Spirit Of Save

Somehow I guessed it, "typical DTG move" (sorry) to release anyway

 

Less than two weeks ago. First on SEHS with trains backed up between Ebbsfleet and Stratford, then an all stations grind from Chemnitz to Dresden after saving and resuming at Freiberg. That's the run I'm currently doing using the "E" system, should finish the test this evening.

The problems do seem to be random though, for example the other week I successfully resumed a Brighton to Victoria service without issue.

 

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I definitely just got lucky then. It will be interesting to see if you can successfully save on those journeys using the theoretical E and disembark method.

If it really does work 100% of the time, I could live with that way of saving -- only until they get it fixed properly (not an acceptable permanent "solution").

I'm looking forward to the next Q&A and/or roadmap stream, where I expect a further (positive) update on save, and progression towards reinstating it.

Honestly, I understand the complainants over TSW3, because I share them (you said A, then gave us C), but if I get it in a sale and view it more like paying for the new routes (I don't own SEHS either), then I will get it for the extra nicities they've added like dynamic weather and training centre -- but absolutely only once there is a save game feature in place, and not until then.

 

Regarding saving outside the train: I used the save while walking the SKA line, and after restoring later, I came across a line of stopped AI trains due to a red signal up ahead.

I seem to be in the vocal minority, but even though I've used the save myself while walking lines and as a failsafe when bringing a freight train up to a very narrow stopping window, I still think DTG is right to remove it until they can make it reliable. Hopefully, Matt pulling people off other teams will speed the repair process further. Maybe they'll even get lucky and have it fixed before release? Light a candle.

 

I don't trust them for that.

 

And what is your personal interim solution in the meantime? Or are you able to spend several hours running a freight service on Cajon, for instance. Many of us cannot. I can usually play for 30-45 minutes, occasionally an hour.

 

I don't mind them removing it while investigating (I'm not even going to buy TSW3 while it's missing anyway), getting it working properly, then reinstating it -- so long as that is actually what they do. And I can understand some scepticism over that promise, because it seems they have made so many promises that never materialised.

Having said that, I can see Matt's passion for it, and to get it fixed. He is obviously putting things together to get it sorted. But we have to hope that the people above him, with overall control, don't pull the plug on it.

 

So a little "tongue in cheek" here, want to drive trains realistically, then sit in the chair for 4 hours, have a cuppa, and drive another home for another 4 hours.

Sim or game? A sim reproduces the actual thing, a game lets you save progress...

 

The real thing is not sat squinting at a 2D screen.
The real thing does not have the wife wanting the PC to do something herself.
The real thing does not have the next door neighbour knocking for a moan/chat.
The real thing does not set you a 4 hour run before bedtime.
The real thing does not have the wife demanding you get off “that bloody computer” and do some DIY or gardening.
The real thing is a job that people are getting paid to do, not an entertainment pastime.

 

I got that you were only joking, but I'm sure someone else, the other day, in another thread, said the same thing but very seriously, i.e. how dare you complain about the save game feature when poor train drivers out there have to sit for 8 hours and can't walk away when they feel like it. And I was thinking, well, when DTG start paying us a salary to drive virtual trains in contracted shifts, then perhaps we can stop complaining.

 

Anyhow I wonder whether DTG would care to share with their customers what the outcome of their first Save Game Committee meeting achieved, in particular with regard to the points raised in this thread?

Specifically, will you bring back the old save system either for release or if insufficient progress is made on the new one within a reasonable* timescale.

* Please specify reasonable.

 

I agree, a 2 - 3 hour run is way too long for me to do in one go. We need save in there so it can be broken up.

 

Exactly. I think more people are going to start seeing the benefit (I say necessity) of save game. DTG must realise how essential it is too.

This is why I don't think, this time round, with the several consecutive updates on the save game issue so far and the declared depth they are going into investigating it fully, like putting a dedicated team together, it's simply just more talk. I want to believe this is one bug (or set of related bugs) that is not going to slide.

