Tsw 3 - An Insult To The Tsw Community

it does, people are commenting that on the live streams it's stuttering as bad as TSW2.. if not more, and when people ask about this in the live streams they get ignored.

some people will make excuses that streaming and playing a game is hard on the computer... but surely DTG have the fastest, latest and best computers available,
it's not like they have to balance having enough money left to buy food for the family against buying a new GFX card... they are not a little indie game maker doing this in their spare time.


I know i'd be using an external hardware capture card for the streams, offloading that task from the game playing computer to give it the best chance of looking good... especially when showing off to potential new customers.

 

Stuttering on livestreams has little to do with the originator's hardware, and everything to do with YouTube's servers and switcher nodes

 

but then wont the stuttering be seen throughout all the livestream... i.e. when people are talking, that should stutter too?

 

Not necessarily- playing a video over a livestream often results in the two framerates not being in sync with each other

 

yeah that makes sense,

 

That's exactly why I said opinions will vary.

Also just because a games sells doesn't make it immune from criticism or a good game overall. If these games were good then they wouldn't have the criticism they have received. F1 22 wasn't positivity received despite the sales numbers due to all of the bugs, but hey apparently that doesn't make sense. I guess all the criticisms of the madden games somehow aren't valid. Sure some may like the games, but that's doesn't mean the game may have a overall positive reception. Game companies will hype up there game and act like they are bringing these revolutionary new features (surprise, surprise) only for it to basically be similar to it's previous version with minor changes. There are not moving the bar forward or progressing, they are just being stagnant Not revolutionary new changes. Madden 22, mixed reviews, fifa 22, mixed reviews on both pc and console. F1 22, mixed reviews on steam. Now before someone tells me that the reviews are, lying, spam or don't tell the whole story, does the reviews of the DB BR 187 not matter or are not reflective of the product? Sure some may like the the product, but that doesn't mean the product is good overall and yes reviews are subjective, but that's doesn't make the criticism invalid or not reflective of the product. Yes people will still buy if they think it's good, but lack of competition is also another factor as to why people buy and companies can continue this business model and make money.

Also some people do buy games blindly. Case in point, look at NASCAR 21 Ignition. There were some that pre ordered the second it was announced and the developers promised a better game with revolutionary new features. But the game turned out to be terrible and buggy, with a very bare career mode and the devs essentially lied to players about the promises that Ingition would deliver. Thus the game didn't sell too well. Has mostly negative reviews. Motorsport Games's stock have tanked and have been at red (trading at 63 cents) and the company is basically losing money. Their BTCC game was supposed to come out this year but that hasn't happened and there has been no news and some are questioning if they will be able to make future products.

Whilst the player number in BF2042 remains steady, it's one of the worst user rated games ever and EA are aware of that. Just' because people play it doesn't mean it was positively received.

About the TSC point though. TSC and TSW do have some similarities. Just because TSC is PC only doesn't mean a similar pricing model could've been adopted. Yes TSC has an editor which seems to be carrying the game (although some of DTG's recent dlc's have been pretty good), but DTG did want to release an editor for TSW but couldn't due to licensing. DTG also saw profit gains as was pointed out in this thread so I highly doubt they would lose money if they adopted a similar pricing model to the one Doomotron suggested but hey DTG can do whatever they like.

You see progress in tsw 3. But frankly TSW 3 is basically an attempt to improve and clean up the mess that TSW 2 was along with fixing DTG's self inflicted design flaws. Implementing features seen in other games and that was introduced to tsw 2 via mods such as thunderstorms isn't really progress. Sparks were in tsw 2 IOW and were built into the game engine prior was never implemented. So far the snow effects look horrible but granted it's still a WIP. It will be interesting to see how they improved the lighting although that's something they should've done a long time ago considering that a modder improved station lighting, and other smaller games with smaller studios have better night time lighting. It is nice though that TSW 3 is finally getting longer routes.

Overall TSW 3 is essentially what should've been. It's good that these features are being implemented but it's an update to a previous game behind a paywall. Not unusual in the gaming industry, but frankly this can't keep having this cycle continue in tsw. TSW 3 is doing things that should've been done in the past. That's not being cynical, it's just the reality. TSW 2 was supposed to be progress, and it's been scrapped essentially. Now TSW 3 is supposed to be better with the same/similar reasoning we have heard in the past, but what happens if a TSW 4 is locked behind another paywall? If DTG can't make TSW 3 better and improve on their mistakes and not repeat them only to make another paid version available, then it's not moving the franchise forward, it's just going back to square one

 

Currently I have the standard bundle sat in my basket, but if Cajon doesnt include working distance counters, then this will be taken out and I'll go with the German starter set which will still give me 4/5 routes but will save me a tenner. True I lose the 4 day early access but I can live with that.

