How Do Dtg Restore Trust With Community?

Yes, because you're a licensed developer. That's not an inherent feature of how TSW does things.

 

Thanks Maik.
I"m as guilty as the rest in wanting quick fixes, but this thread shows that many of our assumptions are based on too little knowledge of the complexities of the code base.

 

It's quite simple really. Test the routes properly and fix the problems before releasing them. If the problems ain't as easy to fix then don't take my money and make me wait months ir even years for a fix. Some of the smaller bugs yea not a problem but with game braking bugs that come with sos! Restore our games to a earlier version and bite the bullet when it comes to people wanting refunds.

 

Indeed - it begs the question whether all platform versions need to be identical in this way. It's not like there's crossplay multiplayer, where every version on every platform has to sync; and while I'm not wanting to get into some kind of platform wars discussion, I also don't really see the logic in every platform being tethered to the lowest common denominator.

 

This is why on console, on XBox at least, it's nice that they tie the licensing to both the console and your account, so anyone whose account logs in on the console belonging to the owner can play the games using their own cloud save and profile, and the primary owner can play them on any other console at any time, doubly nice that both can play at the same time on different consoles using the same copy of the game, which is nice if you have a Series X and a Series S in the house and want to co-op something multiplayer.

 

Do you know who Maik is? Yes, he has access to the code: he works with it, with spectacular results (BR 101, G6, contributions to the ICEs etc etc)

 

I am talking about whether or not he has access to other games' source code.

 

All right, there are two sets of definitional misunderstandings that need to be cleared up:

1) Quality assurance vs beta testing: too many people confuse the roles of these processes. As was pointed out above, QA is there to ensure that when a button is pushed, a sound is heard, but not that it is necessarily the correct sound. Beta testing IS there (in theory) to make sure it is the right sound, that HS1 has the right fencing, and that a locomotive is the correct shade of yellow.

2) Simugraph: the old contrast between simulation physics and arcade physics: Assetto Corsa vs Mario Cart or GTA. The latter makes use of CLUTs or computer look-up tables: basically data matrices (roughly, spreadsheets) which essentially go "for inputs A and B you get result X". Simulation physics, OTOH, are process-based floating-point calculations that, in a driving game, make use of vector physics to duplicate all the forces which in RL would be acting on a car, split second by split second; and with Simugraph, the function and interaction of all the myriad systems in a loco's engineering plant, from pantograph to transformer to taps to traction motors to wheel faces and on and on. A hugely complex undertaking, but one which is capable of realism unmatchable by CLUTs PROVIDED that the modeling and data input are correct to begin with: as with everything in computing, GIGO.

 

I think that DTG needs to re-evalutate what constitutes a "gamebreaking bug".

A gamebreaking bug isn't just a bug that crashes the game to desktop and sends Windows to the "blue screen of death", or something that technically stops me from completing a service. A red light for instance.

A gamebreaking bug in my opinion is a bug that stops me from having fun and enjoy the game, and instead makes me want to stop playing and go do something else.

I pretty much still haven't played Spirit of Steam yet, even though I really want to. But every time I try, I have to rip my headphones off after five minutes due to the bug with the saftey-valve constantly blowing and drowning out all other sounds, giving me a headache. Of course I can mute all sounds and complete the service, but I wouldn't enjoy it. And that defeats the purpose of playing the game in the first place.

And there are just too many of these kind of bugs around, some which are going on two years now, and still with no fix in sight.

 

Do you have programming experience in this field?

 

That unfortunately has just defined a class which is not only gigantic, but different for every player. There is no way DTG could assign priority to fixing "game-breaking bugs" so defined, because it means in effect just about every bug.

"Game breaking" or "Class A" bugs necessarily are those which either cause a software crash, or which render a service un-completable: persistent red lights, random derailments and the like. Sorry about the safety cocks (headlight brightness, wrong shade of purple), but none of those prevent a service being driven.

 

Yes, I totally agree with you. It quickly becomes both huge and very subjective.