 

Update on the DCZ save by leaving train with E. Didn't work. However I think the reason is a bugged scenario. There is a freight at Tharandt that should have departed at 1052 but hasn't (still there at 1139), so the route is set for that train and against mine. So that train should have left prior to me saving and exiting the game yesterday evening so probably null and void for the purposes of this exercise (probably a hangover from the coupling bugs introduced with SoS).

So next over this evening then tomorrow, I will try the "E" method on the SEHS Journey,

 

Im going to assume the auto save for the reload last check point is also disabled? If thats the case and the derail bug still isnt fixed (ive derailed this evening on HSC reducing the dynamic brake from 2 down to 1, so please dont tell me its fixed) then its going to make Cajon impossible.

 

It sounds like there are new bugs I didn't know about that I need to watch out for? lol Or is this one that was introduced but now supposedly fixed?

It's difficult to do thorough testing, that's for sure, especially if testers are dealing with other bugs that could be doing similar things.

My current avenue (again, when I can) is to find a route that I can repeatedly break by saving, then try the E method to see if I can then repeatedly avoid the red light bug. That will be a good indicator that there's some truth in the theory, not merely coincidence.

EDIT: I have to say, though, if DTG are reading this, don't rely on me and OldVern to test this. It's what your team are paid to do lol

 

I am adding my thoughts into this mix. I am trying something on LBM and picked the UP Southern service 1A17 for it. First was to save 'normally', i.e., in the cab. Well, this one gave an interesting result. When the save issues come out, I have normally seen just about everything come to a stop. Well, on resume, I had done the save at Haywards Heath, I got about midway to Gatwick and hit a red. When I checked the map, everything else was moving, my train was the only one stopped. The map did not show a train stopped in front of me. A Down service passed me and the signals on the down side functioned properly. So, this is very random as we know. I am now going to rerun it and get out of the cab at Haywards Heath to save.

 

Yes, this is my experience too. You look at the map and every service is suddenly at a standstill, so that's presumably why the red signals don't clear. So this is a turn-up for the books if you've encountered a stuck signal on resume while the AI services are still running, if I've understood correctly.

 

March Hare, that is correct. All AI services were running normally after I got stopped. Now, did the second run with the same service 1A17. At Haywards Heath, I got out of the cab and walk a bit before saving. When I resumed, all seemed to be going well until I approached Thornton Heath and the real save issue was there. All AI services were stopped and, of course, I got my red. Map showed everything was at a standstill. So, this getting out of the cab got me further along but not all the way to London.

 

The point is not that a real train driver may work 8 hours. I am not a real train driver, I do not want to be a real train driver but I love tod rive a train for an hour and sometimes less. I do not want to keep my computer turned on for a number of reasons.

Apart from that, everyone is completely free NOT to use the save function, but if it is not there, I am not free to use it. The people considering this import do not want to oblige you to save, they just want the chance to use this function, despite all problems it has. And yes, DTG must fix it all ASAP.

BTW a real train driver would not have a choice to start his working day in the US, driving a heavy train over Sherman Hill and try a German ICE an hour later. So the comparison is not very good, it is more trying to find arguments for a point of view.

 

Thanks for this update Matt and this spreadsheet to input save game issues. Could you please put that link in a pinned post so its easy to locate when needed?

 

Fair enough Matt.

Obviously from the POV of many customers the current system does work well enough for most occasions or when using a less complex route and I do still feel it is a mistake not to at least have it as a fallback in TSW3. The worry is that despite the urgency this is being given, which I genuinely accept, it could be weeks or months before the solution is found and implemented. As I remarked in another thread, that just gives incentive to plod on in TSW2 rather than make the jump over to "3".

Just hope it doesn't take too long.

 

TrainSim-Matt Thank you for taking the time out to not only reply but to provide the data-gathering spreadsheet. I fear I will have little time to contribute to it, though I would like to, so I'll do my best.

I've said it before, but I do sense your passion with this and definitely very thankful for you to give it the serious attention it needs.

