Tsw 3 - An Insult To The Tsw Community

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Typhomat, Aug 10, 2022.

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  1. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    oh I agree it needs a save. Just stating that method is one that can be used if you want to dip away for a bit
     
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  2. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Certainly the save game needs fixing and quickly in my opinion, I certainly don't think it should be disabled whilst they fix it.

    However this is an interesting commentary on society. If you need a save game feature to enable you to have a break and would therefore just sit at your PC for 3 hours without taking a break, then frankly you shouldn't even own a computer.

    What happened to common sense and personal responsibility!
     
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  3. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Fully agree. Though of course the counterpoint is that you will sit in the cinema or in front of the TV of an evening watching a two hour movie. Then again you are not hard focused on the picture or interacting with it in the same way as a game. Also more likely to wander off to the kitchen to make a brew, go to the loo etc.
     
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  4. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It works both ways.

    People who are positive seem to attract resentment or even ridicule on occasions for enjoying the game, those who criticise get moaned at for moaning, if I am honest I have probably been guilty of the latter on occasions. I used to be called a fanboy at one time which was inaccurate, although I had a more positive outlook regarding TSW in the early days. Quite frankly using terms like fanboy is a bit silly and divisive and in the end we are all train enthusiasts or trainsim enthusiasts whatever era, area or type of trains.

    There are some on here who do make me wonder why they bother to come here, as they seem to have such a loathing for the sim and never have anything positive to say, that it makes you wonder if they even play it, unless they are closet players who don't want to admit it! I don't know why some people seem to treat DTG as though they are their personal enemy.

    The bottom line for me is, if I had such a dislike for TS1/TSW/DTG etc I wouldn't be spending anytime on the forums moaning about it, I have far better things to do.
     
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  5. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    I´d call the thread title a little harsh. Afterall, nobody has an obligation to purchase DTGs DLCs. So far so good.

    But this whole TSW3 story left me with a very bad taste in the mouth. This blatant lie that "there will be a summer hiatus for focusing on bug fixing" and suddenly they came up with TSW3 (whatever that will be) DOES trigger memories of naughty used car sales men.
    And I did something very stupid: I just summed up what I´ve spent since November 2021 in Dovetail DLCs.

    Juicy € 553,80 went into this, of course, all the bugs included. Not only did I pay for the bugs (some I don´t care) but also NEW bugs were introduced with uncountless "up"dates. The nasty 30th of May SoS patch to mention in the first place.
    God in Heaven, I don´t really need to ask my wife to come to a conclusion. This is too much! Much to much!

    Enough!
     
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  6. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    True, I suppose at the PC you are generally closer to it so it is harder on your eyes. I spend my working day in front of a monitor and go for a walk every hour or so. I currently play TSW/C from my sofa on a largish TV and have found I get too relaxed and more likely to nod off than when I played it at a computer desk on a smaller monitor!
     
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  7. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. I'm not sure if anyone is treating it that way. Maybe I'm wrong. But I need a save game, not to take a break because otherwise I'll sit there for a few hours until I finish a route -- no, not at all. The point is I won't sit down for that long, and also I don't have that kind of time available in one sitting anyway, hence I need a save game to keep coming back in short bursts when I can.
     
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  8. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    The real reasonDTG has got a bad press and dissatisfaction on these forums is that ever since the series started they have been exceptionally dilatory in their release of patches and fixes.
    You can only blame distribution problems so much.

    Their priority has been so fixed on releasing new routes that fixing what was broken has been neglected.
    An occasional lapse would be acceptable but year after year of things remaining broken has destroyed a lot of goodwill amongst their supporters.

    The formation of Adams team was a great idea, but it's implementation has been incredibly frustrating.
    Being told fixes were in the pipeline month after month is just unacceptable.
    It's no wonder forum members anticipate more of the same.

    I
     
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  9. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Still better than what happened with TSW2020 --> TSW2, having a remake of Sand Patch Grade and NEC New York - New Rochelle not being ported over...

    From all the bad things DTG did, the one that bothers me most is not having my TSW2020 route preserved... at least they sold me the ACS-64 again...
     