 

TSW4 (whenever that comes in the next couple of years or whatever), most likely will be behind a paywall because it's a title update. Same as with what's going now, and same as what happened before with TSW2. Again, the strive for doing better never ends.
Yeah, TSW2 was promised to be better than TSW1/2020, and it delivered on that. TSW3 with the information we have so far, is likely gonna go the same way.

It's an update to what was there previously, but it's a big substantial update with many improvements and fixes to it.
Again, this goes back to what I was saying with those comparisons to other games. They all do it too. Each iteration is really just a big update to what was there before. That's how it has always worked. That is the point I am saying.

If it's been this way for soo long, with many other games to compare it to, why is a title update suddenly such a bad thing?
I guarantee you this won't even be a thing that people will be talking about in like two months because this argument doesn't carry much weight to it.

Like, I get it, there's a lot of criticism to be had in a bunch of different areas with TSW. I, myself, will be more than happy to point things out and criticize this game as well. But I find myself questioning a lot of things that get said in this thread.
I will be very interested in seeing what the feedback would look like, compared from now to the first couple of weeks after launch.

 

makes me speechless

 

Funny thing is I am a new player, and I already feel burned because the stuff i bought 1.5 months ago is not going to be supported going forward. I now have to spend a minimum 59 dollars to get priority for Preservation crew updates that are now coming for tsw3 before tsw2. I now have to spend $59 to access to future dlc. I bought TSW2 and spirt of steam thinking that more content would be coming but now i have to spend more to spend more. I am no longer going to buy DTG games.

I was happy to spend hundreds of dollars on Paradox studio games over the years because i was did ot have to buy the same base game over and over and over again.

 

but to some people, these updates are not really that big or exciting.

people have had weather like thunderstorms and lightning with a small mod (a simple download and place it in the DLC folder, and you get new weather to choose from in the game)

a dynamic weather system was available with a little more work to set up.

at least one TSW2 route had near perfect lighting already, and the work of a modder who changed the station lighting settings made driving in the dark a much nicer experience on some other routes.

sparks have been available in TSW2... but turned off except for wheelspin sparks... said to be for epilepsy reasons,
Did IOW2 get to use 3rd rail sparks?


The big things that affect all routes. the limited stock draw distance, the sharp cutoff of the shadow draw distance, the stutters, all seem to still be present in TSW3,

 

Again these sports games do what is frankly expected to do. You would expect the 2022 F1 cars to drive different than the 2021 F1 cars. The fundamentals and gameplay haven't changed. You would expect the reason madden game to have the current season roster but the experience has barley changed. I can go on but these are not major updates or features you seem to think they are. It's frankly what's expected for a yearly sports game hence why they have received the repuptation they have because they aren't revolutionizing. They change what needs to be change, keep the fundamentals and act like it's a new game. That's why they have the reputation they have

Thunderstorms are not a major feature. It was in a tsw2 mod. There were sparks in IOW. Dynamic weather was already in the game engine but never implemented. Station lighting was already improved via a mod. Not to mention other smaller studios with their games already having better lighting, thunderstorms and effects for a long time. But at least we get longer routes.

So it's easy to say but other game studios do the same so why not DTG but it's not a black and white as it seems and first impressions do matter regardless if the product isn't out yet. If it doesn't to you then that is fine but to say otherwise is just absurd. Alot of games have been judged by their first impressions. Happens all the time.

 

To be fair, the stuttering could be streaming related

 

I could understand the frustration. I am not even sure of many game developers who announce their games less than a month before launch. Doesn't seem a good idea but there are probably some developers who have done that in the past

 

then wouldnt the person doing the stream say so?

i know if i was showing of a new version of the game and i wasn't actually getting stutters, and people started asking questions in the live stream about the stutters they were seeing, instead of ignoring them all, i'd be saying something like 'i am not getting stutters on my computer, so if you are seeing them they must be due to youtube'

ya know, some sort of reassurance that TSW3 is not going to have one of the most annoying aspects that TSW2 has... of course that will depend on the power of the computer end users play the game on.... but if a multi million pound company is not using the latest and greatest computers available, there's something wrong.