And just to be clear, I'm not talking about the "this train has the wrong sound" or "station X doesn't look like that in reality" kind of bugs. They are often "working as intended", and it's up to every player do decide if it's good enough for him or her to keep using them.

I am talking about things that gotten broken in updates, or things that slipped through the cracks in testing. Like the saftey-valve or the derailing witch is clearly not "working as intended". I realise that it is still an awful lot of bugs, but I still think the scope of what constitutes a "gamebreaking bug" is too narrow today.

But this all might be because I'm really fed up with having to wait 12 to 18 months, and sometimes even longer, for broken things to get fixed. Things that worked well before they got "updated". And what I'm taking away from two years worth of Roadmap streams is unfortunately mostly the talk about prioritizing "gamebreaking bugs" and "x-box sound problems". That and the constant waiting ...

 

IMO updates should be free. You should go and look at Steam with their hundreds if not thousands of Indie developers, do they charge for updates? Look at the game 'No Man's Sky' The game was virtually dead after release but he has rebuilt the game and is supposed to be now a terrific game and still receives updates, huge updates as well and I haven't paid for one, just had another one. They are smaller than DTG. Even the 'evil' EA do not charge for updates and they come more regularly than DTG ones.

Numerous other companies follow the same practice. The question should be asked is 'Why is now DTG charging for updates?'

perhaps they have the same Lawyer? lol.

Some people are saying DTG should not have brought out TSW3 until UE5 was worth upgrading to, maybe next year sometime and then just solely concentrate on TSW2 like they told us they were.

 

You mean apart from the yearly database updates for Fifa/Maden and a couple of new (bugged) features which they sell as "new" game for £50+?

 

I wish you would take on board what people are saying with an open mind and stop refuting anything said to you because it doesn't agree with your own priors. It is called confirmation bias, look it up.

 

Comparing EA to DTG, I don't think TS/TSW would end up being better/worse if it was being owned by EA. Think about it, DTG has been rebranding Train Simulator (and now TSW) every year, EA has been rebranding Fifa every year too.
TSW lacks in-game features such as editor or multiplayer, I believe this is the similiar case with FIFA too.
Both are very pricey and don't offer that much.

 

Beat me to it. DTG are now seemingly doing the same thing, I wonder if DTG are being influenced by EA's practices? They certainly are with Bethesda, even ripped off their 'Creation Club'.

 

Do you guys know who Paul Jackson is? He's the guy who established the PEGI rating system. He also established and managed the British division of EA. And he's also the co-founder of Dovetail Games.

 

I knew that Paul Jackson worked at EA but I didn't know he did the PEGI system for GB. Strange how FIFA has an age 3 rating when it has Gambling in with loot boxes or EA speak 'surprise packages'. You'll also find that Sam worked for the dark side as well.

 

It is amazing that these apparently "evil" developers like EA make some of the most popular games!

Commercial entity in trying to make a profit and attract new customers shocker!

 

I personally don't have any issues with EA games. Several of those you listed I enjoyed. I can't comment on FIFA, which some are referencing, as football isn't my thing... I just liked to point out that, if there are similarities in business practices (which I can't comment on either; I only know their games, not their business) it could be because of the past connections to EA in the management hierarchy. I got the impression at least some people didn't realise this little fact.

 

Most of the game devs I know, a bucketload of whom now have their own indie studios, used to work for Ubisoft. which makes sense when you consider I can see Reflections' HQ from my flat. It's kind of a given that a not insignificant number of people in the industry will have worked for at least some time at a studio attached to one of the big publishers.

 

You had me bowing to you at Dead Space. Still one of my favorite games of all time.

 

I'd also note several of those games you listed working on as being widely considered the best instalments in their respective franchises before EA ruined them, usually with aggressive microtransactions or horrible DRM policies which punished paying customers with poor experiences, in ways pirates got to ignore.

I still have Simcity 4 installed alongside Cities:Skylines for my city building fix.

 

Sam worked there too but I did not ever see him trying to tell me that things that are obviously wrong or bugged are perfectly fine, or trying to hide bugs in preview streams. Many times he does not give me the answer I want to hear, but he gives honest answers and at least he does not act as if we were idiots.

