That isn't happening though, is it? The whole point of what I have been saying is that SCS's strategies have led to an ever-growing, loyal playerbase who feel that SCS is an honest and high-quality developer. If they adopted Dovetail's practices of releasing a newly slapped together DLC every couple of months, with numerous quality issues, and glaring bugs that sometimes even prevent you from completing services/scenarios, I guarantee you they'd lose customers. Despite their DLC taking awhile to make, they still release a steady stream of new content to keep people coming back. Not anywhere near as often as Dovetail, but as has been my whole point, this is a good thing because of how considerably higher quality it is. It also works out because when they do release new map content, it can take someone a considerable amount of time to see it all. Unlike a new TSW route that can be seen inside of an evening. Sure, you can still replay either one for as long as you want after seeing everything, but you've got a far larger variety of stuff to do that with in the former case.
Can you prove that with some numbers please. As i know (i know i have not a percent of an idea of the market you would say) you are wrong. Your argumentation is biased to some extend. You only look at it as a customer, what is not a bad thing, don't get me wrong. But your arguments are not correct from only that perspective. This also will be a endless discussion with no results. Loyal player of one game versus loyal player of a other game is nothing someone ever will win. I do only compare from a technical/economical sight and then add my perspective as a player (yes, i'm a player too, especially of SCS software games .. i have them all and i played them all for a good hundred hours each). A comparison is not really a usable thing with these games against a train simulator.
I already have. Multiple times now. It has been the entire basis of my point. SCS and Dovetail both make niche vehicle simulator games. Both had a similar player base a decade ago. It's not like Euro Truck Simulator 2 was SCS's first trucking game either, they had been making these for at least another decade prior to that. They released new games all the time, with questionable quality, and never grew any larger than Dovetail has to this day. The difference is that SCS changed tactics with ETS2, and the results speak for themselves. I'll copy/paste some Steam player stats I listed on the last page. You can look these up yourself on the Steam Charts website. Jan 2013 Peak Players Train Simulator: 2,373 Euro Truck Simulator 2: 2,837 July 2022 Peak Players Train Simulator: 1,615 Euro Truck Simulator 2: 38,102 All Time Peak Players Train Simulator: 3,806 - August, 2014 Euro Truck Simulator 2: 60,883 - March, 2020 Oh Deebz, you're being silly. Train Simulator was replaced by the Train Sim World series in 2017, you goof. Show the July 2022 numbers for that instead. Ok, sure. Train Sim World 1: 63 Train Sim World 2: 1,074 Oh... what about all time peak between Train Sim World 1 and 2? Here you go. Train Sim World 1: 1,931 - March, 2017 Train Sim World 2: 1,951 - December, 2021
Sorry, but these numbers say nothing, not to me. They are not reliable and not the real numbers of players. And numbers of players do not care at least. A higher number in player does not mean that it is the better game. Totally aside the economical aspects that you can't see for sure (but if you dig deeper into it you can get an idea).
The relevance seems very clear to me. Both types of games survive by people sticking around and buying DLC. More returning customers means more profit. Perhaps if there were not enough returning customers for DLC to keep a project afloat alone, one of these companies would need to resort to reselling the same game twice now, to the few players willing to spend the money? Rather than updating the original product for free, like other developers would do? At the end of the day, this is not a unique phenomenon. The wider gaming community has long-since wanted developers to treat them better as customers. So when a developer like SCS comes along and does just that? It's no wonder why people would flock to them, once they began doing so. Even people such as me, who would rather be playing a train simulator, have found a place in my heart for truck simulators now because of SCS as a company. Would you really object to Dovetail releasing higher quality products for a lower price, and taking the time to make sure those products stay up to date with the latest features, and bug fixes they deserve? It's not impossible. Dovetail may take a temporary profit hit by doing so, but speaking for myself, I would be happy to give them money for the first time in years if they began following those practices. We also have SCS as an example of a company making more money doing this, in the long run, and earning a much better reputation in the process. As an aside, wouldn't it be nice for new products to be announced without such a split reaction from customers? Of course though, if you actually are content with the quality of their releases, more power to you.
