had many a red light issue after loading a save) it actually helps mitigate other bugs. I have frequent sudden CTDs on Peninsula Corridor for example and saving at each stop has allowed me to finish several services after one of these crashes. On Horseshoe Curve with the recent derailing issues I save every few miles when travelling from Gallitzin to Altoona and again its allowed me to reload and finish after inexplicably derailing.

I think the save functionality has saved me from wasting more hours than its cost me with it's own issues. I hope this will be a high priority to reimplement post release.

DW

 

Agreed. While the save system usually can't handle a reload on busy, complex routes like Dresden or BML, it generally works on simpler low traffic runs like Sand Patch, Sherman or LGV

 

This was spelled out on last nights stream (11th Aug).

Better to just assume that it doesn't work as intended and be pleasantly surprised if they ever get it fixed.

 

Yes I have seen that and I am a bit shocked. We all know about the problems with the save function, but still in 80-90% of the cases it will not cause fatal issue that make you unable to complete a service. There are enough other bugs that prevent you to complete services. There are a fair number of cases where the Save function has smaller glitches, e.g. with the safety systems no longer working or for instance the wipers are still on but the animation stopped and you need to reapply them. These small issues are simple to test and solve I can simply do that if I would be a beta tester.

So the arguments are not as valid as you might think. While introducing longer routes we need the save function badly. We also have bad experience with the time it takes to solve issues, even after the beautiful words Matt said about it. Without a clear time schedule and hard deadlines I simply cannot accept this and I will not spend any money on TSW3, how much I like the new features.

 

You took the words out of my mouth Rudolf.

So I repeat again to Matt, JD, Alex and anyone who is listening - Do not release TSW3 without the current save game mechanism still in place. Please concede to your customer feedback on this point. Or in the case of myself and many others, ex-customers until we can save the run.

 

It boils down to this: the existing save functionality is bad, but it's still better than nothing.

In fact, it works for me 100% of the time without fail in these crucial situations: trying to bring a heavy freight to a stop with the marker placed bang on top of a red signal. I always save as I approach, just in case, and the restore is never a problem because there really isn't anything to screw up.

 

I will also add to, I no longer have the trust in DTG, as a company, to actually deliver the savegame fix in a timely manner... you burned that trust with the botched releases of Rush Hour (London Commuter still isn't a rush hour route), the insane time some of the stuff from preserved crew were stuck in testing, the technical reports forum being full of game affecting bugs there aren't fixed for more than a year (like the banking comm not working on clinchfield https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/clinchfield-distributed-power-banking.39244/#post-513011). It took you over 4 months to fix default state for the PZB on Talent 2 on rapid transit... And why is it that after 4 months, still, one of the first scenarios in sos jorney requires me to step out of the loco and manually release brakes on the braked wagons that are missplaced in a middle of unbraked consist?

And now you want me to trust you that you will actually work on the savegame functionality, and fix it in a reasonable time? Like, why?

I don't believe that releasing a "new TSW" will drastically change the way you work, prioritize, and schedule stuff, so... How can I trust DTG they will actually dedicate the effort to fixing the savegame, once is it, conveniently, not a TSW 3 functionality?

 

DTG JD and TrainSim-Matt :

Having watched the update stream from last night (while working, so might have missed a couple of points), I have to say I am going to reserve any cynicism that I almost shared with others like Winzartem above. I totally understand distrust, because I still feel a bit like I'm teetering on the fence -- but I'm going to keep myself firmly upright on it.

With the discussion of save game last night, and the fact it's been raised now in several consecutive streams, I truly believe TrainSim-Matt is dedicated to resolving this long-standing issue. Yes, I believe the issue just points to bad development planning (and testing) from the outset of the TSW franchise, but Matt wasn't in charge then and he's clearly seriously investigating it.

I'm also taking what was said as a true promise and dedication to getting save game reinstated, and across all routes, old and new. As I said already (either here or in another thread), I don't care how many patches it takes, I and so many others need a reliable save game feature to know we can play and know our time won't be wasted by red lights that never change.

