How Do Dtg Restore Trust With Community?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Aug 15, 2022.

  1. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    It's hilarious that people say DTG should make us pay for upgrades. I bought Train Simulator in 2013 and haven't needed to pay anything to update the game. Back then DTG were much less wealthy as DTG have stated recently.
    'Doing work for free' :D
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Who's saying they would work for free. You do know the employees would get paid regardless. Your logic makes zero sense. You act like they wouldn't get paid which just isn't true.
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They act like they weren't making money off dlc during that time either when they were. These people don't seem to have much logic. DTG would still make money

    It's like when you don't have a defense and you come up with just the most desperate defense possible to try to save a case you already lost like Alex Jones
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
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  4. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I love it when people defend DTG by saying it's a business that needs money to operate. Like yeah... but that goes both ways. As I am a customer that expects quality product for return of my money. But when the product I buy remains broken and sometimes straight out unenjoyable for YEARS, and even if there are fixes then they are locked behind another paywall, then there are some big problems.

    Just like you've said, this is a business, not charity. So don't expect people to give money for poor quality content just out of goodwill either. I mean me, as a customer, shouldn't care about what hardship a given company is having. I just want good service for my money. If this requirement is not met, then I am not going to spend my money. That's it.

    And the same can be said about many people here, I would assume. Sadly with all the quality control issues, and scammy moves like re-releasing the same game every 2 years, TSW content is just not worth it. I mean buying a route, it's full of bugs, you wait years for them to get fixed just for the developers to say "sorry, we're making a new release instead" and what you have originally bought will never get fixed.

    And don't tell me about the preservation updates, as those are merely fixes that should've been in the released products YEARS ago. Not now, years after release... And even now, TSW3 updates will take priority over TSW2 updates, as DTG themselves have said. So you're expected to buy the re-release again just to get your updates for content you have bought years ago. Sorry, but this is ridiculous.

    So as I have said previously, trust has no place here no more, as dramatic as this sounds. Always look at what a given route has to offer in this exact moment and don't expect it to get any better, as apparently it won't. They will just forget about it and re-release the same game 2 years later anyway.
     
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  5. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Two things that may regain my confidence:

    1 Actually listen to what your customers are saying. For example, if you turn save game off and the general consensus is that you have screwed up with this decision, then don’t be afraid to do a U turn ( or admit to us that it is technically impossible).

    2 Give proper time and resource to testing. When a product is released and a large number of people identify clear and obvious faults on day 1, then it has not been tested. I’m not talking about aesthetic errors such as scenery but game breaking issues such as crashing and red lights and doors not closing.
     
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  6. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    And how are you going to pay employees if you aren't making any money.

    Remind m3 never to work for you as one day the comoany will be bankrupt with that financial plan.
     
  7. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Alex Jones? When did I say TSW was fake?

    Thanks for keeping up with the news top guy.
     
  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    By selling quality DLC. Which seems to work fine for TSC. As already pointed out previously in this thread.
     
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  9. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    I love it, keep contadicting yourselves. You all say you know its a business but still insist they should give out stuff for free. Oh the employees will still be paid.

    How when your company gives out product for free. This isn't Rockstar or EA. DTG are not that big of a company so a loss in sales could be a bigger issue than with the big boys.

    And its not like they are charging a forrune either l. I buy baseball football hockey and soccer games every year at $80 a pop. And there are even less changes in those games.

    But you all know all the details of TSW3 before DTG have even spilled all the beans. And since you are all developers you know that very little work went into this.

    Keep living in your fantasy worlds.
     
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  10. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Oh you all have changed mind everything should be free And TSW 3 is a step back.

    They must have worked on it for like 4 whole hours at most.

    LOL You guys are all too funny.

    No wonder the world is falling apart everyone expects everything for free and is entitled.
     