Maybe I'm old school, but for me its worth something.

 

Lack of competition in their sports games is one factor. EA can do the bare minimum and they will still sadly since there are no alternatives

But EA do publish good games. When they let their devs actually publish good games that is. Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order, Star Wars Squadrons and A Way Out are some good examples of pretty good games published by EA. Need For Speed Heat had a great story but the ending was melodramatic and just ended abruptly

 

There good in that aspect I guess. I can see the benefits of games consoles for pure gaming. I've owned a few over the years, my preference is still a pc though. I can do a lot more than just game with it.

 

Having an open mind does not mean blindly accepting whatever someone says.

 

All depends on the game. EA developed their loot box system through FIFA and it was the way it entices kids into gambling as 'Evil', if the game was aimed at over 18 then fair enough but it is aimed at 3 and above. They ain't the only company to do this of course but they set the trend. It has also spawned an illegal industry getting the 'coins' needed.

But yes they do make some good games, I actually enjoy FIFA but not the 'fut' part where the loot boxes lie and then I buy the game when it gets discounted to boot. And while I do acknowledge they produce some good games they also have a reputation for 'shovelware'.

I remember I had some fun in a few of those games. You would of thought they would concentrate on the game and not the loot box which is a shame.

Remember Sam works for DTG, they pay his wages. He can only go so far.

 

No offence, but for a lot of players, accurate and realistic sounds ARE a big deal. So you can see why people are quick to criticise stuff for when it doesn't sound right.

I personally can't play TSW if there's other audio in the background, as I may as well be playing the game on mute, or playing a free online game with music placed over it.

 

Going forward, I would like some confirmation from DTG that they are going to 'flesh out' routes with locomotive DLC as this is my biggest concern for the future vision of the game. They did a very good job of this in the early days of TSW. I know that the financial return on loco DLCs is not as good but routes can be rejuvenated with new locos and stock thereby allowing for interesting substitutions. Combined with an enhanced scenario planner it would go a long way to entice those in TS Classic to try TSW.

 

Absolutely. The person you quoted seems to have a strange expectation from train sims, finds most routes boring, doesn’t want A to B branch lines and doesn’t care whether the sound is good or not. Maybe they should decide if this is actually the hobby for them!

Otherwise without decent sounds including features like reverb and bridge clatter we might as well go back to playing Simudrive. It’s part of what adds to the suspension of disbelief.

 

So what I said in my last sentence then...?

Yes it is, but I want MORE than just A2B green light runs or A2B branch runs. There are so few adverse signals in the game it's not realistic and basically you're just following the speed boards. I have commuted into London for years from North Kent and at least half the time you're slowing down somewhere for something.
And don't get me started on freight
As in, for me it's about variation and gameplay rather than "where can we greenlight to today folks?"
Give me a network of routes that goes places and something other than a green light and I'm happy

 

agree with everything here

 

That I can definitely concur with.
Even the sims of old like Simudrive, Train Driver 3 and the SIAM driving games allowed you to adjust difficulty level. The possibility of a signal failure, being stopped and cautioned for a sheep on the line, random temporary speed restrictions. You could also get a traction unit not performing to full capacity with several choices between ex-Works and run down condition. In TD3 if you thrashed locos continually into the yellow zone on the ammeter eventually they would lose efficiency and possibly even fail. You then had to limp to the next station and request a fresh engine.

Therein lies the quintessential problem with modern train sims, starting with MSTS - everything is just too scripted and predetermined, no randomisation and TSW - any version - is no exception. I guess Run 8 offers more in that respect, but then it is almost too freelance with no base timetable or service pattern.

