Tsw 3 - An Insult To The Tsw Community

I think you're being very optimistic there. I'm trying to remember if anything came out after Rush Hour before the end of last year.

 

Plenty on TSC!

 

My own personal reason for a lack of interest in TSW3 is that I don't think I trust them to have fixed problems from the first 2 games.

I enjoyed TSW, and while I wasn't exactly enamoured with having to buy TSW2, I did. And I was disappointed. All the issues with erroneous red signals were still there, including new ones. It's only fairly recently that a major issue with the "Down The Line" scenario was fixed in TSW2, where 2 of 3 available routes were undrivable right from the very start due to red signals at the origin station never changing to let you depart.

As I mentioned in a post on another thread a few days ago, I recently wasted 30+ minutes on a GWR InterCity timetable route, because as I arrived just outside Paddington, an AI train was stuck across the points ahead of me. Reloaded, retried... same thing - no save/resume (which I know can cause issues), just straight through. It wasn't even stuck at a signal - it was ahead of me, just past a signal heading into the station, and just wasn't moving. Two other AI trains came and went without issue on lines either side of me, but all I could do was pass the signal, fail, and go back to the main menu.

You can only encounter this problem so many times on different routes/scenarios before it begins to put you off playing completely. Why spend 30 minutes, an hour, or more playing something where you don't know if you'll make any progress, when you could spend it playing something more reliable?

We already had the "we need to make a new game because..." excuses when TSW2 was announced. In truth, it was barely distinguishable from the original, and duplicated many of the problems from the first game. TSW3 gives me a huge dose of deja vu.

Personal opinion: There should not be (or should not need to be) a new game every couple of years. They release more than enough paid DLC at high enough prices to support ongoing development, and they could easily update the entire game to a new version through the online stores. This is an ideal candidate for Games as a Service, and the core game should be updated on an ongoing basis at no additional cost. Locking people out of future DLC unless they buy the new version, with no guarantee that the new version won't once again have all the same issues preventing route completions in those new DLCs, is a bit of a piss-take.

If they were to make timely fixes to the game(s) people have already paid for before asking them to stump up for a new version, it might go down a little better.

DTG could do worse than take a look at SCS Software and how they're constantly updating ETS2 and ATS - adding new features and overhauling the game engines free of charge, being supported by various paid and free DLCs ranging from huge new maps to free new trucks and trailers, paint schemes etc. - even sometimes updating DLCs originally released years ago - and their community absolutely love them for it.

I am always happy to support a developer who does things in a reasonable way; I have every DLC for ETS2 and ATS (excluding paint jobs) and am there day one for every new DLC, happy to give them my cash. So it's not that I want "free stuff" - this is not a sense of entitlement, it's an aversion to being treated like a mug.

 

Sherman Hill and West Cornwall both released in Nov after RH

 

In other words, you think DTG should have released TSW3 as a complete break with the past- including being incompatible with everyone's existing routes and locos.

Personally, I don't think that would be a bright business strategy.

 

Could be. But there's also been less DLC released YTD than in 2021.

 

This sums up perfectly why I'm not playing TSW2 at the moment, because I can't trust that I won't completely waste what little time I can spend with it, either on a short run that might be broken, or saving on a longer run unsure of whether I can resume and complete it successfully.

With the talk of focusing on bug fixes, and finally repeated mention of the save game issues, I was very hopeful that, in a few months or so, there would be light at the end of the TSW2 tunnel. I thought with this talk of slowing down to focus on bug fixes and the release of Spirit of Steam, it showed a long-term commitment to TSW2, with more content to come alongside overdue fixes...

But out of nowhere, we get TSW3 with save game removed, which could look like ditching everything -- like backtracking on the promises -- even like fibbing...

Well, I'll watch the update stream tomorrow and see what TrainSim-Matt has to say. But we certainly need to start seeing reasons to believe it isn't all talk, that TSW3 isn't just a broken cash cow.

 

Pshaw! Everyone knows the Illuminati are behind it.

 

Well, that's dependent on it actually being the route of our dreams...

 

I agree with an earlier post that $54 for 4 routes and what looks like a winner of new features AND all my TSW2 routes move over! I for one am tickled pink. Thank you DTG! Great bargain. Making great improvements and good communication updates along the way. You can always stick with TSW2.