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  11. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    whats with this wanting everything free?

    i read that some people wanted JUST the core update free for existing users, i.e. people who have already lined dtg's pockets with their money, some to the tune of ~£500
    (enabling them to get i think it was a 68% profit last year, and depending on which site you read, are worth £40+ million)

    at least some kind of discount for 'loyal customers' would have been nice, oh, hang on, there is, you can pay ~£50 and as a reward you get to be a beta tester for 4 days,
     
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  12. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="bakedpotatos.jm, post: 521870, member: 22562"
    But you all know all the details of TSW3 before DTG have even spilled all the beans.[/QUOTE]
    Do you think they have failed to announce some key features?
     
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  13. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Do you think they have failed to announce some key features?[/QUOTE]

    Since they have said they were holding some stuff back for surprises on the Roadmap stream and there are 5 streams coming up still.

    Yes I don't believe we have all the info yet
     
  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As opposed to the blinkered fanboy world?
     
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  15. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    The adjustable shaders they brought in when they saw a good job was done by the guy who’s name I forget. They also added the fast load thing recently too. I’d say there’s been a fair few updates to the TSC core in the last 3-4 years.
     
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  16. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I very much doubt you are being sincere, or if you are, you are clearly not able to see what we're trying to explain or refuse to out of a need to defend DTG. I won't lie, I used to be like that, but I changed. After this post I'm going to add you to my block list since there is no point repeating myself, and I suggest others do it to so the thread doesn't get locked by tomorrow or the day after.

    DTG is perfectly capable of making a profit even if TSW3 was a free core upgrade. Dovetail Games is significantly more wealthy now than it was ten years ago, yet Train Simulator released in 2009 and at no point has had a forced paid upgrade. DTG say TS is still profitable despite the game receiving little input so clearly they don't need to release a Train Simulator 2 to not go bankrupt. New versions of Train Simulator release every year (assuming they continue this after TSC) but the upgrade is free. To get the new content I can buy it separately or 're-buy' the game on Steam to get all of the routes included as a bundle, which is something I have done very frequently - I've bought RailWorks, TS2016, TS2019 and onwards solely to ge the routes. I did not need to pay; I chose to. TSW3 is not like that. Whether or not I am interested in the new routes, I need to pay to get future updates to the game - that is the universal reason people are angry at TSW3. If TSW3 was a free upgrade there would not be a single complaint thread.

    Train Simulator has been run on the same business model throughout its life. The base game is developed over time with frequent DLC releases to get DTG money. According to Steam I own 231 individual pieces of DLC - around a third of the entire catalogue - so clearly it works, even if the prices are lower. If DTG are able to make profit for over a decade straight by releasing DLC and not forcing upgrades to be paid, there is absolutely no reason DTG are justified doing it for TSW3.
    I just want the core update too. If I wanted the new routes I'd pay for them separately or buy TSW3 to add to the core game, and myself and many others have done this in Train Simulator many times before. Some even did it for TSW2, buying TSW2020 to get its routes added to TSW2.
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    That's been a switch for ages, but again, hardly a core update to gameplay
     
  18. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Roll on 2nd September so all those that want the game for free can moan about whether they want to buy it again.
     
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  19. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Still an update :) Wasn’t it more than the Steam switch? I seem to remember they changed how the files were packaged which sped up load times across the board considerably.

    Maybe I’m mis-remembering it. It coincided with my use of TSC reducing significantly.
     
  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It was just that, then they put it in the front end, but it doesn't really add anything to how the game plays

    They put everything in AP files which made it harder for people to add mods. I guess it sped up loading times in that the program only had to check file size and revision date on one file rather than 50... Other than that I used to go round unpacking them anyway so the mods and 3rd party assets would work
     
  21. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    If you've paid attention to the forum community since before even the original TSW back to when it was just TS20xx there has never been a high level of "trust" and it's been the same points of friction and feedback for the last however many years. I don't think the DTG relationship with the community is any worse than it's been in the past.
     
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  22. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    This is absolutely right. You can go all the way back to MSTS, in fact.

    The complainers are always the loudest voices, though. Of course this isn't limited to this forum lol.

    I personally think it's near-miraculous that train-simming is still as robust as it is considering the ultra-niche nature of the product, and the generally older playerbase (myself definitely included).