I trust you will get it sorted across the routes, and get it back into TSW3 so I can upgrade confidently.

I look forward to further updates as your team hones in on the resolution(s) and begins implementation.

You're a star!

 

I share your worries (though I've never used the save system much due to how broken it is). The PS5 DLC limit fix was also worked on with the highest priority and here we are, pretty much a year later, and still no fix (the promise of one soon doesn't count - the issue is fixed when the patch is released).

 

I hope the save functionality makes it in for the release of TSW3, at least for the 3 launch routes due to their lengths. I'm not fussed about it not being there for the legacy routes as I rarely used it for those (with the exception on some freight runs where the stop marker is right on a red signal)

 

I'm sure we all appreciate the commitment, MP. But a solution that takes several months, taking us into next year ( and more and longer routes ) is not especially helpful.

I still don't understand why, after the length of time we have been using this broken feature, which is better than nothing, it cannot be left in. Your reason only makes sense for new players. It works much of the time for many of us. Without it, many of us will not be able to play the longer routes, such as Clinchfield, Sherman Hill, Cajon Pass and my favorite Sand Patch Grade. What exactly do you suggest we do? You don't offer an interim solution.
Regards
Unhappy from Peoria.

 

There is no ideal solution; DTG ignoring the problem for years while the DLC library grew and grew guaranteed that. The only options are to leave the unreliable save in so experienced players who know the risks can still use it but sabotaging the games of new players who are expecting an actual working save, or take it out to avoid hurting those it would hurt but removing the option of informed risk from those who are fine with that. Six of one....

Unfortunately, now DTG has had to act at the worst possible time, i.e. simultaneous with releasing a game upgrade containing much longer routes that need a working save even more. Hopefully the lesson is learned for the future.

One thing I've also been wondering: Have the significant changes in the TSW3-specific routes caused the broken save function to break even harder on them?

 

TrainSim-Matt Is it possible to create your own pinned post about the save issues/reporting them with the link to the spreadsheet please? I said tongue-in-cheek about it being your team's job to test it, but of course user data and assistance is invaluable too.

I took another 30 minutes out last night to do more testing myself, but I just got lucky again as there were no save issues typically.

Sharon E Thank you for contributing to the spreadsheet.

Hopefully it will get more attention in a pinned post (without all the clutter and frustration), and we can get more users on board with testing.

 

As I said previously, Cajon in Run 8 takes a good 2.5 to 3 hours from San Bernadino to Barstow, depending on load and other traffic. Again while appreciating Matt having popped into the thread, the situation is still unsatisfactory and reflecting overnight, my determination not to buy until this is sorted is not wavering. Frankly putting TSW3 out without a save function relegates it to the purview of early access and maybe the price should reflect that.

 

Thank you for your reply Matt and we appreciate your effort. But no save and no hard deadline when we will get it back is not good enough for me. The argument of confusion for new players is true, but you may add a warning in game the first time you use the save function that it is not working reliable, when you resume. I said before, it is not as bad as you suggest now. In say 90% of the cases it is working as it should (ignoring minor issues as wipers or lights that are not completely reset). So I think the arguments to have it back are strong enough. For me, not having a save and a DTG quality of a promise to fix it someday, makes the game almost unplayable. And, how much I would like, I will not buy the update right now it is below the absolute minimum.

 

I'm not surprised. In the limited experiences that I've had with the save function not working on resume, it is often the AI trains which are culpable. Upon loading a savegame on BML I find that the AI drivers have suddenly forgotten how to close the doors and sit at stations indefinitely.

Cheers

 

However as I said in this case the stuck train should have moved off in my first play session so sounds like a different bug.

 

This spreadsheet may help a bit, but maybe it is time to create a serious bug reporting tool, that supports finding reported bugs back easier, has kind of a fixed format so you get better information, support to add decisions about follow up (it would be nice to know if something will never be fixed) and maybe the possibility to vote for a bug to increase/decrease its priority. In the technical reports section lots of examples exist about game save bugs and I experienced more that I reported.