 

Releasing working DLC.. such a terrible crime.
A better analogy would be for you to reference that time I released a loco that totally failed to work properly, then I spent 2 years promising to fix it whilst making and releasing other locos, and then finally I released a fix for it but you had to buy a reskin to get the original loco fixed.
But you can't, because IT NEVER HAPPENED from me.
I would never do that because it's a scummy, disrespectful way to treat customers. What I would do is release the GWR 42/52/7200 via Steam after it had been released via SSS but make sure that all 1100+ existing customers got a free steam key, because THAT is how you treat customers you appreciate. That is how I would like to be treated by companies that actually give a damn and not be treated like a dumb commodity to be fleeced at every opportunity by being made to pay to fix their broken game.

 

Who remembers the Spirit of Steam preview streams recently where it was proudly pronounced that the new particle effects interact with the environment so they don’t go through scenery and then when the route was released the steam went through all the scenery just like it always has.

That’s how I see DTG at the moment. They tell us their intent rather than what actually happens. They always have to some degree. There is a lot of that happening with the TSW3 information. Like the often repeated insistence that the new SEHS is available as a free upgrade to every player who owns the original when purchasing “any TSW3 bundle” when it is actually clearly included in the price of three of those bundles. It’s like a mind trick.

They were showing the new effect of snow kicking up in the roadmap stream and saying how wonderful it was while we could all clearly see it flickering on and off like a visual equivalent of how sound cuts in and out for many things in TSW. It looked awful and broken. It’s getting extremely embarrassing to witness this. I feel sorry for the people on the streams having to make fools of themselves telling us things are great when they clearly aren’t. There’s not even any acknowledgement that it currently looks broken but should be okay for the release like they might have said in the past. They just act like it is all okay now and blatantly ignore what we can see right there on the screen.

I had been thinking that the premise of this thread of it being an insult to the community was a bit over the top but the blind insistence that everything is wonderful while a fire burns in the background is annoying me now. I am still a bit annoyed that the New Journeys pack reintroduced poor performance to SKA and that the locos won’t stay on the track in HSC and that those two most recent purchases are still very raw for me and thought that maybe I’m overreacting a little due to that and it will all turn out fine, but then I saw the stuttering when they showed off the GEVO in the stream and I thought again. I’m not overreacting at all, I’m just seeing what I see and writing it down. I’ll make sure to write some good stuff when I see it all working.

I haven’t finished watching the stream so I’m assuming they get to the bit about what outstanding issues are going to be fixed later on. I don’t yet know if that last sentence is me being sarcastic. I’ll let you know tomorrow.

 

Nope, that’s not what I was saying. I am simply making the point that TSW3 is not a new game.

 

Regarding UK routes, I'd have been bang up for the MML. Seeing as SEHS now has 90 miles of track (albeit a lot was pre-existing) it would have been quite a crowd-pleaser to have seen St Pancras to a Midlands location (such as Leicester - 98 miles, or Corby - 79 miles). Perhaps a Valenta or VP185 in EMT livery. Maybe even Intercity, plus the Class 31s on parcels. Modelling a BR-era St Pancras would have taken a bit of shine off it though

 

Try the MML packs from JustTrains on TSC. There's nothing such on TSW (unfortunately) and DTG do seem focussed on 3rd rail for some odd reason

Personally I would prefer they do a "base route" which has the sprinter family liberally sprinkled across it (150/153/156/158) and then those units can be used to populate just about everywhere outside of the SouthEast with only a repaint and reupholster of the seats.

 

Releasing an update for DLC then charging for it is the crime you were intimating at.

Of course broken DLC (or core game features) should be repaired and I've called DTG out on that many times. But you yourself put out "updates" and charge for them

 

It would be nice if dovetail rewarded customer loyalty by at least a 10%, discount but that is a company decision. My decision is not to purchase it.

 

That DTG doenst give a whimp about their customers is something they definitely shown us in the Last year since Rush Hour.

If you are cool with paying money for broken content, that's your thing. But people absolutely have the right to criticism, especially if they were promised fixes that now (at least appear) to have to be paid for. And that's absolutely no ok. I certainly can't play most of the routes without having a game crash. That's not what I would call a finished product.

DTG should clarify on what its going on with the bug fixes, especially the ones who made this game unplayable for a year now.