    I'll add that the community also maybe shouldn't be so hostile to marketing/features that could bring in new players:

    "plush collectibles are kids nonsense that don't belong in a simulator"- maybe true, but if a younger player can have something to do in the game while they work up to being able to operate the trains, is that so horrible? I fell in love with trains watching an interchange yard from my aunt's back porch but not everyone has that kind of first-hand experience.

    "I paid for this loco 2 years ago, and now they're giving it away for free- i wasted my money!"- not only forgetting the time they happily spent using that loco in the meantime, but also that lowering the cost of entry to the hobby benefits all players as those new players are more likely to buy DLC in the future if they have a positive initial experience with the game, helping to ensure the hobby lives on.

    Anyway this is already too long, so i'm done lol.
     
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  23. olsbyn

    olsbyn Active Member

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    I remember we had similar discussions when they moved from TSW2020 to TSW2, players demanded the same as now: fix bugs already !
    Then DTG did something smart that fooled most of us: they started a business model called "transparency", and what a smart move, they could now lie to us openly by moving stuff up and down their "roadmap" to make it seem like they worked on an issue which they would just bump down or just remove from the list when they thought we forgot about it.
    The fake "transparency" actually worked for a while, we started trusting them because we thought we could now see what they were working on.
    I just wish that the TSW series could be serious, it looks amazing ( though TS can also look great with the right addons ), you can walk about and explore the world, you can get out of the loco and manually switch junctions..the main point is of course driving the train, but all these things together adds a lot to the immersion.
    But as I said: if the series was just serious. Not to flame TSW to much here, there isn't that much of a difference when it comes to updates in TS either, there are still bugs in Horseshoe curve they haven't gotten around to fixing..and that route was launched in 2011.. so..the difference is that TS is open enough to allow players to make changes to routes or scenarios themselves, so I guess people just got tired of nagging to DTG and just fixed stuff themselves, which again made DTG lazy as they could just sell something and never have to worry about patching it.
    TSW is a different beast, the unreal engine is to complex for the most of the player base, and DTG is seeing pressure from the player base that they are not used to, probably their whole company can't handle being more attentive because fixing bugs only cost money, whilst they for more than ten years have only earned money.

    I will have a really hard time to trust DTG again, although I do love their games I have started to be more selective to what I buy, I don't buy anything unless I can find information in various forums on the state of the DLC, or if someone has a fix for whatever might be wrong with the DLC..it shouldn't be like that, but that is the way it is..

    Fool me once..shame on you, fool me twice..shame on me.
     
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  24. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Posted this in a thread that has since been locked. It certainly doesn't show a company that is struggling!

    From their financial report submitted December 2021 the company grew revenue by £3.3 million (18% increase) in 2021 over 2020 and increased profits by £1.7 million (89% increase) over the same period which covered the majority of the COVID lockdowns.

    They declared a 61.7% gross profit margin which is a pretty decent mark up. So they're obviously not struggling to pay all the developers that a lot of people shout about when someone dares to suggest prices are too high!

    https://find-and-update.company-inf...I4MWFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0
     
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  25. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    The way I see it Im getting 2 new routes for £40.00 Which Id have happily brought separately with a pre order for £22.50 each so Im saving a fiver.
    On top of that I'm also getting an extension to 1 routes of my collection for free.

    Only want one of the routes? Well that'll be an extra fiver over the usual price and the community has been saying consistently that they'd pay a higher price for longer routes which both SKW & Cajon Pass are, so youve got what we've asked for. Plus you'll get the expanded route as an upgrade (the smart ones who dont already own the original SEHS will snap up a bargain from legitimate Steam key resellers at a bargain price)

    Dont want either route? Well carry on enjoying playing TSW2 and you are no worst off.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
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  26. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    The impression that DTG leaves in my eyes is that of a company with great ideas but with very poor implementation.

    They start with good plans which reach the commercial stage where they are hit by the various requirements and limitations.
    When they eventually start, they don't know what to expect and how it's going to turn out. This is because the project TSW feels like it's lacking a long term plan. Each year they come with something new, they venture into a new stage in which they don't know how matters will end up.