 

I spoke too soon, as I resumed the last save on that run while I had a rare 15 minutes before work, and immediately the red signal bug with AI trains at a standstill kicked in. Recorded on the spreadsheet.

 

I think at least for now, the spreadsheet can help point the team to specific routes and scenarios where particularly the show-stopping red signal/AI trains come to a permanent halt bug is occurring, so they can test those routes/scenarios first, replicate the bug fairly quickly, and make the debugging process faster. Before they get into implementing more sophisticated reporting tools, this makes sense to me and I appreciate Matt's creating it for us -- and already demonstrating a greater commitment to this issue. So I really appreciate it.

 

My only slightly cynical view of the spreadsheet is why now and not months or even years ago, given the longevity of the problem. And with a logical progression from that, it makes absolutely no sense not to have the save in TSW3 so we can continue to test and report from there. Otherwise we are evaluating on the old code.

How about this for a suggestion? Create a beta or similar path in Steam for TSW3 owners as many other games do - including FSX - which retains and allows the save game. It requires action to sign up to it so players who opt in know what the scratch is.

 

Simple, don't release a "broken" game in the first place.

How about if a car manufacturer released a car that once it's in gear and moving won't stop until you shut it down, but don't worry they're going to fix it when they can!

It's too easy to release stuff, promise the world, keep delaying, until eventually here comes TSW 4 and nothing ever gets fixed. Things just keep stumbling along in a world of mediocrity!

 

Thinking about the TSW3 situation: in a way, I'm glad I pretty much stopped playing because of the major save game bug and didn't get too deeply into any one route's journey, because if you have to start each journey again on each TSW3 version of a route -- when it gets the working save feature across all new and legacy routes -- I'll feel like starting afresh, nothing really lost, and the bonus of dynamic weather.

 

I suppose you could argue we have all been beta testing the save feature this whole time.

 

Well further to my idea...
Train Simulator Classic has an Alpha Branch.
For FSX it is known as the Beta Branch.
For public versions of the software that have test versions.

Even Open Rails allows you to choose between the latest stable version or experimental, as do many other programmes.

Obviously there would need to be a correlation between the two so if/when the two versions merge your saves and progress carry back to the save game, but this needn't be a huge problem.

 

Unfortunately, I think we're going to have to keep harping on about the save game issue until it's fixed. The spreadsheet idea may assuage some people's worries, but not mine, I'm afraid. The " hit team " is a more concrete action and I hope it yields results quickly.

We still don't know:
1. Why it took so long for DTG to spring into action. Is it worth asking again or just treat it like water under the bridge?
2. Why the save game cannot be retained in its present form. I don't buy the reasons given so far. There does not seem to be any technical reason why it can't be reinstated, at least none has been mentioned.

 

Actually now come to think of it, wasn't some sort of report on the save game failure requested a while back, following the introduction of the RH routes which fell particularly prone to it? If so, obviously didn't achieve much so that's why I'm a bit sceptical of the "spreadsheet" to get to the bottom of the problem. Unless the original source code author mickeyed off and didn't leave any notes, surely to god someone, somewhere in the development team has an idea where to start.

I for one am certainly not letting it go. I'm going to be a bit of a Rottweiler on this one, teeth firmly clamped until we get a rapid solution, be it a reversal of the current decision to exclude the old save mechanism, a beta branch of TSW3 with save enabled (which would lead me to immediately pre-order the Standard edition) or the save game gets its makeover and full implementation into TSW3.

 

Save Game sure has its problems, but I wish they wouldn’t have disabled it completely in TSW3.
It works most of the time for the silent majority that doesn’t have a lot of issues with it. I‘d rather have a way to save the game that may not work as intended 10% of the time instead of having no way to save the game at all.
JD replied to one of my earlier comments regarding this, and it seems like TSW3 is already too close to release to revert the removal. What a shame!
Don’t know if we‘ll ever see it again since it’s going to take an eternity to work through all the routes and re-enable the feature one by one. I‘m otherwise really hyped for TSW3, so this situation ruins the mood a little bit. I’ll probably keep most of my existing routes installed in TSW2 for the time being so as to not lose save game functionality.