 

I think they should publically communicate a date for all updates to be released by and what they’ll be and then put a line in the sand and move on

 

i very like tsw3

 

Agreed, I’ve got 1500 hrs in tsw2 so I’m slowly burning out on the older routes

 

As promised I have watched the rest of the stream and I was more encouraged by what was said about fixes that the former Pres Crew can do. It’ll still be a lottery as to what gets fixed so I have no idea whether any of the big fixes I want will ever happen. Obviously it was still more talk and no evidence but I get that some things are moving in the right direction, such as Training Centre. I really need to see all the promised things working and then get my own hands on it for a full appraisal and some enjoyment.

I understand the idea behind taking the save out of TSW3 and fixing it route by route to bring it back but what the real issue here is that it wasn’t done years ago. DTG have had their heads in the sand with it and the importance it has with the players. How many routes do they now need to go through testing and ensuring every parameter stays the same after a save? It’s going to take someone a very long time to do it now. The fix for the DLC limit on PS5 is looking encouraging and it hasn’t even taken them a full year to fix it. So that is an improvement (and yes the end of this post is a little sarcastic).

 

Good idea.

'You are owed nothing' is the equivalent of people defending Disney. Much less of a real-world impact, but putting companies on a pedestal never ever works long-term. It is a bad mindset to have universally. Companies are not customer's friends - greed and negligence will take over every company at some point. Disney suffered this fate. On a smaller scale, Polyphony Digital suffered this fate too. Comparing the situation with Assassin's Creed games is mind boggling. Out of every game you could have picked to prove your point, you chose one that bares the least similarity to Train Sim World in gameplay and production. Every Assassin's Creed game is a different game, and therefore expecting to get subsequent games is a bit odd. It would be nice, but nice =/= realistic =/= sensible.

Train Simulator has had two instances of a paid upgrade. The first was the transition from Rail Simulator to RailWorks. The transition between Kuju, RSDL and DTG was certainly an interesting time. RailWorks was more of a Rail Simulator Ultimate Edition but as I wasn't there I couldn't say how happy the community was about it. One I am aware of was TS2016, which was probably DTG's biggest blunder that side of Rush Hour. I remember a lot of anger surrounding it as DTG were effectively locking people out of things as simple as a change of the menu background unless you coughed up the money to buy TS2016 outright, until they backed down later on. TS2016 was saved by good content included - Riviera Line In The Fifties was excellent as was the BR155 - but the patronising way DTG treated at us during this time I still something I do not have happy memories of. Other than these two instances, Train Simulator has been that 'live service' game that you say cannot happen for TSW... since 2007. DLC I buy for Rail Simulator (specifically for that game; while the JT Voyager is technically a RS train it doesn't count anymore) still works in Train Simulator, and I can still buy Steam codes for DLC withdrawn long ago and they'll work.

Sure, most TSW1 DLC will work in TSW3, but we have no idea if they will in TSW4, and with DTG holding all the cards when it comes to compatibility who can say for certain they'll throw TSW1-3 DLC in the can in two years' time? They almost did it with TSW2. However, let's compare my journey with Train Simulator and somebody who bought TSW when it first released on the Xbox One.

TS:

1. Buy TS

TSW:

1. Buy TSW Founder's Edition
2. Buy the forced upgrade to TSW1 to play with any DLC or new features
3. Buy TSW2
4. Buy TSW3

So while I have bought other versions of TS, I did not buy them out of necessity. The TS I bought in 2013 is still the one being updated right now, and the one DTG says is still profitable despite them only releasing a handful of DLC packs per year - and if it's still profitable even if they haven't had to sell a new version every two years, why are we being blackmailed into buying TSW3 for more than any previous version of TSW bar the initial release half a decade ago in order to have bugs fixed and long-promised features added? This is the bit I don't get. In 2020 I somewhat supported the paid update for TSW2, and while I still believe having separate games meant they could avoid a headache with the withdrawn US DLC, I haven't believed it was a good idea overall for a long time now. Remember that somebody who bought CSX Heavy Haul in 2017 didn't need to buy a new version until this point.