 

A lot of these are only taken advantage of by a select few people, or arent really completely implemented into the game.
Isle of Wight 2022 is the first route in the game to intentionally include 3rd rail sparks. (Though honestly, Rivets implementation doesn't look nearly as nice as DTG's previews on TSW3)

Bringing these features into the base game enhances the experience for everyone regardless of platform or modding capabilities. And they look far far better than what is "there" currently. With the way they're being implemented into the main game, it changes up the whole feel and experience.

When it comes to the other issues like draw distance and shadows, those have a direct, heavy impact on performance, hence why they're soo short.
Draw distances are actually really short in other games as well, this isn't unique to TSW either. Look really closely at graphically-intense games like Red Dead Redemption 2 or Ghosts of Tsushima. They have short draw distances too, particularly with grass.
The difference is that they're more cleverly hidden with certain map-building techniques and other technical stuff.

While I do agree with you, these issues definitely need to be resolved, I don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be. The Distance Field Shadows feature does a decent job at alleviating the issue at least.

 

They probably missed the comments. They do get alot of comments in chat. Granted I didn't watch the stream live so maybe there are reasons why they didn't respond

 

Ooh, ya might be on to something there.

 

The same excuse on impacting performance has been the same for the past 5 years. We have 9th gen consoles and god knows how many gpu's have released since. There have been some that have modified the draw distance on their pc with tsw 2 with no performance impact at all so I do doubt the reasoning a bit.

Rather than leaving 9th gen plaers locked to the default setting and pc players to hack the game, DTG should give players the option to customize the settings in game. A performance or quality option of sorts similar to what other games have. Let players decide things like draw distance because there is no reason for the game to be locked down in that area for powerful hardware. If performance is really that bad with higher draw, then I guess DTG's poor optimization record has not improved in this area.

 

I've seen a lot of good discussion in this thread over the last few days, and one of the best things I have seen is people saying that calling TSW 3 an insult to the community is a bit much. I agree, and I equate that saying to calling TSW 3 a new game, it's a bit too much. That's clickbait for you though, but it brought out the point that DTG continues to ignore the longstanding customer base that wants so have a relationship with it.

This is not the first time I've crafted a thread like this that has generated this level of discussion, I've done it in prior releases too. What is clear though is there is a longstanding issue where DTG seeks profit over building a community and accepting criticism. I've said this about prior releases, I would guarantee there were meetings DTG had where they knew they'd have upset fans based on their own market research and history with TSW 3. Yet, they steamed ahead with it.

Some have thrown out the occasional 'inflation' and 'gas, eggs, bread are more expensive' lines here too. The purpose of this thread has nothing to do with the current state of any domestic or international economies. I would not care if DTG sold this game for $70 to new players, it's the fact that existing TSW 2 owners have to pay the same amount for updates that I think is a problem. This thread has a lot of players who agree with that too, confirming my thesis that the TSW 3 pricing scheme upsets the player base.

Let's move onto the sports games now too. As others mentioned, they suffer the same criticism, but most offer something that DTG doesn't offer, multiplayer. Players might complain about prices, but if they want to play in lobbies that guarantee quick matchmaking, the latest title will offer the best bet. Furthermore, there is a desire for players to have the latest lineups, fields/tracks, rule sets, and that future drives sales. Server maintenance for that costs money too. I'm not saying that the this is the excuse, but there is an experience having the new sports games provides that TSW 3 will not.

Finally, let's look at the live streams. When DTG Protagonist joined the team, he was supposed to be the person to call out DTG, be a voice for the community, and ask the uncomfortable questions. As I expected, this was more a ploy rather than a true breath of fresh air, as you can see by the responses we've received, the marketing lines run deep. TS is a niche market, but one that doesn't have to be that way. If DTG offered discounts for existing players, or new features that really revolutionize gameplay (like multiplayer with dispatching) rather that fixes that should be free from the base HH game, I think this community would be more excited. Instead, we are feeling the same feelings we had the last few times they have done this trick.

 

As I just said in another thread they are really just a PR exercise, you are not going to get someone who works for the company going all cross examination like Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men, on someone he's probably sitting opposite at lunch or having a few ales with down the pub later. I'm not sure how they can address that, maybe the "Ambassadors" should be enlisted to host/moderate the session. Then again they seem to have vanished in the face of all the TSW3 hullaballoo and, with no disrespect, seem to be ardent DTG supporters anyway. Okay we all support them to some extent but there's a difference between closing your eyes and seeing everything as rosy and enjoying the game but not being afraid to criticise or call the company out on the issues that matter.