A query from, I think, JD was how frequently these issues occur. The only issue that's stood out to me (and not to ignore problems with wipers and other systems not reinstating) is getting a permanent red signal somewhere along the route when resuming. How frequently? On every save I tried -- and now I'll add a caveat: except the very last one, which was a few months back, and the last time I played TSW2 at all. Here's the difference (perhaps): I read someone's theory, which was kind of buried away, that if you stop at your next station, exit the train onto the platform, then save (while passengers are boarding?), it will resume successfully. So I did that at each station, exited the software, launched the sim and reloaded, and doing that several times in a row, I managed to get to the end of the route on my save game.

Now, I haven't been back to try it since, and I can't recall which route it was, but it might be worth getting the newly formed Save Game Bug Squad (forming this Monday coming?) to test that out. It could be a total coincidence. In fact, if I do get some of this fabled Me Time over the weekend, I'm going to try it out again myself on a fairly busy route.

In the meantime, I meant what I said that I simply can't invest in TSW3 until I see save game being reinstated in a reliable condition. And I really do want to invest in it, because just the dynamic weather is a game changer, and the fact it will be introduced to all existing routes is fantastic. I just need to know for sure that, if I have to shut down after just 15 minutes of play, I can safely do that and resume later

 

Interesting theory there. Could it be by exiting your train - I assume using the E key to actually stand up and leave - it puts it into a less complex state which in turn assists in the restoration.

 

Yes, using E to stand up and leave the train. It's someone else's claim, and it worked -- or it coincidentally worked and has nothing to do with any of that lol But obviously, if true, it can't be accepted as a "fix".

 

I might have to reinstall TSW2, try this out on the routes where it is an issue.

If proven, all the more reason to leave the current save game in place for TSW3 until the new version is ready.

 

Can you recall specific problematic routes that I might try (should I get even a bit of time)?

 

London to Brighton especially in the Up direction towards Victoria.
Dresden to Riesa.
SEHS.

 

Have watched that section and okay, I accept there seems to be a genuine desire to fix this.

However it doesn't change the fact the issue has been constantly kicked down the road to this point, or it's like that stubborn Sudoku in the puzzle book that you can't quite crack so you leave it while you do all the others before coming back. In other words, we would not be where we are now had the problem been given a bit more priority. Of course with the real chance this is going to affect TSW3 sales, the cynic in me thinks that's the main reason it's now at the top of the list.

However none of the earnest explanation in that clip convinced me as to the sense of removing it altogether in the present state and I maintain it should be retained as a stopgap measure.

 

Ah, I guess I spoke to soon. It does sound like there is some effort going into it, thats good to hear.

DW

 

Good intentions expressed on a PR exercise, not quite the same thing.

 

If good intentions were sleepers we'd have a new route by now...

 

SO they said the performance is the same as in TSW2 ?
So still extremely badly optimized?

 

There is clearly a groundswell of negative opinion on the removal of save game.
I think we have to hold DTG's feet to the fire on this one, whether it's reinstatement or a full court press to fix it promptly. To many of us it's a very fundamental issue without which we cannot fully engage with and enjoy the game.

 

Exactly. It is a fundamental feature, that should have either worked properly at the launch of the original TSW or a week or so later with the first patch. How an integral and, for many gamers these days, essential feature made it this long with no attention (or intention to fix) is staggeringly unbelievable. Which is why my game dev brother pretty much spit his cup of tea across the room with disbelieving laughter when I told him.

And to see it removed now in TSW3, following past unkept promises of fixes, etc., is scepticism any surprise? An unwelcome feeling that this is a precursor to letting mention of it slide from updates, until finally saying, "What save game issues? We don't even have a save game feature. Dunno what you mean, Guvnor."

But as I said, I'm really trying to reserve my scepticism and believe in Matt. He really does seem genuinely serious.

I mean, it really will be possible to fix, and fix all routes slowly but surely. A pain, sure, but that isn't the players' issue -- it's one by their own design. And they must successfully resolve it, on TSW2 and 3.

 

I would really (x10) like to believe that the save game issue will be fixed promptly but, fully warranted or not, there is a real credibility gap between what is promised and what is delivered.
Think of the DPU issue with CRR, RH passengers in BLM and signalling on Boston.
The fact that the save game problem is only now being addressed after years of inaction and silence does not inspire confidence that it will be fixed any time soon.
But maybe we will be pleasantly surprised by a welcome early Christmas gift.