    DTG is like a child, very energetic but lacking finesse. Just like with children, you can't be upset with someone that's learning, and it looks like they are. Not the fastest learner but each child is different.

    The first and a big step towards redemption is don't make the same mistakes again. I think they are trying but they need to sit down and make a long term project of what they want to achieve rather than going with the flow year by year. On one side it is their approach and on the other it is lack of competition in this niche that make the game persist in errors and with less quality than the target players would desire.

    I am not yet decided if and what pack to buy. While I like some of the new features, I don't trust them enough to pre-order.
     
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  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Im not living in a fantasy. Nor some blind fanboy world
     
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  28. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    Unless you want any of the new core features DTG have been hyping up, or any new DLC routes, or in some case fixes for bugs in TSW2.
     
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  29. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    So you want core updates but don't want to pay for them? Sounds like you want your cake and to eat it.
     
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  30. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’m looking forward to learning more and trying the SEHS extension and the ICE1, all routes to be fair. I ordered that steam lark again but only as it’s likely to get padded out in a few months so thought I’d get at cheaper price. Maybe it will be more interesting this time
     
  31. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    You said:
     
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  32. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    How are you any worst off by not buying TSW3? You can still play the exact same game in the state it was when you purchased it, that to me is being no worst off. True you arent any better off but theres nothing free in this world, even if you think you are somehow entitled to it.
     
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  33. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    The fact that you can play word games doesn't change the fact that you never mentioned anything beyond the routes in your original post.
     
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  34. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I know what I meant thank you very much and youve still failed to provide an example of anything which has left you worst off. The closest you could get would be the promise of the BR420 release which is no longer coming to TSW2. Everything else promised for TSW2 previously is still on the road map.
     
  35. aliceint#1858

    aliceint#1858 Member

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    so I know that their are people who think that giving tsw3 away for free is a bad business choice. but you know someone who is really successful at business, Steam founder gabe newel. and this honestly comes down to a service problem, by excluding people who refuse to buy upgrades, they are incentivized to pirate or to not buy. and DTG has proven to not understand that, given that they want to charge us for core product updates which where promised back in TSW1. if they want to be given enough trust to continue have people on the right platform to buy the new routes and continue to make buckets of money, they need to get more people to owe TSW3 so that they can sell them the routes, because I doubt they are really ever going to make that much money on the core TSW3 content, just like they did not make that much core money on tsw2 or 1, it is the wall of routes that makes them the money. if they dont get it, and if you people want to say that customers are greedy. then fine. but if they want to make more money, then giving a little can give alot.
     
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  36. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    MSTS was published by Microsoft.
     
  37. karlack26

    karlack26 Well-Known Member

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    MMMM tsw 2 just crashed with SOS after trying to load a save, since i was getting a invisible red failing me, loaded from a check point twice before to see if the red light would fix itself. Just before the last stop on the run.
    3 months they were saying they were working on updates but turns out they were working on a different game.
    Tell me how I should be grateful and I am entitled in thinking I should not have to spend more money on fixing the stuff i already paid for.
     
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  38. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    If DTG wants to earn my trust, they should do the following:
    1. Release the base package for TSW3 for free without any routes so users with routes can take advantage of updates and simplify their long term core maintenance
    2. Offer a discount if you already own SEHS
    3. Fix key core issues like save games before releasing TSW3
    Tell me you care about the community and the people who already have paid into the franchise. There is a reason I called this very Cities XL like in my thread.

    If anyone goes on about the working for free idea, think about this. If they did this all, I would be far more likely to preorder and pay money because I would see it as far more fair. That means more money, especially if we know in 3 months you’ll be able to get this $50 game for $18. Sure, we get free fixes like we deserve, and they get more money through their investment.

    It’s similar to what ETS and ATS can do, by releasing free updates, the community is more enticed to buy DLC. DTG has the income to cover it too, they just choose not to.
     