Still missing the proving numbers for that. All your other text is just your personal opinion (what is absolutely ok).
Considering how both Dovetail and SCS are privately held, what you are specifically asking for is not available. Sure, you could end it right there if you wanted to, but you would look silly to anyone who has been around to see how both companies have evolved. SCS's teams have grown dramatically over the years, the quality and output of their work has increased, and they have higher spots on Steam's top sellers list. Right at this very moment, you can see how much higher in that list Montana (a recent ATS DLC) is than Train Sim World 3. You think they would be able to go back and make all of the free additions and improvements to their games, while simultaniously growing their company and working on more projects at once, if they weren't doing better over time? Just to recap a few things they have done for free; multiple graphics overhauls across both games, an entire very solid multiplayer mode (with a larger scale MMO-type mode on the cards for the future), and more revamps to old content than I could count. They have currently halfway rebuilt the entire state of California to bring it up to their current stanards. Previously, they rescaled the entire map to make it almost twice as large as it was at release. That's just ATS as well. They've rebuilt more than half of western Europe in ETS2 in the meantime on top of that. All for free. How has Dovetail done in the meantime?
Putting all the doom and gloom to one side, I for one enjoyed the roadmap stream and put some concerns at ease. Was a bit sceptical of the new SEHS once announced but after seeing the detail, quality and putting aside some of the jittery video as after all, it is pre release and to be expected, it looks a much better game than TSW2 and I for one have no concerns for save feature as il find time to complete a route, even as long as newly released and I have a 2 year old. Most games these days have issues, Microsoft flight sim, FIFA, F1 2022, all need patches here and there and have much bigger budgets and been going on a lot longer than TSW, in any of its forms. I’ve never experienced red lights on BML, never considered saving a route as if I SPAD, it’s a fail and start again, get it right from start to finish, not start again half way through. Of course, looking forward to the route previews before deciding on day one purchase but willing to bet on most complaining about the game before we even see a preview, never mind released, will get this game at some point.
Team expanded from approx 50 to over 200, turnover topped £21m in 2021... they're doing OK Company information is somewhat freely available in the UK
At least, what you asking for you will not get. You can't ask DTG doing the same as SCS does. Completely different company structures and needs. I would say, stay at your beloved SCS software products then and you would have nothing to complain. It's as easy as that. Out.
I think it's also worth pointing out that not only is SCS 11 years older than Dovetail Games, Euro Truck Simulator 2 itself is two years older than DTG. This will affect the numbers. Plus, comparing audience sizes between truck sims and train sims (and flight sims, and fishing sims, and farm sims...) is not exactly comparing like to like. ETS2 Steam sales are estimated at 13.3 - 16.3M (PlayTracker) or 10 - 12M (SteamSpy). TSW2 Steam sales are estimated at 150 - 190K (PlayTracker) or 200 - 500K (SteamSpy). But ETS2 is also available on iOS and Linux, while TSW2 is also available on XOne, PS4, Xbox Series S/X, PS5, and Epic. Last we heard from DTG, 8th gen consoles are the largest slice of their pie. Plus, just as sales estimates vary wildly, player numbers seem to vary depending on the source. You posted those from Steam Charts. On the other hand, Steamdb.info shows an all-time peak of 3,086 players for TSW2, for one example. There's a reason people get degrees in how to figure out what all these numbers mean in practical terms for a company and its products, and get paid lots of money to do so. What we have here instead is single numbers being cherry-picked from variable third party reports, other relevant factors being ignored, and these numbers being used to "prove" assertions about game quality that said numbers have nothing directly to do with anyway.
And import DEM data for the terrain. You literally get a blank canvas and everything has to be hand placed and in the case of terrain texturing hand painted, the latter not easy with the finicky and clunky tools - something else DTG never got round to updating.