DTG's business model since the RSDL days has remained unchanged for TS. Build the base game which gets updated over time, with a large catalogue of DLC available for long-term owners to get a large collection of DLC. It does mean TS has one of the largest DLC libraries on Steam but what would you expect from a game that has got constant updates and additions since 2007? It's a business model I have bought into - I own roughly a third of the DLC available on Steam acquired over time and bulk-bought during sales and in bundles. I don't see why DTG are no longer able to do this, and I really don't know why people agree with them. Again, companies are not your friend. Please don't try to say that TSW DLCs take more effort than in TS. During 2014/2015/2016, when DTG were in a much worse financial situation than now as described on relatively recent streams, they were releasing DLC every two or three weeks. Most of it was crap, but so is most of the stuff they have released for TSW post-Munich to Augsburg.

It also doesn't help that when comparing TS routes and TSW equivalents the ones built in the 2007 game look better much of the time. SEHS used TS assets in its TSW version and the scenery overall was worse than TS. The LIRR was significantly better in TS. It's the same story with NEC New York and New York - New Haven. The quality only truly leans in TSW's favour when the TS version is very old, as was the case with the Rail Simulator routes (GWML vs GWE; Hagen to Siegen vs Ruhr Sieg Nord; Cajon Pass; Isle Of Wight). If more effort has to be put into TSW routes why does it come across that there is not enough effort being put into them? DTG occasionally do well, such as with Riesa to Dresden which has stunning night lighting and one of the best timetables in the game (unless you're on PS4 or Xbox One, where the route doesn't really work at all), but a one off doesn't show a positive trend.

The thing is that as of now the new features and routes in TSW3 look good. There are some complaints about the priority of new features or whether the routes were the right choice, but generally all of the complaints aimed at TSW3 are due to the pricing. All of them. To get a single route you need to pay more than TSW2 or TSW2020 or TSW1, and to get the three-route standard that DTG has had since TS2014 you need to pay £40. Using your same price per route analysis...

• TSW1 on PC (main game launch): £10 per route
• TSW1 on PC: £6 per route
• TSW1: £8
• TSW2020 on PC: £5
• TSW2020 on Xbox One: £6
• TSW2020 on PS4: £3
• TSW2 at launch: £8
• TSW2 now: £5
• TSW3 Starter Pack: £29 per route
• TSW3: £13

And for Train Simulator:

• RailWorks 2: £3 per route*
• TS2016: £5
• TS2017: £5
• TS Classic: £6

*Pricing data on SteamDB only goes as far back as 2012. This calculation is based on the earliest available price, which is £35. If anybody has more information on the actual retail price of RW2 please tell me, but for now I am going to assume RW2 was £35 - not that it affects the price per route. Additionally, TS seems to jump between prices every few years, sometimes very high and sometimes very low - I am not sure why this is. At one point TS2016 was £14.99 and therefore I have decided to use the lowest undiscounted price for the TS calculations. TSW2 had a price decrease recently and that is counted as a separate entry. I could have done this for TS but due to the amount of research I'd need to do to make a simple point I really can't be bothered. Also please note that calculations are always rounded down. One could say this gives older versions of TSW the advantage but it also applies to TSW3 so I'm afraid that the difference in value for money is not fabricated.

As a clear result, we are paying more per route than ever before, even the very early days of the main release of TSW1 on PC. The Starter Packs costing more than any previous version, some of which had up to seven route includes, is an insult. I am shocked your post has got over sixty likes (and it's a little bit concerning that more people believe DTG's behaviour is correct rather than challenging it) but in the end, if DTG had given TSW3 away as a free upgrade for TSW2 owners and sold it for the usual price of £24.99 for the normal version, there would be no complaints whatsoever. DTG chose to milk us for more money when they could easily have been doing what they have been doing for much more than a decade. And now we're getting closer to ten years since TSW was first announced (in 2014 for anyone asking) it's a bit annoying that TS is still better value for money and a better bet for not being ripped off than the game that was designed to replace it.

No matter what happens though, DTG will continue to do this and will make a lot of money off of it. People will still justify it and people will still buy TSW3 and its DLC. Even if I wasn't annoyed I wouldn't really be able to buy TSW3 anyway as I am on PS4 but cannot get a PS5 and I am not going to rebuy the significant amount of DLC I own on PC. You may remember my massive complaint thread earlier this year - TSW3 fixes some of the issues highlighted in there but DTG has written chapter two for me, and since posting the thread the only time I have played TSW2 was to film a bug to send to DTG for them to not fix in TSW2. Sums it up really.