 

I've called the company out on issues plenty of times and come to the conclusion it's a waste of time.

We have jd popping into discussions here and there but what he relays to the company and what the company actually do about it are 2 entirely different things.

I'm staying positive around tsw3 can't really complain about something I haven't played. Complaints will be unheard anyway.

 

To be fair, they did say they wouldn’t be answering questions in the roadmap streams. It might be worth asking the question in the Q&A thread and see if they address it in Tuesday’s Q&A stream.

 

Then why do DTG keep lying and pretending that biyearly paid upgrades aren't their business plan?

 

And the generic pre-programmed response is

"If you have any questions or suggestions then please post them in our forum at www.wedontgiveamonkeyswhatyousayanyway.com/forum/questionsandsuggestions/recylebin/bin"

 

You forgot "if it's not on the roadmap..."

 

I mean would you really expect a DTG employee to ask a fellow colleague hard questions as if they are on trial?

Alot of the streams ars just PR anyways. It feels like watching used car salesmen trying to over hype and sell a car that sounds good but in the end has a ton of issues along with avoiding the hard questions.

 

That's an interesting one, given removing the save game now breaches the VDU usage guidelines. Even though they shouldn't this will make some people sit in front of the monitor longer than they should to finish a run in one go. Okay they might do that regardless, but surely the game developer is obliged to put in checkpoints or a save system where extended gameplay is required, to comply with the guidance?

 

Not very good second-hand car salesmen at that.

I find it bizarre that given DTG's track record (What a Pun!) so far to date that so many people put their faith into pre-ordering like kids on the playground that want the next best thing or like somehow DTG are going to run out of copies of the game.

I remember someone saying on a EA forum that to get EA to even acknowledge any of the problems in the game was to hold fast on the pre-ordering of the next one. Even if you are dead set on getting it just wait until the official date of release. But then not enough listen and go and do it anyway and on a much, much smaller scale it seems people are the same here.

To me the people that invested in TSW2 are worth more, I got nowt against TSW3 coming out but not at this time. If they would fixed TSW2 to an acceptable standard I would of happily gone to the newer version even if it is on the same engine but not now.

 

It doesn’t really, the game still has a pause, and even in a workplace you only need to take a short break from a VDU every hour even if your job is entirely on screen. The pause allows you to do that no problem.

 

Yes I guess they will also just say "sleep" the PC. Not really practical though especially if not intending to resume for several hours or even next day. Will the state of the game even restore correctly following a PC sleep?

 

Indeed. Or even next month! I haven't played a PC game for a couple of months. No chance to. Leave your game running and put the PC in sleep is impractical, infeasible, and giving the developer a poor excuse to agree and not hurry themselves in fixing the save game -- or, now, reinstating it.

 

Yeah, the pause is no good for long periods, only for short breaks, although I have kept the game on pause for long periods on occasion. It’s no substitute for a save.

 

sleep works fine. I use tsw as a screensaver whilst I work. When I go for lunch I pause and then sleep windows.,Never one issue

 

It's only fine for you and some others. Not for others like me -- not in any way at all, as per my post above. So we need a proper, working save game feature and that's that.

 

Yeah, it's so bizarre that on a forum dedicated to a game there would be people who like and enjoy the game, and who want to support it. Of course the more normal behaviour, as every very normal person knows, is spending your weekend on a forum for a game you don't like repeatedly saying how bad it is.

 

Oooo, hark at her! I don't spend my weekend on this forum and even for some bizarre reason I did, what business is it of yours? If I see a game I care about use bad practices I will call them out on it, it is what Forums are for and not only for people like you shouting 'Please Sir, can I pre-Order'.

 

What's VDU usage guidelines?

 

I have no idea, never knew it was mandatory to have a save option in games. I remember in the old days when the nes would be left on for days to keep your game state.

 

I thought the normal behavior was acting like a fanboy and criticize others when they give an opinion not concurrent to yours. I wouldn't be surprised if a person kept praising the game, you wouldn't even complain

People can be on this forum for whatever reason. Doesn't matter at all. If you don't like what's being posted, don't respond or just don't be on the forum. Simple

 

Laws for save games is something Im not aware of in the U.S and frankly it would be weird. What would be the punishment anyways? A $10,000 fine and 7 year prison sentence?

 

Somewhere like Europe I would imagine a €2,000,000 fine.

 

Health and safety regs for workplaces where workers use any kind of video display screen.

 

I did that also the first time I rented a PS1 and there was no memory card. It made my fist time Playing FFVII extra fun.