Already well ahead of you in that regard, as are quite a number of other people from what we can see so far (gotta love that Youtube like/dislike ratio, among several other sources showing similar reactions). I have no intention of giving Dovetail any money until they treat their customers with more respect. Should have learned that lesson 8 years ago when I had my first horrible experience with Train Simulator, but I hung around longer than I should have. Seems that is what Dovetail bets on. They like to hang promises over your head that things will improve, even though they never do. Hell, players are still waiting for the multiplayer mode and route editor they said would be coming to TSW back in 2017, even. Like I said, if you are happy with the quality of Dovetail's products, and don't mind how many issues (major and minor) they leave unfixed with those products, or how little gameplay they tend to include with their routes, more power to you. The numbers show you to be part of a very small community paying quite a large amount of money to keep them afloat. Even though I firmly believe Dovetail could change, they keep showing time and again that train simulation will remain in a very sad state. Enjoy your second paid update with minor improvements and a couple new routes, mandatory if you want continued updates/content.
Ok, need to back in one time more here for that. I never said that. I'm personally working hard on improving the quality output for TSW since a while (maybe you don't know it, that's ok too). I do the things i do for DTG because i don't like the overall quality of some specific things, alt least the train related stuff (that's why i mainly do trains (physics, functionality, sound) and not routes or ui or whatever. I also put back my own 3pp DLC to help DTG to improve these things (with the effect, that i earn less money as i could). Please just consider this when you "inspect" my opinions.
Genuinely curious if they pay you well for your efforts then. You are offering quite a unique and valuable service to them. In any case though, based on what you just said, I am guessing that someone with your attitude is responsible for better than average content that we've seen from the company itself. Still a shame that most of the content available to us is low quality and overpriced, though. Not to mention of course, as per the topic of this thread, that this is now the second full priced re-release of the same game, with only a few new features (still lacking the more widely desired ones that were promised 5 years ago), and a few mandatory new routes you need to buy if you want to continue getting updates or newer content at all. Yes, I do mean "promised" by the way. I remember Matt being on video saying that multiplayer would "absolutely come to TSW, absolutely", as would a route editor. I know they have had technical difficulties and all... plans dont always work out... yadda yadda. Still not a good look that we are now on the third re-release of the game without those features, though.
Still the lighting in Zusi3 is better then the lighting in TSW2...but thats not hard since TSW2 has the worst lighting in any PC game i have ever played.
This is without a doubt, so adjusting with lighting, does it need to be specially tried apparently? I just can't play tsw 2 after lighting from Amer Truck sim.
Maik Goltz I hope you know that you and your work is extremly popular and known among the players! We really appreaciate your hard work. And it's also good to know that your G6 seems to sell well. That little loco is really a piece of beauty. I hope your other DLCs are doing well
I highly doubt that, considering Zusi3 doesn't even have any real lighting to begin with. I mean I've never played it, but looking at pictures and videos, it doesn't even have any shadows or shading.
When i remember correctly (what could be wrong), the newest ZUSI versions using dx11 as an API but the simulator is already based on an older Delphi 2d graphic library. There is no real light at all. Its just colours and brightness. No shadows, no AO, no effects, nothing fancy as we have since TSC in a train simulator (i guess even MSTS did more 3d and shaders than ZUSI today). And i remember that Carsten said, that for him it is not important in any way to make it fancy 3d shiny at any point. This thing is mainly a industry approved simulator and not a game. The hobby version exists for some reasons, but not to be a game.
If Maik was in charge QC for TSW, just imagine how amazing it would be, yes there would be longer to wait between DLC releases because they'd be released when they meet a high standard... but that's better than releasing a half baked product then spending years saying it'll get fixed sometime soon--- ish, kinda, sorta... hey look over there, it's a new game called TSW3.
And of course one other thing to remember about Zusi, both "3" and the earlier version is that you cannot save a run in progress. One reason why, despite my interest in German railways, I cannot quite bring myself to part with £55 for the experience.