 

In fairness, there are some who don't have a problem with the price. Then there are some that will bow down to DTG no questions asked so it's not surprising to see comments along those lines. Who knew all the Assassin Creed games were the same...

Part of me feels like DTG are really trying to cater this game for new players. That's what it feels like anyways. That would make sense from a marketing standpoint to be honest.

TSW 3 in my view really needs to be a major step forward and DTG can't repeat the same mistakes they have made over and over again. TSW 2 had to be paid for to move the series forward. Two years later, it's the same old story effectively. So TSW 3 has to be a major step forward and not be a case of release good routes in the beginning only to go back to the inconsistent quality of the TSW 2 era (which wouldn't surprise me if that happened again) otherwise it will just raise the same old questions from the past. I mean the fact that some TSC routes looked better than their TSW counterparts says it all really

As a side note, the snow effects look like they still need work. Whilst it's still a WIP,(which means nothing if you look back at DTG's history of TSW) they look absolutely horrible from the clip shown on the roadmap stream.

We will just have to see what the "Future of Train Simulation" lies in store for players long term...again

 

DTG has every right to appeal to new players, but it is clearly at the expense to people who have been playing TSW since day one - I fit into that group. The three routes in this new game will barely run on PS4 and Xbox One, but may or may not be good routes - we'll have to wait and see. I do find it a bit ridiculous that the most hyped route for TSW, London to Faversham, which was also DTG's worst route to date, is finally being patched but only if you pay at minimum £29.99. I had suggested on another thread DTG release an 'engine only' version of the game for £15 that only has the training centre and that can have any DLC added to it, functioning as a 'build your own bundle' of sorts, and I believe I may have suggested this feature in the past albeit in a different context. I'd probably give it a go for £15 since the training centre is the bit I'm most interested in since I love open world maps, but it doesn't solve the issue of the £40 cost for the main game.

TS has this 'engine only' functionality available indirectly if you buy certain single routes that contain the TS base software (South London Network and the Christmas routes come to mind) and this is technically what the starter packs are, but for £10 too much. Eventually DTG may back down and at the very least make the standard edition £24.99 as was expected, but really a 40-like post on the forum shouldn't be needed for DTG to not act like Sony in 2006. They shouldn't have done it in the first place, and they should have just stuck to TS' business model unless they truly had something better. TSW2 could be excused for being a separate game as DTG would likely have needed to anyway - free upgrade or not - due to the NEC New York issues (and they can't remove DLC from people's accounts, although they did do it with the Hitachi SEC) but we should have seen the warning signs in 2020 before they tried the same trick again in 2022.

 

The most Problem here is, that most of the "Preorderers" see
the New Screenshots,
the New Weather,
the New Routes,
the new Locos and feel happy about it and say "It will such a great new Experience!!"

...till the Moment, when they open a former TSW2 DLC Content in TSW3 and see nothing has Changed and it looks like you have NOT BUYing a new Game

 

It’s the Games Workshop approach. Everything is geared to maximize appeal to new players, and maximize profit from new players.

 

The only travesty i see is that the recent TSW2 routes (Rush Hour and those that came after) dont get their lighting fixed.

I will not buy TSW3 on launch but wait at least a month. I will look here at the forums to see if:

- Is the new lighting actually finally fixing the terrible TSW lighting?
- Is the performance finally halfway optimized or still trash?
- Are there any big new bugs and issues?

Im ready to skip tsw3

 

Doomotron & tallboy7648

Some great posts there guys! I have to agree as well, I’m surprised no one has really mentioned those ‘snow effects’ from the stream. They look absolutely woeful, and I’m not sure if woeful is strong enough a word.

It looks to me like they want another feature to add to the list, so have turned this effect on without any regard for how it works in the game. If you’ve not seen it take a look. It’s like someone clicks an on switch as the train approaches, you then get this pulsating cloud effect totally disconnected from the train whilst it passes and then just like that, someone hits the off switch.

They must know it looks rubbish. If I were in charge of TSW3 that wouldn’t make the cut until it looks a whole heap better than it does now.

 

Perhaps DTG thinks that some existing tsw players not buying this game won't matter since they can get new profit from potential new players thus making money in the end. Essentially a way to maximize profit from new players. There is also Xbox Game Pass which can lure potential new players into buying future DLCs as well.

