"international English" Does Not Exist, And Certainly Isn't Us English

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by eldomtom2, Aug 16, 2022.

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  1. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Which is my point entirely.

    Where are the TSW players complaining to DTG because something is spelt ‘centre’ instead of ‘center’? I’d bet they don’t exist. Virtually no one, least of all non-native English speakers, would likely see a difference.

    So I’d ask again why do it? What possible reason could DTG have for making this change?

    My first point about the clue being in the name was tongue-in-cheek and to be absolutely honest it doesn’t really bother me either way. My annoyance isn’t even about DTG, it’s the fact that for no obvious reason a British company has chosen to cast their own native language aside in favour of one from another country. Can you imagine how the French would react to that, or the Germans, Spanish, Chinese etc? Me neither, because they are proud of their languages and so they should be. There is unfortunately a movement in the UK to denounce anything and everything that made Britain British, to cast aspersions on previous generations for any perceived slight against this twisted modern morality. I see this illogical change as yet another example of it, and it annoys me. That’s my opinion, you don’t have to agree with it of course, but it is what it is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
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  2. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    No, it's quite clearly still in English.

    Cheers
     
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  3. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why they did it but it sounds very logical to choose one language. Not sure if if you get bugs when you use both but the software DTG is using is from US so I suppose using the language that you software uses makes a lot of sense.
     
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  4. Vograx

    Vograx Active Member

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    Makes it a bit easier too, speaking from a practical perspective, if you can tell everyone to set their default language and spell checking stuff to US-English across their software and then everything is standardized to one style rather than having everyone use different ones.
     
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  5. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    Train Sim World is made for a worldwide audience and US English is simply better understood and more widely used in both video games and everyday lives than British English. If the developers stuck to British English then quite a few phrases would be strange or hard to understood for international audiences. US English may not be "International English" officially, but it's better understood by the worldwide audience.

    I'm Hungarian and have learned English from a very young age (9), and over the years I realized that I use both US and British English, depending on the phrase. Just in this post, I'm sure there's an example for both. Yet I agree that US English sounds more mainstream, so it's a better choice for a game. In some cases, using British English phrases would simply seem "posh". Of course, I understand why British players may be upset about DTG's choice here, but as a worldwide game it's understandable, in my opinion.

    Now, if only the add-ons were more worldwide as well... ;)
     
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  6. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    British company, British English - simple!

    Yes, use localisations on the correct routes, but this is just more woke garbage as far as I'm concerned.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
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  7. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention there are far more pressing issues that need to be addressed, like the save game.
     
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  8. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    So are you saying you would struggle with ‘Centre’ instead of ‘Center’, and the notion of the ‘driver’ rather than the ‘engineer’?

    These are different for a reason, and they should remain so.

    Think of it this way. Imagine a country adopted Hungarian for whatever reason, but then started to change it (and I’m talking in a modern not historical context). Not massively, but enough. How would you then feel if Hungarian companies then starting foregoing your language in favour of this other version of it?

    I’m lucky enough to travel the world every time I go to work. There’s barely a corner of this little sphere I’ve not visited, and it’s very very rare to find a country that is not proud of itself, it’s people and it’s history. Then I come home to the UK, where my Great Grandfather fought and ultimately died at Passchendaele, my Grandparents fought hard against Fascism and where we are amongst the most welcoming and diverse countries on this planet, yet there is a movement amongst certain sections of our society to denounce everything we’ve ever done as a country. To strip our education system of any reference to our past except to paint it as something to be ashamed of, to belittle our national achievements and blame us for every ill in the world. Our national broadcaster, which we are forcibly taxed to fund, is at the forefront of this nonsense.

    Frankly, it gets on my wick. I know it’s a big extrapolation to go from a company picking a language in a computer game to this wider picture, but this movement has weaned it’s way into our lives through a lot of small but consistent incremental changes, just like this one. Whenever people protest the retort is always ‘why does it bother you? It’s such a small thing…get a grip!’ That’s why it annoys me. I can’t imagine games companies from any other country doing the same thing where they were using their own language, so why should it be the case here?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
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  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Pedant Alert !!!

    I wish everyone would stop calling it US English and UK English. The correct terms are American English and British English.

    Okay, back to the squabble…
     
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  10. Loco Dave

    Loco Dave Member

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    It should be 'Centre'.
     
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  11. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Many current American terms and spellings are, in fact, originally English. It’s just that since colonisation of America, the language has developed separately and, whereas the English have changed a lot of spellings, the Americans haven’t. For example, scientifically speaking, Aluminum fits better with other names in the periodic table than Aluminium.

    So Center may very well be an original English spelling.

    In any case, I know what it means so it don’t really matter, do it? Now, let’s go play Railroad Sim World 3.
     
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  12. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, tail wagging the dog at the fear that someone may be offended!
     
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  13. I thought America wrote the english language, besides every one talks American!
     