 

It could be patched back in either before or just after TSW3 launch.

Now you're frightening me!

Are we certain that the save game will still be available when playing routes in TSW2?

 

I would hope so! Indeed, for those calling for the core update to have been free and probably mandatory that would have been a major pitfall.

 

So yesterday I had a derailment on SPG, heading down to Hyndman; luckily I had saved a few miles back. I was able to get past the trouble spot, but eventually had to stop behind a stalled train, because I had loaded a save. Rare to see a stalled train like that on SPG, but whatever.

To me it was much better to have loaded the save and carried on, even if it ultimately didn't work, as opposed to game over, start again if you like.

I am also thinking of how many times I would save just before Rockwood - so easy to slide right through that aspect. Or on LBN I will usually save at Clapham, just in case. Whether the game's fault or my fault, the save function has bailed me out several times, and sometimes, I am able to overcome the errors that ensue (hint: open up the doors of the train stuck at Preston Park).

I don't have any philosophical opposition to paying for TSW3, but this lack of save function is really getting me down. And some people say Cajon is 2.5 to 3 hours? I can't even entertain doing that without a save function, even in its current state. I was going to buy TSW3 on or close to release, but now I just don't know. Without the save function on release or with a known date for the patch, this is becoming less likely. We shall see.

 

Yes, whatever happens, this fiasco is going to leave a sour taste in more than a few mouths.

 

I think there are a couple of major differences with now versus the past: 1) vocal minority are getting much more vocal; as I said in another thread, it's literally the only reason I signed up to these forums, to put pressure on and make sure the key person sees the complaints; and 2) the key person is Matt now, and it seems to me he's not only much more passionate about it but much more serious. Literally after I started copying him into posts (because, let's face it, he's not likely to personally peruse every thread in these forums to notice and probably, usually, relies on the community team to relay what they deem important) he finally acknowledged the issue, not once but in consecutive update streams.

So I certainly have faith. And I say please do use the spreadsheet he's put together. Yes, they will know where to start themselves, but all user data is helpful as it could highlight something they haven't yet encountered in testing, or point them to a specific route and scenario to replicate an issue quicker and start debugging faster.

Does this mean I'm letting the issue go? No, not if we return to silence and don't start seeing results soon. And I would like to think results would include reimplantation of a working save feature in a month or two, even on just a couple of routes, with maybe another route each consecutive week... I don't know how realistic that timeframe is lol But I think at least allow some breathing space (with updates in upcoming streams still appreciated, though, even if they are small ones).

 

TrainSim-Matt I appreciate your update. I also saw the roadmap live stream. I'm one of the new users. I started playing about 8 months ago even though I'm at level 262 at the moment. I'm very excited for TSW3 except for the decision to remove the save from the game. I added a row to your spreadsheet for one of the two problems with the save that I have had that I can remember. I save constantly. In the past two weeks alone I've had a game crash going into Koln at the end of a long s-bahn run. I had a game crash 25000 AP into a run into San Jose on Peninsula corridor. I've also reloaded after an odd derailment on East Coastway. Every time it's loaded perfectly. I've restored saves at least 4 dozen times and I've had two MAYBE three problems. I would be much more frustrated to have lost 90 minutes because of the game crash with no save vs the inconsistent issue I've had or seen with bad save loads. I agree it's not optimal. It certainly should always work flawlessly. But at least with it there as it is there is value to it.

I'm glad your hit squad is on the case and I appreciate the complexity of it because it isn't easily reproduceable. I'll even wager in the same set of steps it may not produce a consistent error. I love the game and I'm sure y'all will fix it. I only wish I wouldn't be penalized even more by having to deal with the frustration of knowing it was there and is now missing. I think TSW3 is a much better buy with it in while it's being fixed.

Keep up the great work.