On your second point on pricing, I agree that it should've been cheaper but perhaps to add these features that should've been in the game years ago, it was expensive thus this is why they put this price tag . Granted they said that when TSW 2 came out. Would be interesting to see the actual price tag of development. Some don't mind, whilst others have a problem but opinions in life will always vary.

I feel like though DTG can't be doing this business model of promising that their tsw game is the future of train simulation and that this game will be bigger and better only to scrap it and charge for an upgraded version because of their design flaws. Perhaps they could've stick to their pricing model used in TSC but hey, could've, would've, should have

Now there may be some that would keep defending this practice pointing to other studios. There was one that said in another thread that Rockstar did it with GTA 4 and GTA 5 which made me laugh because those games are two completely different games with different stories and mechanics. Then there was the Assassin Creed comparison which is something that was baffling. The Assassin Creed Games are not the same with every new release. There is a different story and mechanics in every Assassin Creed game.

Now there was the sports game argument. The thing with sports games is that they do sell. The problem though is alot of sports games tend to be rehashes of their predecessors only with some minor changes to correspond with the current season. F1 22 for example has the 2022 F1 cars and physics but the driver career has effectively been the same since F1 2019 and MyTeam which was introduced in F1 2020, hasn't changed much so the experience for existing players is deja vu basically. Then there are the criticisms of sports games

Just because sports games sell well doesn't mean they are great games. FIFA games have come under heavy criticism recently along with the Madden games. The most recent WRC game haven't received overwhelming positivity. WRC 10 is very similar to it's predecessor but got mixed reviews because of the bugs that occurred during launch amongst many other issues. F1 22 was heavily criticized because of the bugs and the F1 life feature not being well received. It was essentially the ability to decorate a house you can't even walk around which is practically pointless in a F1 game.

The reason why these games sell though is there could be fans of these real life sports that just want to get the newest game of that sport's current season, new players getting into the series, but the main one is simply lack of competition. These sports companies hand out exclusive licenses to a specific developer to make a game with their license. This leads to developers doing what they wish. Even just making rehashes of their previous title. They can do this because of the lack of competition and because there are no alternatives, players will buy what's available even if it is the same game they had before but with some new minor features. If there was competition, then these sports games would potentially get better because it would force developers to innovate and add major things rather than only doing minor changes

People can have their opinions but TSW is different to a GTA or a sports game. TSW in my view can't be this franchise where there is a "new" game every two years. To me it defeats the purpose of what DTG have said they wanted to achieve with this franchise. We can't keep having to pay for patches or improvements that should have been there but weren't due to DTG's design flaws. We can't keep having to pay in order to "move the franchise forward" only for the experience to be the same as before. We can't keep having to pay for promises only for them to be broken. TSW 3 has to be the definitive future of TSW and we can't keep going back to zero because of DTG's mistakes or poor decisions. TSW 3 has to have consistent quality across the board and not start off good in the beginning but then become inconsistent quality wise. It has to be bigger and better and actually deliver on the vision that this franchise was made on and not have this franchise locked behind a continuous 2 year paywall with the same excuses we have heard over and over

I know players can do whatever they want with the product and nobody is forced to buy anything and DTG can do whatever they want with their product but this is just my take

 

As regards price, given the “Starter” versions are not going live on Steam until release date, they still have time to pitch the price down to £19.99 for the UK. At that cost, I would buy in, regardless of the other caveats. Probably pick up the German route then Cajon when the other starter pack gets 40% off at Christmas. I don’t wish DTG any ill will but I really do hope their pre order level is not as high as they expected, forcing an urgent review of both the bundle and pricing policy ( I would pay £30 for an “advanced starter” of Wurzburg and Cajon) and the state in which it looks like TSW3 will be released.

 

I agree. I am not interested in Cajon pass, I played it once in RS and long freight routes aren't my thing. The German high speed route I might be interested in but am not that obsessed with high speed routes.

I would like the Kent High Speed and if it came out as a regular DLC I would have purchased it but I don't really want to spend £30 especially as I am not using TSW much at the moment.

I will wait to see what the reaction is when it gets released or see what other UK DLC is coming out in the future.