I played ZUSI2 a lot, and when i say a lot i mean that. I basically drove every train that was usable in there and some off them more than once. I liked it at the time i played it (around 2008-2010). But there already was RS (the original RailSimulator from Kuju) and even back there, RS was the better looking thing. Then Railworks 2 and so on and ZUSI got deleted fast here finally. Later i got ZUSI3 and had a look (there was TS2016 or so at that time) and never played it since then. It was the same thing. Wasn't interesting at all. Not really new. So, for hardcore simulators this is of course the better simulation, even today (at least when it comes to safety systems). For players that also like to have nice visible trains, TSC and of course TSW is the way better option to play. The simulation part is even better i would say since TSW2. I know, no one will believe me that. But when you work with SimuGraph you get the idea what it is capable of. I also digged into ZUSI with this stuff and there all is predefined. It's more Lego that a real Simulation-Construction-Site like Simugraph is. If you want to do something that ZUSI core does not have, you probably have to wait for years to get it working if at all. SimuGraph can easily be extended piece by piece, relatively fast. And the number crunching is not worse than ZUSI does. That's so far my experiences when i should compare. There is lots more they both have in common these days. And very important: they don't do compete each other at all.
The one thing i miss from Zusi, and even TSC is the ability to have a live EBuLa on a 2nd monitor, and the MFA screens on other monitors, so you can make yourself a virtual cab, for years i've simply had my laptop on an overbed table, and to each side of the laptop screen are 2 android tablets on table mounts. TS-MFD enabled these tablets to show the screens on the drivers desk of German trains, with a fully working EBuLa.. makes driving HUD-less a breeze and the immersion is amazing, especially when you add a controller that can be as simple at a USB throttle quadrant... as TSC has the API that allows joysticks to operate the controls with another free bit of software (Cobra Ones raildriver and joystick interface) Even some trains in TSC have working EBuLa screens in the train cabs (the newer Virtual Railroads Expert Line locos) Operating TSW with the keyboard really does feel like a step backwards at times.
Not sure why but even going from a controller to a keyboard feels terrible, I guess it must be a psychological thing that makes no sense, but at least with a controller I felt like I was moving somethings (like using the triggers and bumpers) with a keyboard it's even more plain and "souless" just press a button. Thankfully there are some third party programmes that allow you to use the throttle from a flight stick... but no matter how well made they are they are very limited in how they operate. I really wish DTG took the external controller issue just a little bit more seriously. An API would be amazing. I've heard someone is working on a program that apparently should be able to "translate" any input into the language RD uses to "fool" TSW into thinking it a RD... but I keep paying DTG but not those third parties making the game a lot more enjoyable.
yeah, that's Cobra one who's looking to do the USB joystick to TSW raildriver thing, his raildriver and joystick interface transformed TSC for players. Michela huggins released the raildriver work around that allowed an arduino to sort of mimic a raildriver, just for the levers tho, he said he was going to try and implement the buttons too, but i guess with TSW3 coming out, people aren't sure what will work now... tho from the sound of it, for input it'll be the same as ever.... because the consoles can't use it we can't have it on the pc After using levers that actually stay in position when you release them... i.e. like throttle quadrants and that, which are similar to how most train levers work, going back to stabbing keys multiple times to move the controls it really bad. I really thought TSW would have had direct input joystick stuff built into it from the beginning, look at some of Matts streams of him playing TSC, and he has a set up with multiple small monitors to show gauges which are reading data from the sim, and uses a raildriver to drive the trains, i know he's said he uses a foot pedal for the SIFA button and all that... so he is clearly into immersion, So i dont get why TSW is still mostly keyboard or game controller operated.
Talking about game controllers.... the PS5 has those haptic trigger buttons, why aren't they used to give lever notch feedback? i.e. as you advance through the axis of the lever, you get a notch / click that corresponds to notches in the in game levers, for brakes, you could feel when you are just before the full service brake application by the trigger needing to be pressed past a detent (like it is done when pulling the trigger of a gun with the controller) same with going into emergency position, and then for trains like the BR112 / 143, you'd get to feel the 16 / 12 notches as the speed lever is moved to set a speed to run at.
