Ai Train Pack For Tsw?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by 799343537, Aug 21, 2022.

  1. 799343537

    799343537 New Member

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    Is it possible to release ai train packs. Just like the ai traffic for msfs - only the exterior of the trains need to be modelled. Not too much details inside these trains and the player can't get inside the trains. In this way stations like Munich or St. Pancras don't look too empty. Also in the future more detailed features can be developed based on these external modelling.
    I would buy the ai pack immediately if could be launched. It would greatly enhance the driving experience.
     
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  2. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Realistically speaking, it would be a no. First being wasted dev time and resources. Why build a train and sell it if the interior is only partially modeled and then have to pay again to get a fully modeled train or even have to wait for a future update to have it fully modeled? Since tsw describes itself as an authentic rail simulator and you can interact, walk around and stuff, I'm not for ai train packs that are incomplete and that you can't do anything with them. Another being that you can't drive it cuz then it isn't value for money. That's just me. I don't want to pay money for trains that can't be entered/played and are only partially modeled and then have to possibly pay again to get the full version.
     
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  3. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    I on the other hand would be all for something like this. It would potentially cause DTG or whoever is behind the route to be lazy, however if it means that the track/stations are more populated then I'm all for it.

    However, I would only accept it on the basis that those trains wouldn't make sense for us to run, i.e they're only found at certain stations, or run alongside us for a brief moment before going through a portal. On the TSC version of BML they have AI services around Clapham Junction like this, and for me at least made the route feel a little more alive.
     
  4. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    No thanks.., either the right way or not at all.

    They cant even manage to have 1 loco version over all the routes, when upgrading a cl.377 in l2b, the east coast version still has the old version.

    Im not suggesting DTG to do a ton of afterwork on 5 routes, but maybe just maybe, it would be worth to spend time in how to develop your content in a way the rolling stock fix can be made at the core vehicle, which adapt the changes to all routes.

    Tsw has already enough "halfhearted short cuts", no need to introduce another one.
     
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  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think I'd prefer for them to pick "hub stations" and dev for that region for a year or so, that way you build up the stock you need to them populate other stations. They've done similarly with Germany so why not do the same in the UK or US where there are also trains which "get everywhere" and if they do the dev right they would only need to reskin the base unit rather than make a whole new loco

    Start with somewhere like South Wales where you get everything including HST, 80x, 150, 158, 170, 231, 387, 175, 769, 66, 60, 37...
    From these you can spin off the other sprinter classes, 171, FLIRTS (from the 231), the 319 from the 769 etc etc
    It would give a good base to expand basically nationwide in the UK with only "specific requirements" for specific routes (such as the pendo, class 91 etc)

    Think of it this way, if they did the valley lines with the 150 and 158 adding in the HST from GWE as a shortset, and the 66 for freight that's one pack
    Then do Severn tunnel to Swansea as a mainline, add in the 800 and 60 (along with the previous pack) and the 166 for some of the locals and you're a long way to getting a lot of "AI trains" anyway
    Then do Severn Tunnel Junction to Taunton, add in the Bristol area and you're filling things out

    Or, start up north with Leeds or Lime Street.
    Fill out the regions and get the sprinters and turbostars done, then it helps with a lot of the remainder of the AI around the country
     
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  6. robert_LH

    robert_LH Member

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    I‘m all for it!

    Nothing worse than a dead track with nothing else going on.
     
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  7. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I'd normally say no. BUT: With Dresden-Chemnitz we got for the first time (at least for germany) some AI stock which was unusable: The Reko-Coaches from the narrow gauge line.
    20220113235833_1.jpg

    I loved (and still love) that they made the extra round to model these coaches. They didn't have to, but they did. And I love driving past them. Of course it would be nice to drive them as well, but I am absoloutely fine that I cannot. And in the same way, i'd be totally okay with something like the TSC "European locos and asset pack", which has been used to much in so many scenarios and routes. Do I want to drive past a populated yard with stock that i cannot drive or rather an empty yard? For me personally, the first floats my boat. I'd be happy to pay something around 20-30 Euros for such a pack if it means that we have AI stock all over the place with all the coaches and freight waggons that TSW desperately needs!
     
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  8. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    I like the basic idea, but how real should the sounds be on those a.i locos, how much detail in pictograms etc.., thats why i think eather the entire modeled train / loco with one time the work, or making it not at all.
     
  9. Ai trains to layer route A that passes route B where dtg have no intention of making route B anytime soon or making route B at all is a good idea.
     
  10. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    There are actually valid reasons for doing this.

    - You are never going to have a full fleet of detailed locomotives for TSW for the next decade. It will build up over time... but certainly not all of them.

    - Having AI traffic in is a good placeholder for empty timetables... which is vital to the simulator experience.

    - AI traffic will significantly reduce performance requirements, as you don't need highly detailed interiors or fully fledged exteriors. Also makes it more accessible for older hardware.
     
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  11. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    No, as soon as they are able to move, they consume the same performance as any other train. And those AI trains are eating up memory that is then missing for other things like dense scenery. Also people would expect at least to be able to use these trains as a passenger, so they still need interior too. Not to speak about animations and audio. You guys need to think a bit deeper. AI packs are nothing a developer will spend its time into when in the same time a complete train could be made. The amount of work that would go in such a AI train is 80% of a drivable train.
     