 

And even then TS2016 wasn't a mandatory upgrade - future DLC would still work even if you didn't buy TS2016.

 

I have been up and down Cajon several times in Run 8 but the point there is that you are going on down into Los Angeles, or the other direction turning towards Mojave and Tehachapi for Bakersfield or that long old run across the desert from Barstow to Needles and Seligman. Or you can potter up and down the route serving industries with your local from either Barstow or West Colton, though apparently the latter is not even included.

 

can't believe they've gone to all the effort to update the core of TSW2 for it now to be called TSW3 and not bothered to put station names on the 2D map. Yes we know you can pause the game to see station names on the bodged 2D map but come on TSW3 is suppose to be a fresh start.

 

About money...

Check the history of fuel prices and the level of inflation. Maybe sugar and bread prices? Alcohol? Some sterile non-constructive considerations. BR o7

 

Its not a fresh start.
Its like having a rumbling patchwork of a car that breaks down most of the time and now you give it a wash and install new headlights.
Most likely your car will still be a mess in the end but at least you can see better and the dirt on the outside is gone for a few months until it starts to accumulate again.

 

Got to keep those profits coming in!

From their financial report submitted December 2021 the company grew revenue by £3.3 million (18% increase) in 2021 over 2020 and increased profits by £1.7 million (89% increase) over the same period which covered the majority of the COVID lockdowns.

They declared a 61.7% gross profit margin which is a pretty decent mark up. So they're obviously not struggling to pay all the developers that a lot of people shout about when someone dares to suggest prices are too high!

https://find-and-update.company-inf...I4MWFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0

 

The biggest insult is that there is no route editor. It's 2022. TS Classic has one since it came out. If this is the future, then we're doomed.

 

Often trotted out, barely substantiated.
Never come across an unflawed route in TSC or that doesn't require £100 in requirements (and still rubbish)

 

I've never come across an unflawed route in TSW, either.

 

Me neither, but the theory is that if we had an editor then routes would be improved, or somehow flawless routes made by others.
I have yet to see evidence of this in TSC

 

I don't think anyone expects flawless routes "to err is human to really foul things up you need a computer"!

However, with an editor there could be so much more variety. If there wasn't an editor in TSC the variety of content would be so much less.

 

Absolutely

Well, yes, because there are people all round the world making content from all round the world whereas DTG only really do three markets.
But then counter to that is in TSW the publisher HAS to be DTG as they have the console stores, so unless people want to abandon 66% of the players to the winds
And if not then there's the dumpster fire of "where do I go for which requirement (that I might not be able to buy again)?"

 

As stujoy said, the way they sugarcoat everything on stream is quite an embarrassment, as well it shows ignorance to the current issues TSW has.

A few of the gripes I have are of the visuals and VFX themselves:

The snow trail clip says it all… There were clearly issues with it, as it showed the animation looping quite aggressively. Not only that but it wasn’t even lopped correctly. It just cut before restarting the animation again from the beginning. I’d rather it removed if this is the end result of it. It looks like a big immersion breaker.

Secondly, the rain. They previewed the reflections they make on ground but from what I saw, we still have that horrible looking rain texture which has existed since beta days of TSW. What’s the point of adding these reflections if the actual rain still looks like poop? Speaking of which, I doubt they have actual done anything regarding the draw distance of the rain. Currently it only draws out around 5 or so meters from the player, of which you can clearly see where it ends.

Finally, the shadows. We’ve been told that we’re getting new variations in lighting thanks to the volumetric clouds, but the actual shadow draw distance remains embarrassingly poor. How will this work as surely we are still going to get many objects not casting a shadow, thus making the landscape look as flat and dull as it always has done.

Long story short, I think a lot of these ‘nice to have’ features are nice, but they will only work well if the underlying issues have actually been addressed. Given the issues explained above, it seems like DTG haven’t done as such… The term ‘half-ar*ed job’ comes into mind here.

 

That'll do.

 

I think that just because sports games do the yearly updates doesn't mean they should. The Formula One games just aren't as good as they used to be. F1 2020 is considered to be the last good one, with classic cars a tracks being removed afterwards. Yearly updates can be good, such as with the PlayStation-exclusive F1 games made by Studio Liverpool, but unless significant effort is put into each new version it's just a way to profit off of people. PES dropped the yearly releases which was a good step but unfortunately the step was eFootball. Guess we'll have to wait another few years for a good football game...