  10. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    Also, if I'm watching a film these days it's rarely at the cinema, unless we're lucky enough to find a babysitter -- and it will be something we both want to do (my wife doesn't want to watch me play TSW). If we're watching a long film at home, which is difficult enough to fit in these days, but if we do chance it then we can easily stop it and resume where we left off the next day, because either on a streaming service or Blu-ray player it will remember where we left off (hey, look, it's pretty much a save function that works!) -- but I can't do that with a game that doesn't save. So I simply don't play such games.

    This is what a few people don't seem to grasp: TSW2 was sold to me -- all of us -- with a save game function, so I trusted it's going to work, because why wouldn't it? And it doesn't. When I started playing it, I was doing introductory scenarios, which are shorter, but long enough to know I like this game. So I bought a bunch of new routes in a sale. Then scenarios got longer. Then I tried to save and discovered it didn't work. Maybe a glitch. Tried it again. No. Looked it up online and discovered the truth: that this has been allowed to go on for years, across versions of TSW.

    If I had known any of this, I never would have bought it in the first place. And it's a shame if a developer (more to the point a publisher, who ultimately controls everything; but I think DTG are their own publisher, which is part of their problem in a way) doesn't care enough to save the reputation of their product and sales...

    Saying that, though, the reputation of the product seems good, if you take reviews at face value, and they aren't getting bad press attention. And I don't think it helps if people excuse them for everything, like the person who said, to paraphrase, but they are a business, their goal is to make profit, so therefore they're doing a good job and I'm satisfied with that... Hmm. No, I'm not. A business is supposed to deliver on their promises, to satisfy their customer. If I ordered a cheeseburger from McDonald's and they gave me only a slice of cheese between the buns, I wouldn't say, Excuse me, Sir, there's no burger on this bun -- but you've made a profit from me, so that's a job well done, thank you, I'm a happy customer.
     
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  11. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I just hope they've done enough to the core fixes behind the scenes that it doesn't take 2 years to give you something you paid for at launch anymore, that's a real excrement shower when everything else gets released around it
     
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  12. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Yes because in the real world when you take 10 hours + train trip you can just save and get off the train when you get bored.
    Also train drivers that do 8 hours + shifts just get out of the cab and leave whenever they get tired. For some of us doing long runs is a pleasure and not a chore because trains are our thing
    I even did 4-5 + hours scenarios in TSC without issues, pausing the game for long periods of time if I had something to do (you know you can do that right)
    I find your comment and reasoning below insulting to anyone that plays competitive games or likes to hang out a few hour In front of the computer doing their favourite stuff for multiple hours.

     
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  13. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think you misunderstood what I was saying or maybe my response was clumsy. I was musing that if someone needs telling to take a break and can't decide for themselves then there is a problem.

    I think taking the save game function away from TSW albeit temporarily is a bad thing, I regularly save long scenarios on TSC.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
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  14. RizGE777

    RizGE777 Member

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    I agree, and this is exactly what I have said in another thread. Because in my opinion, a better approach would have been for DTG to develop TSW 3 on the UE5 engine once they had the expertise, and continue fixing the current issues with TSW 2 and include a working save feature, in the meantime.

    Still being on the same UE 4.26, simply does not justify upgrading to TSW 3 for me.
     
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  15. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    This is not the only game with save problems - X-Plane has them, for similar reasons. The background activity is so intense and variable that the program cannot always save 'states', so that, in XP for instance, a plane will resume flight at the precise position it was in, with most systems as before, but with the throttles at zero, or flaps retracted - you are never sure what will need to be corrected - FAST - you get the point. At least you can pause TSW2 - with XP, pausing the game does not stop the program running in the background and hogging resources. There are good reasons why XP, in common with DTG, have not been able to address this.

    Of course DTG should fix this fast, but watch your blood pressure guys!

    And UE5 is still not a general thing and won't be for some time - do you really want to wait another 2 years for TSW3?
     
  16. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    Pausing isn't an option for me. We need to stop repeating this as if it's a solution; likewise, stop giving them excuses, like other games have save issues. DTG have been able to address this, and Matt has said they know how to address it -- they simply haven't bothered trying for all this time and so created a much bigger problem for themselves, now trying to unravel the issues on each route, instead of doing this after initial TSW launch and putting design specifications in place for all future routes.