  14. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Team America - World Police!

    Oh and creators of all languages!
     
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  15. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    In a majority of cases, modern American spellings are the result of things like how printing in the US was priced by the letter instead of the word, and so many publications began dropping as many letters as they could, while keeping words vaguely comprehensible but at the lowest price point.

    In other cases you had stuff like Noah Webster's brief from government to create a distinct national identity with his dictionary, which ended up including dropping a lot of things like the French influences on spelling that had been common in British English since 1066
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
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  16. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I think the one certainty in this, like the wretched save game removal, no amount of forum debate or persuasion is going to overcome what seems to be a culture of arrogance at DTG that they know best and will nor reverse a decision in the face of customer criticism.
     
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  17. Nearly every bit of software I've ever installed is English us by default. I think dtg are a bit late to the party.

    For anyone that can't understand English us I'm sure there's online classes for you.

    I'm OK I've already got a us keyboard.
     
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  18. highland beastie

    highland beastie Well-Known Member

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    What about Australian, New Zealand, Indian, Irish and South African English (and others), none of them are complaining its not in their version of English.
     
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  19. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Fair dinkum cobber.
     
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  20. StokesJH

    StokesJH Active Member

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    I like your comment about English being very bad French.
    When it comes to the use of English in Belgium, I agree that many Belgians will speak probably with an American accent. But for official use, for instance by the government or in education, the rule is that British English is used. So the map is correct.
    I do not care whether DTG uses British or American English. There just has to be a consistent use of English, so no mixing of American and British English.
     
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  21. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    My 2 cents. Italian is my first language, although I speak english since I was very young, I wouldn't claim I speak or write it perfectly, I'm sure there will be mistakes on this very comment, but from my experience I believe I am above average when it comes to English compared to my italian peers.

    In school we weren't taught any particular version of English as far as I can remember, from the outside the differences are minimal and they don't interfere with what they actually want to teach you (from my experience mainly grammar and reading comprehension). When there were significant differences we were told "this is how they spell it in the UK, but in the US it's actually like this" same goes for some common phrases that might not be technically grammatically accurate, or abbreviations.

    Having said that from an italian (and similar languages I guess) perspective, US spelling is more straight forward and intuitive in some cases but not for others.

    [IT] Centro -> Center [US]
    [IT] Alluminio -> Aluminium [UK]
    [IT] Colore -> Color [US]

    Anyway, I hope in any good learning environment they will teach you the differences in at least the UK and US english. And I find it almost comical that the simple fact that they used US english offended so many people... I always try to write in UK English as I personally feel like it's the more "correct" variation, but I honestly can't see how anyone would think that it's a big deal.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
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  22. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    US english is a very poor bastardised version of UK english. They cannot even be bothered to spell colour properly, just as one example.
     
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  23. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    You raise a lot of important points, and I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying, however in the grand scheme of things what version of English is appearing in a Train Simulation that the vast majority of the public haven't even heard of is very insignificant.

    Should we be having a debate on these matters? Yes, but this isn't really the place for it. As I said previously, I'm willing to bet the majority of players (who aren't on these forums) won't notice a difference.

    For what it's worth I respect you for having a lot more pride in Britain than I do. Most of my pride in this country stems from us simply not being other countries, if that makes sense. I've experienced racism, sexism homophobia and transphobia directed at my friends my whole life, so I can't exactly get proud of my country in that regard, but I often catch myself thinking "well, at least we're not Russia/The USA/China".
     
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  24. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The majority of exposure that non English speakers have to any form of Englsh is to American TV and music, hence they pick up on that.

    My daughter is fluent in Spanish and having spent the majority of that time in Spain, she speaks "traditional" Spanish which is different to Latin American Spanish.

    However, that still doesn't get away from the fact, why a British company would adopt the US version of English. Now they have to make sure that all spellings have to be correct for that version as opposed to basically the spelling that should be natural to them.

    The other explanation is that whoever is responsible for the text within the game hasn't figured out how to switch their spell checker to British English!
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Actually in line with DTG's diversity aims, I must insist on a localisation into Geordie or old Northumbrian.
     
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  26. Vograx

    Vograx Active Member

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    I will just refer you to my previous comment regarding which of the US and UK version is the most historically accurate: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...-certainly-isnt-us-english.57453/#post-522364

    TL;dr - US / American English is more historically correct than the modern UK / British English. So if anything is bastardized then the good folks of the United Kingdom bastardized their own language to make it less English and more modern/international.
     
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  27. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter which is historically correct. It's the English language which is spoken in England by the English, so if the English decide on a certain spelling, then that is English.

    Anything else is a version of English.
     
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  28. Vograx

    Vograx Active Member

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    Well, doesn't change the fact that the British English you are so adamantly clinging to is a bastardized version of actual English. And the actual English is better preserved in the United States of America than it is in the United Kingdom. Consequently the closest approximation to the original, true English spoken in England is not the bastardized version you decided to start speaking in the 21st century, but the preserved English from across the pond.