Really we should have seen the signs coming. It seems the fishing games are usually a preview of TSW features for both good and bad. Multiplayer is in the fishing games and hopefully will come to TSW, and the Unreal Engine was first used by DTG in Euro Fishing as a test bed for TSW. But then we had the paid upgrades, and now we're on our fourth fishing game when Fishing Sim World seemed like the platform moving forward, and now the fishing games seem dead in the water because of DTG ditching Fishing Sim World.

Exactly. Even if TS2016 is included TSW has had more paid upgrades than TS, and if we only count RailWorks in the paid upgrades DTG's attitudes towards TSW seem even more insulting.

Granted, the days of TSW2020 were very promising, with much of the best TSW DLC being made during that time. Unfortunately DTG nosedived for some reason and may never recover. I'm still annoyed they couldn't bring the SW1000R forward; that train was among the best in TSW and now is a relic of the past.

What I find hilarious is that, while DTG included your skybox update in TSW2 (which in my opinion still looks better than the volumetric clouds they have) they didn't include your rain patch, or loads of other community patches which could have made the game so much better, such as sound updates, the overhaul of WCL, the fence fix for SEHS, and its revamp pack too. DTG are sitting on a goldmine of community help but are being very selective about what they use it for when they could improve the game so much just by going on the Train Sim Community website...

 

you go dtg work is very good

 

While I appreciate that incredibly lengthy write-up, I couldn't help but feel like you've completely missed some of the points of the counter-arguments.

Surprise surprise, that's literally how progress works. Of course the marketing department is going to tout whatever TSW version as a next generation train simulation, but eventually next generation won't be next generation anymore. Remember, this franchise is like 5+ years old. Iterations are NEEDED to keep the game where us customers expect it to be.
The whole way with how TSC works wouldn't work for TSW, because that game is tailor-made for a different sort of audience, where its PC-only and very open to modding. There's a whole different set of things that can and can't be done.

I know this is an indirect reply to me because I've pointed this out many times, but again, I can't help but feel you missed the point. I was never trying to talk about how these other games are good or whatever. That's a whole other argument that's highly subjective.
The point I was trying to make here is that this business strategy IS NOT unique to DTG, and it happens with a lot of other games like COD or 2K or FIFA or F1 or whatever. It doesn't matter what goes on in their world, what matters here is that the trend is all the same, and proves that its a business model that works. People don't mind buying a game year after year, as long as they believe they're buying a new and improved version.
That's what's going on with TSW3, it's a new and improved version with TSW2, with the experience that IS NOT at all the same; i.e. I can't replicate the experience because there's many substantial features to differentiate between the two.

I feel like many of the people against this argument are way too eager to point out "but hey, these other games generate sales because people buy them anyways."
Yeah, but people aren't buying them blindly. These are completely rational human beings who are making their own purchase decision.
"Just because they sell well doesn't mean they're a great game."
I get what you're thinking, but this statement doesn't genuinely make sense at the base level.
If a game is terrible, no one's gonna buy it. It's that simple. Even more so, the concurrent player count will drop if the community feels that the game isn't good enough. Look no further than BF2042 for that.
Clearly, a game needs to be good enough to convince most of the player base to continue investing in it. That's the state where TSW lives in right now, if it wasn't obvious enough.

Some people might see this and think it's weird, or that the game is flawed and that we're just paying for patches. Sure, that's the cynical way of looking at it.
But I see progress. The jumps from TSW1/2020 to TSW2 was huge, and so will this jump from TSW2 to TSW3. Enough changes and tweaks have been made as to make things feel different. You can blindly show screenshots of each iteration to someone and I'm sure they wont have an issue discerning either games. They all got a different feel to them. I'm getting something new that was not there before.

I personally wouldn't mind paying for TSW3, because as a customer I feel like I'm getting a decent amount of new content for a price that reflects the effort that was taken to bring all these long-needed changes.
I see progress, I'm happy with the game. That's kind of all there is to it.

 

Oh yeah, that "snow cloud" as the ICE was driving looked totally terrible!
Also, the rain windshield and snow windshield effects still look like in a 2001 game. Really bad.

But the game will probably still stutter on high end 2022 hardware.