Controller is very very basic, the triggers aren't even actually analogue, when you press it to a certain point it just acts as you pressing a button. I think there could be a lot of different ideas to better utilise a controller, for example I'd start first making the triggers actual analogue inputs, followed by having the ability to bind different controls to different trains. But ALAS controls are as basic as they get just so you can drive the train, you can't even set a button to toggle DRA... For example let's say the BR146.2 I'd like to have an analogue input for the throttle (which is continuously variable) but a digital input for the notched brakes is fine (one tap of a button changes the brake notch), I'd assign both triggers as throttle + and throttle - and the bumpers as brake + and brake - Another example, the TGV and the Class 66 which have a 3 positions, self centering lever for the brakes, I'd bind that to the up/down left stick, which would act the same way the real lever would, and maybe zoom up and down to the bumpers (which would end unused)
yup, the game controller is used basically as a very small keyboard, when i played TSW2 on the PS5, i quickly gave up on the game controller and used a keyboard, So much potential is wasted Force feedback steering wheels.... the pc, ps5 and xbocks can all use them, imagine driving the train on the Arosa line , or the BR155 by turning the wheel as the power controller wheel in the train, with the force feedback giving you all the notches, and holding the wheel in the last notch/position you left it in.
Deebz__ ....Comparing the merits of 2 completely different companies making 2 completely different franchises is probably a little unfair to DTG. A better measuring stick may be Simrail SA once they release their simulator onto the market
i believe they are taking their time to get it right before releasing SimRail, they have one chance really, either beat all other train simulators or be compared to them negatively. I know i'd rather wait for a polished release than be served up half baked stuff with promises of fixes that don't materialise.
Perhaps they want to get it right the first time. Better to have a product delayed if it means better quality rather than rushed when it's clearly incomplete and buggy like some of Dovetail's products
These things were coming relatively late to the TSC party. I'm pretty sure this will happen with TSW too (no, i have no clue if or when, just a normal guess). I know, i have invented that 2015 for these locos (BR101 was the first one) and it was kinda usable but has its flaws. And it is nothing we want to have in TSW. Correct working EBuLa or no EBuLa i got told. Making it work is not a quite easy thing as some people might think. As i remember it was said officially on a stream, that this will be implemented at some time when it is possible to do it.
Same. Cant even look at TSW2 after playing MSFS for some time...or looking outside of the window and realizing the real world is not tar black and nuclear bright at the same time. Well, no lighting still beats TSW2 lighting by a mile. With lighting in Zusi3 i mean the lighting atmosphere that Zusi3 creates in different daytimes and weather conditions. And this is far superior to TSW2 with its tar black shadows, cartoon look and nuclear sun.
For the BR 612's GST, the way it's implemented really already "looks" like a base to built the Ebula on it, maybe? I mean, it's not accurate, but it works. It shows the next speed based on your current location. I guess the groundwork of the GST could have been the first step (of a longer journey) to make Ebula work.
What's done on the 612 has nothing to do with how EBuLa works. It was just because we needed a way to show the GNT speeds to the player in some sort. If you know GNT you don't need that. But lots of players do not know GNT in the first place coming to that route. After a while they get the figure behind it and also do not need that display anymore. EBuLa is something completely different and a way more complex data monster than what is there now.
If anyone still drives German trains in Train Simulator Classic, have a play with TS-MFD : https://www.ts-mfd.de/ (if using chrome, right click and 'translate to english... if you can't read German) It takes a little learning how it works, but once you have that, you can get working EBuLa and MFA screens on an android tablet(s), or 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc monitors. There's a big long thread on railsim.de about how to use it: https://rail-sim.de/forum/thread/24238-ts-mfd-modulares-führerraumdisplay-mfd-inkl-ebula-für-train-sim/?pageNo=1 Again in German, but chrome will translate it with one click, or run the link through google website translate or something. The guy who wrote TS-MFD is currently working on a new improved version, which will have ETCS and other systems on the displays.... i'm really being tempted back to TSC now, and at least there my 'euro raildriver' is fully working thanks again to that API and CobraOnes joystick interface. it's able to work on TSC because there is an API for TSC that allows you to get the trains location data, time, speed and lots of other info from it to use with other programs. I wish we could get something like this in TSW. we do have printable BurchFahrPlans for some routes, but a working EBuLa as an add on would bring the immersion on big time.