 

Ironically EA can make really good games when they try, but like DTG it's hit-and-miss whether they will. People want less FIFA 22 and more Need For Speed Heat, and DTG needs to have more Riesa to Dresden than SEHS1!

Wait until the save game police find out about Gran Turismo 4's three 24-hour races...

 

This is good to know. I let the PS4 sleep during a TSW2 run twice, and both times the console threw a blue-screen error on resuming. I haven't been letting Windows do it for that reason. Glad to hear Windows is better behaved.

 

Or you just plowed through it. When I was a kid, a friend with an Atari 800 computer fell in love with a game called Shamus, which was a maze game with every screen being an enemy-filled room. Crucially, this game didn't pause. So one day, he determined that he was going to beat this game in one sitting instead of starting fresh every day and having to remember his path and replay through it. One morning-to-night, eighteen-hour play session later, he had done it.

Do kids these days have this kind of endurance? Heck no. Their parents got laws passed instead.

 

ZX Spectrum. A game called Journey's End. It was a 3 part RPG style game where you first had to escape a dungeon, then make your way across a land to the castle and finally go through the castle and kill a dragon. Each section you had to press play on tape. The thing was there was two save points where you could use a blank cassette to save your game on. Although I used it a couple of times it always never seem to reload.

Or another problem I once had was with the first Tomb Raider. Where they was a section, where you had to pull yourself up onto a ledge and fight. I had somehow managed to save the game Just as I accidently fell to my death. So when you reloaded after you died, you got to see yourself let go of the ledge and fall to your death again and again and again. There was nothing you could do to prevent it.

Other games, such as Skyrim also have problems with saving games. Of course modders have made ways to help cut that problem out but there are plenty of other games that also have problems with saving their games. Like anything with programming, there will always be bugs no matter what and it is like playing Whack A Mole to sort them out. I say programming, as this is the case with any peice of softwear, be it from games to something you use at work. The only real way to get rid of bugs, is to, get rid of the human element doing the work. As humans are not perfect and never will be. Something I have also spotted is that most of the games that crash are running on the Unreal engine. TSW2 actually seems to be the only one which I don't seem to have crashes as much.

The thing that has annoyed me with this TSW3 is the fact we have got SEHS extended and not a new route. Don't get me wrong though I do like the route and I welcome the extra run down to Ashford, but I think that there is an hidden motive behind what they have done and that is there is a new route coming and it will be one based somewhere in the UK. So we will most likely need to buy that. I personally see the profitibility in doing it that way. Should it be WCML over Shap, that would actually please me. but will have just have to wait and see.

Well I shall finish now with my ramblings.

 

With regard to display screen guidelines, they were usually printed at the start of the game manual (pdf these days) and warn against extended time in front of the monitor or to immediately stop playing if you get eye flicker or other visual disturbances. Obviously there’s no legal backing to it and you will always get the nerds who decide 24 hours in front of the PC eating pop tarts while playing a game isn’t going to hurt them (until years later at the Eye Clinic). Nevertheless, it should be incumbent on any video game developer to ensure their software complies with this and offering a save game function, even a flawed one, is the best measure they can take.

All that aside I really don’t understand why DTG are being so stubborn about reinstating the save game. Or is it a case they already hard coded it out of TSW3 anyway and at this late stage impossible to get it back in the spaghetti? But spin their action as a desire to appease the user base, who with a few exceptions never said to take it away, but get on and fix the ballody thing.

NVM if the stream is to be believed the save game committee is having its first meeting tomorrow (no rush after deciding the course of action middle of last week), so let’s hope the first action point is not an adjournment down the pub for lunch…

 

I don't think anyone here has claimed otherwise. The problem is when a supposedly professional developer ignores a fundamental bug or set of bugs in a core feature for years and even carries them over to subsequent releases in a franchise. That's a major problem that isn't excused by other games having bugs in save games.

So where we are now, because of these years of silence and lack of effort or interest in fixing reported bugs, especially the save ones, is that they have finally said they're working on fixes -- but nobody quite knows whether to take their word for it.

Yes, all games have bugs, though most are weeded out before release, others are weeded out after release, and a good developer/publisher listens to bug reports and feedback and acts as quickly as possible. That hasn't been the case here.

And, like the Tomb Raider perma-death save issue (which applied to many games in the fledgling era of save implementation), this is all down to bad design at the outset. Whoops. A genuine mistake. Forgiveable. But it isn't an acceptable mistake to stick your fingers in your ears for years and close your eyes.