    The major issue is with red lights getting permanently stuck along the route, so your only choice is to restart from scratch anyway. Matt has indicated that this is solvable. All they need to do really is solve this major bug that results in failure of the route; at least you can deal with some systems not being reinstated, so long as you can actually make it to the end of a run to finish a scenario.

    I mean, I also believe it's entirely possible to save the state of things like flap positions in a flight simulator, given the effort, but that's irrelevant to the major red light save bug which is the real big issue in TSW.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Answer from many many people...
    "If it meant having a lot of the bugs fixed, old routes brought up to date with new ones, better timetables, fixed dispatcher and better scenario planner, consist editor and the map rebuilt so you can tell whether that red light is one facing you, or a ground signal you can completely ignore, YES"

    TSW3 could (some would say should) be much much better than TSW2, and dynamic weather which has zero effect on AI so only a minor effect on the player (ie doesn't change gameplay generally) isn't really "a game changer"

    Yes, they've probably made the menus better, and yes there will be advantages to separating the locos from the routes but then they haven't even done that bit properly, because only the TSW3 specific DLCs have that facet included
     
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  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    This really isn't TSW3, it's more like TSW 2.2. It's frankly a smaller 'update' than Rush Hour was, which was free; and certainly doesn't mark such a comprehensive upgrade as to deserve being called v3.0
     
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  19. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Simply not true. It's way bigger.
     
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  20. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    exactly... people saying 'its a new game'.... but it looks very much like TSW2 with a few changes,

    a weather system that was already available in TSW2 with a few mods.....

    sparks... which again were available in TSW2 as IOW2 used them for the 3rd rail, sparks for wheelspin were already present... on the pc version at least.

    a different lighting system, but they already got the lighting looking amazing in one of the past TSW2 routes, and mods were available to alter the night time station lighting bringing an amazing difference.

    trains and routes are now seperated... but how does that affect things really.... if i want to buy the ICE1 train set without the route it is bundled with, can i?

    A new look to the menu, yes that was desperately needed, but how does that affect the core game?

    ---------


    Has the sound system been overhauled?
    is the draw distance increased?
    is the dispatcher more intelligent?
    do more things work in the train cabs.. or do we still have blank EBuLa screens?
    can we map keys to the switches in the cab that we want to use, or are we still stuck with the ones the dev's think we want to use?
    has the save feature been fixed?
    is multiplayer an option?
    can you re-map the raildriver buttons?
    can you reverse the raildriver levers so they move the same way the in cab levers move in non american trains?
    can you use joysticks to drive the trains (direct input)?
    is there an API to access train data like TSC has had since ~2015?
    does the 2D map have more info on it, bringing it upto the standard TSC has has for ages?
    is the stuttering fixed?
    and so on and so on....


    i know it sounds like i hate TSW... but i do like it, i just think it could be so much better than it is, but it needs work on the core, something they said they were going to do... but instead were working on TSW3.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
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  21. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that what they have done though, worked on the core? Surely that is what the lighting and weather improvements are? It appears they are trying to make it better.

    How much of an improvement TSW3 is, remains to be seen.
     
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  22. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    apart from the lighting (which people are saying still isn't great from the videos seen so far... especially exiting a tunnel during the day) almost everything else was already available in TSW2... with a small mod or 2, or a tweak to the .ini files.

    i guess the people who will notice things change the most are those on consoles... some of which will see wheel spin sparks for the first time in TSW3,


    to me the biggest annoyance of TSW is the stuttering and short draw distance, whilst i can change the latter with one line of text, the stuttering is not easily fixable... and i get about the same amount of stutters in the same places on a 3 month old gaming laptop as i do on a PC that was built in 2011... i just have to turn the quality sliders down on the PC compared to running everything on ultra / high on the laptop.
     
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  23. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    I might have misunderstood you post. Sorry :).
    Also I do agree that a working save system is required for any scenario. Even when I do a long session I save from time to time because you never know what could happen, maybe game crashes, or you get stuck at red light (loading a save would fix this in TSC), or even making a big driving mistake like SPAD after 1+ hour drive. Loading a save is far better than starting over, and almost any game has some sort or save or checkpoint system in place.