 

We certainly do need to be nicely surprised by action and actual, good results.

Reading these forums, I'm surprised DTG haven't caught the attention of the gaming industry press and user reviewers the kind of way Gran Turismo 7 did, where all the backlash and plummeting user review scores resulted in Polyphony Digital backtracking.

It's not too late to get seriously bad press, and I'd prefer they get their act together and deliver the multitude of bug fixes before it goes that far. There's no longer an excuse.

TSW 3 should be where the franchise rests for a long time now. Fix all bugs (for new routes and legacy DLC carried over), get the save game implemented properly, and maybe add new features and sorely needed optimisation over a lifespan of maybe 5 years before considering a TSW 4 -- which I would expect, at that point, to have a new core game engine, design philosophy, and considerably different features.

What did Matt say in the roadmap stream? TSW 3 is a momentous occasion? It really isn't. Fixing what you already had would have been a momentous occasion to celebrate.

 

I missed the bit about removing the save function for TSW3 at the point I pre-ordered, and I'm conflicted - one of the things I was looking forward to was the 2.5 hr freight run in the new US route, but there's no way I have that amount of time in one sitting. I'm not sure I really want to get Early Access if I'm going to have to restrict the runs I attempt to 30mins or less. Of course, I'm not saying there will be nothing to do because of this... but loudly promoting longer routes while quietly removing the ability to realistically many of the longer ones unless you have the luxury of being able to really clear the diary for 1hr+.

I don't doubt they want to fix it - no developer in their right mind would say otherwise - and I know in game development you can never truly guarantee a fix until it's in the code and thoroughly tested. I suspect this was one of the issues they were hoping to have fixed before announcing the game, and possibly why the short announce-release timeframe. It's possible they had to decide: release, then fix - or fix, then release. Given the games release calendar only gets busier from September, maybe they were forced into it because company financials forced them to; and the next clear release window may not be until late January, etc.

Either way, it's a big hole in any modern game, and given it's probably the same issue in TSW2 and therefore has been around for a long time (years but this point?) without them being able to pinpoint the issue and fix - well, I'm sure they will keep trying, but I'm hopeful rather than expectant.

Meanwhile, the lack of transfer of progress on routes from TSW2 --> TSW3 (again, almost certainly one of those things they wanted to get in, but haven't yet been able to...) means I'm now in a bit of limbo. I don't want to play TSW2, because there's a chance I'll need to do it all again in TSW3, and the completionist in me cries out in anguish at that prospect

Still, I am looking forward to TSW3, even if I decide to cancel the pre-order and wait until the save issue is sorted.

 

It was never badly optimized. TSW2 runs at 60fps at ultra on a 1060 and i7 4790k, with ini tweaks that increase the draw distance. That's impressive.

 

Okay testing the physically alight from the train (don't surrender) to save.
Thus far it has worked on BML. Saved a Brighton to Victoria run at Gatwick, resumed after tea and got through to Victoria with no issues. Green signals all the way until the approach and arrived a minute early.
Now I need to test Dresden to Riesa, also SEHS and DCZ where the last Journey scenarios I tried both bombed out on the save.

However I do feel this adds ammunition to the case for DTG to retain the current system as a stop gap and I would like to hope that will be the first thing they instruct the programmer(s) at tomorrow's meeting - get it back in.

 

It will be too late to put save system back in now, due to submission times for console platforms. I doubt they would put it back in for PC, but not console.

 

Then they should postpone release until they can. I somehow don't see that as a reason though, Even though we know TSW3 is now in external play testing, there still has to be a window for fixing any show stopper bug or glitch. And yes I would take it for PC only initially.

 

I really appreciate your taking the time to test this more than I had chance to. If this successful save scenario is consistently replicable on all routes, it gives me hope to start dipping into TSW2 again, even if it is a bit of a pain to disembark from the train at a station stop whenever you want to save -- but it's better than no save at all for the time being (hence I won't be investing in TSW3 -- take note, DTG).

I wonder if it's even necessary to leave the train, or is it simply pressing E to stand up that changes something that allows a successful save (assuming it does work every time, on every route)?