 

As an example, between my last comment and this I have driven a class 66 on GWE from Reading to Acton on a "Bristol inbound" service. I pulled out of Reading, set her at notch 4 and did nothing else til I had to slow to pull into Acton yard. Not a single adverse signal, the only warning I got was the false one at the double signal past Hayes
I stopped with 2 yards to spare in Acton yard and that was it. Gold medal

I know people want all the lines and everything to be brilliant and right. I agree, we want as much diversity in the game as possible, but for pete's sake I want more to do than 30 seconds at the beginning of a run and 1 minute at the end

 

This is the issue I have with BML, for instance. For the most part, a very well modeled route. I ran a service from Victoria to Gatwick. There was simply nothing to do other than accelerate at the beginning and slow down at the end.

Of course, there was the usual odd behavior of the passengers. Nobody got off at Gatwick, even though planes were operating overhead. Maybe they were all being diverted to Heathrow.

And I had asked for clouds and light rain. I got an absolute downpour, which actually affected visibility, so that was interesting.

 

This is my hot take on DTG and the TSW franchise:

They should not have used the Unreal Engine, period. In doing so, they've closed off the game and made things extremely tedious (seemingly) when it comes to bug fixes along with making it near impossible for the community to add their own content be that vehicles/carriages/assets or routes etc. I get it in that the Unreal Engine IS great but surely there's been a lack of foresight?

Kuju got it right in that they made a game that would cater for pretty much everyone. In this case, despite community demands, TSW has gone backwards because they chose a fancy shiny new game engine rather than make something more from the ground up. As a result, we're struck 3 generations into a game with a lot less functionality than TS, bugs, lack of promised features and a game that is shiny on the surface but riddled with problems. Sure being able to walk about and cab functionality is GREAT but we've lost a lot to get to this point, have we not?

I don't blame the devs for this, but i do blame management and whoever pushed to go down this route because its caused so many headaches for the franchise.

Ultimately i don't want to buy TSW3 because I don't feel like I'm getting my moneys worth either due to routes feeling a little uncanny/dead due to lack of AI content/liveliness/flow/character or feeling a little on the short side. There's also the fact that TSW3 is essentially TSW2 with some updates to graphical features etc. They could have called this an update and i'd agree but to charge for it is bonkers, feels really off that you HAVE to buy TSW3 to access future DLC for what is essentially the same game. Sorry but in my honest opinion, that's a gate-keeping cash grab

Plus lets not forget things like multiplayer and VR which was promised way back but 3-4 years down the line, we're no closer to having either seemingly.

Hopefully they sort themselves out but someone in DTG is butchering this franchise.

 

I put my money on investor's that would rather see a healthy return on thier investment rather than customer satisfaction.

 

Welcome to capitalism

Even if something got more dislikes than likes, money matters in the end

 

I don't recall DTG ever having promised either multiplayer or VR.

 

They did say multiplayer will come to tsw in it's early days. Just like they said the editor but we all know what happened to that

 

Those two usually go together in the long run.

 

I can assure you that in the early days either during TSW beta testing or in the runup to them dropping a lot of confirmed info on the first TSW was that VR and multiplayer was planned and in the works in multiple streams.

 

For some reason both light rain and heavy snow disappeared from TSW2. It’s monsoon or nothing for rain and in the routes where it gets cold enough for snow, it is a few snowflakes even on maximum setting. I don’t believe it’s even possible to get snow in GWE as all the temperatures given for each month are above zero. Maybe some things will be improved for TSW3.

 

Yep, back when they were developing a PC only title and Matt's mouth ran away with him (frequently) we had all sorts of pie in the sky nonsense bandied about. Then someone (probably Sam) got hold of a few people and basically told them to shut up and stop being silly
Unfortunately many in the community are unable to forget that there have been five years and a lot of things going on between when they said "Hey Multiplayer seems like a good idea, let's do that!" and of course bring it up at every... darn... opportunity... like a broken record

Maybe the people who need to smell the roses are the people who keep banging on about something that was very unlikely in the first place and talked about BEFORE consoles or console parity was a thing?

 

I get where you are coming from, but there was nothing stopping them from being upfront about maybe getting carried away about talking about unconfirmed features from back in the past.

 

I saw other organisations make people apologise for things said years ago. Cancel culture or something . Focus on today rather than 4 hrs ago

 

Huh?