     
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  24. Der Uni

    Der Uni Well-Known Member

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    The Reason (among some others) for me that the Release of TSW3 is an absolutely Insult to the TSW Player-Base is, that I and You all have spend so much (some of your perhaps less) Money for TSW2020 or TSW2 and get a concrete Punch in your Face now.

    Don´t get me wrong: For me its ok, when a DLC e.g. The Harlem Line is released and there are some Bugs (like the endless Red Signals) and Yes, this could have been completely prevented with an extensive Beta test, but ok, give him the Chance to fix it. They have my Money and i get Bugs fixed...This is how it should be...

    But now I have to read that I get a bugfix for a content that i have bought, only if I pay for it again and buy "a new Game" or a TSW2 2.0 (for me this is never a "New Game")? This is absolutely unacceptable and THAT for me is a complete Insult...
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    People can do whatever they wish whenever and wherever. Doesn't matter if they are on the forum or some other site for a few hours. People can do whatever they like. It's like criticizing someone who sits at a zoo for hours in one exhibit only. So what if they just are there for that one exhibit. Sure a person may or should have better things to do but it's not anyone's business to judge what a person does on a day by day basis or what they are doing. Doesn't affect anyone else nor yourself. If a person has better things to do, fine, but people shouldn't judge others for being on a forum just because they have "better things to do" Just don't pop up on the forum if they have better things to do.
     
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    So if I am playing game and something important or an emergency pops up out of nowhere and I have to tend to that, I would be irresponsible because I couldn't manage my time because of something out of my control happening?

    You know why most games have save features right? Heck even steaming services and youtube have effectively a save feature where it will remember where you left of a movie/show or a video.
     
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  27. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    what do you see UE5 improving?
     
  28. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Got to love a bit of sarcasm! :D:D
     
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  29. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Seems that lots of people here thing that a switch to UE5 would automatically make all better looking. But that is not what happens. The huge amount of work to make TSW just work with UE5 would show nothing fancy. It just would work with UE5. So, maybe half a year for the team for nothing to show to the customer and just able to say "we using UE5" now. Gives nothing to the player experience at all, just will raise costs to the Moon and then to Mars.
     
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That isn't what I said or implied!
     
  31. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Glad someone with some knowledge inputted here , thank you.
    Too many people saw that bloody station video and assume that’s what DTG should be delivering.
     
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  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    But... but... that thirty second non-interactive trailer that people have seen is so much better than the interactive 100 mile thing they've got, and that's on UE5, so UE5 must mean that it's possible. So that means DTG must just be rubbish money grabbing non-developers who can't get anything right...

    ***NOTE HEAVY IRONY***
     
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  33. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    ARuscoe I'm sat wait for the people to tell us “you’re all wrong and DTG could/should”

    I ran that matrix demo in a 2080ti and i9. I cranked the detail up on that and it bent my pc over backwards.

    If 18 yr old Gary wants to try and run that on is Xbox I’ll gladly watch it melt., one less gen 8
     
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  34. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    I didn't even knew the video. So i just watched it go get an idea what people may expect. Eh, yeah, lol. This will never happen with a real working train simulator these days. Not with UE5 or whatever other fancy new engine. It's a pre-baked, simple and static scene that uses the new Nanite and Lumen techniques to show off. I'm pretty sure is said it somewhere and people can read it everywhere in the docks of Nanite: it does not work on skeleton meshes. Trains in TSW are skeleton meshes (they need to). So that's the no-go for the trains (and passengers too of course AND anything else that uses a skeleton what is basically all animated stuff and of course the foliage can't do it). Making stations to gain that quality may work BUT the amount of work that needs to go in is just enormous. So i would not expect that too soon for a game like TSW. Most games that will use these new things relatively early are games that consist of 95% static scenery (like most first/third person single player shooter/adventure games - not simulators. Yes, i know, whe have just seen today the 45min marketing-bla video for Subway Sim Hamburg and yes they are using UE5. But what whe see there looks nothing like UE5, not even like TSW3. Massive low poly stuff, especially the train looks bad and has lots of issues but is prominent posed to the audience in that state. Lets see how it looks in about a year when it maybe get released as a single route (non mod-able) game.
     