I think this is worth TrainSim-Matt and the team investigating and testing, in case it leads to a revelation in the code that might lead to a fix much faster that can be applied across every route easily in TSW2, and effect the reinstatement of save game in TSW3.

 

There's an outside chance they could get it set up for a console day one patch if they submit the certified version with the save function back in to console platforms this week (I think) - but it's cutting it fine. Personally I think they held up the announcement for as long as they could in order to try and get fixes in for key issues (such as saves, progression, etc) but ran out of time.
A delay past early-to-mid September is risky, because you start to get into AAA release season, so most non-AAA games prioritise releasing before this.

 

with no stuttering, and the sounds all playing nicely and at their proper volumes in the cab (hearing the sounds in the cab that you should and not just outside it...i.e. air compressors etc, and some sounds not looping badly??

I can get 120 - 130 fps out in the open on some routes, but still get the fps counter going red at certain points when i'm nearing big stations or junctions,
and more times than i can count in 5 minutes i get my GFX cards' monitor showing it totally unloading and loading back up (i.e. frequency, load, power consumption etc goes from ~80% to ~10% and back with each glitch/stutter)

I even get stuttering on the PS5, and i'd expect this game to be better optimized for that than the PC where no 2 users PC specs are the same.

 

Back to the Save Game...

I would also like to hear from DTG what their fallback position is? Assuming TSW3 does ship on 6th September without a working save function, what is your position if the programmers cannot solve the issue, either globally or on a route by route basis? Will you then reinstate the old save mechanism or is it regarded as gone for good? If the former then what is a reasonable time to allow for work on a new system - a month, 3 months, a year? Personally I would suggest if the issue cannot be resolved in 4 weeks, then the old system needs to be restored.

An answer from the company hopefully affirming this is Plan B, would be appreciated.

 

Off topic to the save feature, but this is interesting... A while ago in one of the "state of the game Q&A" streams, DTGs theory on the studdering was garbage collection and not asset loading. What you just described there means GC may not be the primary cause. Actually given the pause in GPU work, that's a CPU-GPU sync point, which tells me when assets are being loaded the game hasn't been optimized here. Ideally you want as to send as much as possible to the GPU in one go rather than multiple calls, and clearly asset loading isn't following this "rule of thumb".

 

Think we need to keep this OT to the Save Game if we can.
Start a separate thread for other issues?

 

When was the last time you encountered a red light-bugged save failure? You have been testing out the theory I found, re pressing E and exiting onto the platform to save at a station stop, and it's succeeded so far, as per my experience.

So I stayed up stupidly late, fighting to stay awake, and decided to test in the opposite way, i.e. saving at random points along the London Commuter route (first scenario), fully exiting the sim then reloading. So far saving has been successful on that scenario.

Maybe I just picked a scenario that always worked when saving anyway. I don't know. I wish I could remember exactly what routes and scenarios I was playing and saving on when I first began playing, when it was just consecutive save fails, so I gave up playing.

I'm kind of hoping they fixed it already -- but it would have to be without even realising it themselves, because Matt has confirmed it definitely is an issue... No, I probably just got lucky. I'll try some others whenever I next can, but I'll leave the proper testing to them, as it should be, with their newly formed team.

I can't see any reason why save won't be fixed across the routes, and reinstated in TSW3 (as it needs to be, what with routes getting longer too). It's certainly interesting that, months ago, all my saves failed without, er, fail, but I seem to have now managed to successfully save the game state while in random places, still driving, full power or braking. Admittedly it was a very brief test though. As I said, I probably just got lucky.

TrainSim-Matt and the new team need to methodically test busy, problematic routes, saving in random places, with applying power or braking while saving -- every conceivable scenario -- while also testing the theory that, at a station stop while loading passengers, pressing E and disembarking then saving on the platform always results in a successful save and resume...

 

There will be the longest route ever made for TSW coming with release of TSW3 (Kassel - Würzburg). I've seen a screenshot from the freight timetable and it seems like the runs are 2-3 hours. I think this route will have a working save function upon release, right?

 

Not as things stand.

 

Apparently not. Not on release anyway. So we have to keep faith that saves will be reinstated ASAP.