    But sure, you want your version of English to be the only true, pure version regardless of how bastardized it actually is.
     
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  29. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    British English is the best. Even with a french accent.



    NOW, back to bugfixing!
     
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  30. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Trust me, when you regularly see the world as it is Britain is actually a pretty special place. If you think those things you’ve listed don’t exist with greater veracity on almost every other country on the planet you’re kidding yourself sadly.

    As I said, Britain is one of the very most diverse and accepting countries there is. The sad thing is many people that live here have absolutely no idea that that is the case because they’re not extensively travelled and therefore don’t see it for themselves, but are relentlessly told by those with a twisted ideological agenda that we’re awful and that we’re the lowest of the low.

    Just to be clear, I couldn’t care less which language a producer uses in a computer game. The thing that winds me up is that someone at DTG has made a conscious decision to change this, and change it the way they have. I still can’t understand why it would even cross their minds. Given the decisions DTG have made in the past on a number of things I’m afraid I don’t believe it’s anything other than another of these woke moves they pull on an all too regular basis.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
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  31. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    I actually much prefer US spelling as it makes more sense, but DTG is a British company and this should dictate their choice.
     
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  32. The strange dialect many of my fellow English man speak today is far from English!
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Factually there IS no "actual english" given it's a mishmash of words taken from all sorts of influences from Latin, French, Germanic languages, even asian languages etc
    English changes every day so "historic english" really doesn't count and never has
    The only people who like to think so are those who don't like change or progress, and England, for it's many many many faults has embraced progress since before the Spanish got stoved in
     
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  34. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    And there we have it. The Americans are the true speakers of the English language along with being the moral compass for the rest of the world!
     
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  35. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely agree. All language constantly changes and it’s obvious that English does the same.

    My problem is that as things stand there is formally English and US English. For some
    unfathomable reason DTG have seemingly chosen to change the language in this game to US English. The rest of it is hot air really.
     
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  36. Vograx

    Vograx Active Member

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    This is true for all languages. It is always evolving and changing, influenced by those who speak it. We can trace this almost as far back as the grunts and harrumphs of cavemen.

    Either way... I just find it amusing how this practical decision by DTG which has absolutely minimal impact on the game has managed to rile up a whole crowd of people making themselves angry over a pointless issue and turning it into a "my language is better than yours" kinda sandbox battle.

    But I'll stop fanning the fires at this point as I realized it's beginning to border on instigating a flamewar in the comments.
     
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  37. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    This.
    What is all this "vowel shift" nonsense?
     
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  38. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Why is this thread still on the PC sub-forum?
     
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  39. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

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    As an English teacher DTG are not make my job any easier
     
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  40. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Because that’s where it started. Where else would it go? It’s a valid thread and an interesting discussion.
     
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  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, but you see the same sort of "arguments" wherever there is change, and people wonder why "social media" is bas for the human race...
    Unfortunately it's far easier for people to disagree than it is to come to the concensus that in the end none of this manure really matters and we'd be much happier if we got of the internet and went and played trains...
     
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  42. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Which neatly makes my point for me. Little things incrementally changing, none ever big enough to be worthy of getting annoyed about (in the eyes of some) but that have added up over time to the sort of disgraceful nonsense that was reported in the UK yesterday.
     
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  43. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    So are you saying that this whole fuss is about two phrases in the game?
     
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  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    That's what I was saying before. There's no such thing as "formal english". English isn't even "an official language" of England, or Britain, or the UK... They don't have one because they've never needed to
    So all this back and forth is more about how people interpret the language they use rather than what's written down and agreed upon as "real English", and in the end so long as people can understand what's being written most people (bar us pedants) won't give two short hoots
     
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  45. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    What nonsense?
     
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  46. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    I repeat for clarity's sake - this is not about "center" vs "centre", this is about the claim that the entire game will be using American English, and especially the implications that might have since British and American rail jargon differs heavily, down to such fundamental levels as what to call the person controlling the train.

    Because there's no forum to discuss topics that affect the game on all platforms, and in its absence the PC forum has taken its role.
     
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  47. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Type the words ‘RAF’ and ‘recruitment’ into Google. I don’t want to post a link for fear of sending this off on another tangent but the story you’re looking for is why the head of recruitment has just resigned.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
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  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Just checked that out... Doesn't seem to be an issue to me. Just another reason for people to be up in arms about something rather than seeing the detail behind the story
     
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  49. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't mean they're going to be changing all words from those used in England to those used in America, as I said earlier I doubt they're changing all "lift" signs to "elevator", so I would assume this relates to non-region specific text or that where a location or element is not region based (ie centre or center on a fictional route)
    They're not saying they're changing "driver" to "engineer" etc
     
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