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  39. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    This is an important thing - it's effectively a freeze on content unless you update, and reliance on a Dovetail promise that any outstanding fixes will be rolled out to TSW2 at all. It also comes the secondary issue of continuity. These aren't games that you can rattle through and complete in a few days - people who are working towards 100-services trophies or aiming to travel 10,000 miles will be reluctant to just reset to zero on a new version just for a slight feature update (and if we're honest, much as they're hyping it as a revolution, it probably could have been a straight update).

    From a business perspective, if they'd made it TSW2.1 and released new features (for free) and a raft of new routes with bundle options as they did with Rush Hour (only well made and bug-free), I may well have bought one or two of them. As it is, I'm in a limbo of still working towards the TSW2 Platinum so, as much as I'd like to try the new SEHS, I'm not at a point where I'm willing to ditch TSW2 and start afresh on TSW3.

    Based on previous form, I'm taking this...
    ...to mean that there's no way your progress from TSW2 will ever be transferred to TSW3. I suspect that will fall by the wayside along with the PS4-PS5 transfer that some people are still patiently waiting for.
     
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  40. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    DTG are greedy because they are charging for the core update (which has taken considerable resource to develop).
    They should give it to me for free!

    Oh, wait, hang on a minute……
     
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  41. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am not sold on TSW3 mainly as I would have liked to see a brand new UK route included for the cost of the UK pack, although £30 isn't really exorbitant. I will end up purchasing it at some point I am sure, probably sooner rather than later.

    However, I think to expect the core update to be free is expecting too much, if the improvements have been in development for as long as they say then that is a lot of development time and wages. I am sure DTG know enough about the fairly small trainsim market to know what is the best course of action for them.

    It has been some time since some drama and intrigue has been whipped up on here so I suppose the relative quiet of the forums of late has been shattered so the announcement has achieved something!

    As for trusting them, well they are no different than many companies, they have ambitions but don't always manage to fulfill them, is that a bad thing I don't know, better to aim high and miss a target probably. I am sure that whenever something doesn't work out it isn't some deliberate deception!
     
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  42. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Better to aim low and avoid disappointment, that way, anything else is a bonus!
     
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  43. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Wise words sir. I never expected TSW3 to be free and as previously said a forced update would take away our TSW2 save game ability. However the actual pricing and packs are another matter. £40 is too much for the 2 all new routes and I have little interest in either extended SEHS or a slightly improved SoS which will doubtless come across with all the bugs and broken scenarios that plague it in TSW2. However a new UK route in the mix might have made that £40 tag more appealing. And if £40 is too much for two routes then £30 is way over the odds for one.
     
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  44. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    It's very simple: only release a route when it's ready. When I bought into TSW2 I bought a lot of DLC with the idea that once I would get a gen 9 console the game would run better. I noticed already early before getting a gen9 console that idea was flawed. Once I owned a gen9 console I stopped playing TSW2 because it fell flat amongst all the other gen9 games. Looking at TSW3 it will still fall flat amongst those titles. I was expecting way much more of TSW3 and looking at what they are about to release it looks again like they are going to release again an unfinished product.
     
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  45. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes I guess that could be a better way to look at it.
     
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  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    If it was a brand new route which really interested me I would probably have paid £30 especially with it incorporating the core update but whilst I don't mind SEHS and always thought it was a shame that HS1 didn't go the full length, I am not in a hurry to purchase it for certain.

    I will be interested to see what happens with SOS, I hope to see the bug fixes and some new DLC announced fairly quickly. If it ends up being abandoned, it will be very disappointing.
     
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  47. I was shocked when they mentioned they are still working on bug fixes in yesterday's stream, does this mean the bugs that come with sos are still going to be present in tsw3?

    If so I'll be claiming a refund.
     
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  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yes. They said on stream last night that many of the fixes will come on TSW3 before TSW2 but after release
     
  49. Oh! I take back what I said about tsw3 then. I can't even play bml anymore because of getting stuck in a traffic jam of trains on most services! What's the point of buying tsw3 if its gonna be the same shite.

    Thanks.
     
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  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I've played BML a few times recently and not had any issues. Maybe I'm just lucky
     
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