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think it's natural that everyone wants to newest / best / fastest, so I'll give them license to dream. Unfortunately many people cannot see that dreams take a lot of work to pull off in real life
     
  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    People do tend to liken TSW to things like MSFS and Truck sims rather than driving games or whatever.
    But I think you're right, it will be major studios or people direct with Epic that bring out the high quality graphic games first. But I doubt they could do a decent fist of train physics (they're welcome to prove me wrong, so long as they only charge £25 for the privilege)
     
  37. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    UE3 came out in 2006, UE4 in 2015, UE5 just this past April. It has many years of tweaking and bug fixes ahead of it. Let the big AAA studios, who have to use the newest software to compete to be the biggest and best, and who have the extra budget and manpower, work with Epic on pounding UE5 into submission. DTG has enough on its hands trying to pound TSW into submission without also fighting with a new engine that they don't really need right now.
     
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  38. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to see your explanation for why the scenery in shooters is more "static" than that in TSW.
     
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  39. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    You're right and I think we all know it's not a seismic overhaul of the game.
    And, leaving aside the save game debacle ( Wife says I'm talking about it in my sleep now ), if the visual effects, especially the " new " lighting, eye adaptation and weather don't live up to the hype, we're all gonna have that bemused, quizzical look on our faces, muttering unprintable things under our breath.
     
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  40. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    You always have the "speak easy" of the Alan Thomson FB page to vent inclusive of the odd expletive, as I have already done in one of the TSW3 threads!
     
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  41. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I remember seeing an article on a japanese/Korean(?) gamer who did like 18hrs solid in front his screen and was found dead, youngish lad to I think. There might of been complications or might not I can't remember fully. I think different people can handle longer sessions more than others and no I'm not saying it is healthy to do so either. I used to do regular 4+ hour sessions a few years ago now when I used to be into Total War multiplayer, a lot of the time was setting up a stable session and getting everyone into the game, lol.

    I agree, I honestly think if DTG had come out and said we are bringing out TSW3 either next year or the year after but we are concentrating of fixing core issues in TSW2 I don't see half as many complaints.

    Have to agree.

    So why couldn't have DTG do all these so called core updates for TSW2 and then further down the line release TSW3 with UE5?
     
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  42. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I presume that as this is the PC forum, you are playing on PC and have access to these mods. Approximately two thirds of the user base play on console though and these mods are not available to them.
     
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  43. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    my biggest gripe with TSW3 is that they are telling us it a totally new game... but it's not, it's TSW2.3 to me... with some fixes that should have been done long ago.



    will it be a year or 2 years before TSW4 comes out on UE5... because by then it'll have been realised that UE4 is restricting the games progress?

    I bet people would see a UE5 version more as a new game than TSW3 is.
     
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  44. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    exactly, and what i'm gettin at is that half the stuff that is said to be new for TSW3 has been available in TSW2 for ages if you played the game on PC.
     
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  45. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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  46. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    I'd personally like a technical explanation of what went on in the core engine that required so much it warranted a bump in game version. From where I stand right now, we've been told doing the training center was the reason. As an outsider with some programming background, I don't see how building a separate route and using it as the "home route" for locos in the future is a massive breaking change. Similarly to the lighting and clouds - they add new features to individual routes all the time and the the new lighting and clouds aren't core since they aren't added onto existing content (unlike something like dynamic weather). They might require some core features, but since everything is version controlled it doesn't affect all content automatically. Hence, why I'd like something more technical. Otherwise I agree that this isn't a significant update and should've been a free core update to TSW2 with the new route bundles.

    Above comments sum up UE5 perfectly. Even if DTG had gotten up to speed and were experts on UE5, it would look exactly the same as it does now with UE4, even with the new technology. We're still a long way from full fledged simulation running alongside heavy graphics computation in real time for full scale games like those UE5 demos, on home consumer hardware - especially if you want 4k 60fps since that's apparently the "recommended" specs now.
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It came off that way to be honest
     
  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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  49. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    There are some good other reasons to do that. I can't tell what and why. I doubt DTG would tell you. But it seems you have some experiences in these things. Maybe you get the idea by yourself.
     
  50. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Money would be the simple answer really

    $$$$$$$$$
     
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