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  12. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    No Maik. Non-boardable (You can put boundaries on a train to prevent players boarding), Non-Driveable, purely visual AI. Almost on the same level as CSLs that you would find on Flight Simulator. Everything else about sound and (basic) animations would still require some work. But I don't think thats inconceivable (especially since we know that the dispatcher barely uses a fraction of the physics calculations for a train to save on performance). At that point, a fully detailed and setup train just becomes more polygons on the screen.

    Dovetail could have a really small team producing these asynchronously to their main team... and really help fill out timetables. The way I see it, it's 2022 and we've had 2 new UK DLCs and 1 upcoming extension = 3 new trains. 2021 = 8 new trains. At some point, you'll have to face facts and realise that the idea of all DLCs having a fully fledged Timetable for the next 5 years is untenable. It only works when DTG have
    a) A really strong long-term consistency e.g. German content/Dostos
    b) Localized routes that only really see 1-2 pieces of rolling stock e.g. London-Brighton
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
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  13. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    I think you do not understand how this stuff works. It is the same discussion as was done for TSC over all the years. To make such a train, the amount of work is not really less. You need full 3d art to be done (Outside, what is the heaviest and most expensive part), it needs goo texturing too what would end up in the same as every other train uses. To being able to move they need skeletons. They need audio. They need animations to be controlled. Door managers. Passenger setup for AI passengers to being able to board the train (when it is a passenger train). So you need also, at leas a simplified interior and a cab. Making that, needs plenty of time. An so build, non driveable AI train uses exact the same amount of performance and memory as a AI driven driveable train. I could go into very deep detail, but why, you can believe me or not (most users here do not, that's ok). Give a developer that needs to make money the decision to make a AI pack of trains or driveable trains for DLC packs or even routes, they will decide to make driveable trains. The only two devs that were making bigger AI packs for Germany for TSC were doing that in their spare time. Such a pack is barely economical to do. Believe me, or not, it's on your's.
     
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  14. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Tsw needs the spirit of immersing players, leaving players with a "wow" when an a.i train passes the station and you are there as a train spotter.
    I stoped spirit of steam because the lack of a.i sounds. So to say it straight, a halfhearted 3d model with incorrect sounds will not convince me to spend time with, even if a.i only.

    In this case i can get the better experience by leaving the appartment.
     
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  15. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    There is at least one other example - the hideous low-detail camper coaches on the West Somerset Railway that are right next to the running line.
     
  16. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Those are static, and is way simpler to create than moving stock as part of an a.i train.
     
  17. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    We've already got a undriveable AI only train in the BR187.
     
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  18. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    It is very different to AI aircraft in a flight sim. In a flight sim, you can usually ignore the AI traffic and drive through it if you want (drive=taxi/takeoff). Or you can try and be realistic and wait for it, but either way it sounds a lot less complicated than doing it in a train sim. AI traffic in TSW would need to be incorporated into the timetable.

    edit: I mean additional AI traffic would need adding to the timetable obviously. The only way that I could see it working was if DTG had left gaps in the timetable for an additional layer, and if either they then didn't produce the DLC that would have added that layer, or if you could buy an AI pack to replace that layer if you didn't plan on buying the DLC. I doubt that there would be much benefit to DTG in doing this but that's the only workable approach that I can think of for it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
  19. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    No you're misunderstanding me

    - I'm a 3D artist with some experience doing vehicle modelling myself (having done so for flight sims). It's not a perfect analogy, but I can imagine it's the same level of background development for a detailed vehicle that I had to go through. So no... I'm not disputing your knowledge.

    - What I am critiquing here is the requirement for "full detailed trains everywhere or not at all". I'm not describing have an AI train pack under the current requirements TSW or even past TSC precedent. Yes there are basic animations and sound required. But do you need AI traffic with opening doors and interiors if just to "fill out the scene, and provide some more traffic than what is present on the timetable." No. You would be here a millennia doing that. The comparison I'm making here is that DTG should invest in models comparable to that of CSLs on something like Vatsim

    --> I would struggle to have anyone tell me that having a CSL equivalent for train-sim would NOT be a benefit to performance. I've ripped model and texture sheets from TSW before (for livery painting before the editor). Having CSLs could reduce texture sheets to just 1, and at half drawn polygons (A CSL would just have blacked out windows or ones giving the illusion of depth.) The draw calls may be the same, the dispatcher performance would be the same, animation penalties will be the same, but what is drawn on screen and vram would certainly be lighter in both TSW and TSC.

    - There is an entire library of models DTG have made from the past decade that could be used as a low-cost alternative. Take Bakerloo and Cathcut circle. The most common complaint was lack of traffic on those routes. But DTG had models (albeit I'll give you, not optimized for Unreal) for alot of that rolling stock. Those could have been re-uv'd for Unreal and adapted for those routes. Instead now those routes will be perpetually stuck as they are.
     
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  20. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    tldr : Yes setuping up trains is long. I just think it can be done cheaper (both cost, setup and performance)
     
  21. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    You are free to start creating content for tsw, more devs are welcome ;). I you have the idea of making it cheaper (better), do it.
     
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  22. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I didn't think that through enough. Thanks for clearing that up! :)
     
  23. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Dude... you don't know how much I would love to. But those tools are not freely accessible... so in that sense... I'm not really free to start creating content :D. I even started mocking up the 1996 stock (unfinished as we progressively found out the tools were not coming).

    Besides the point... I'm not the one currently able to make content. Dovetail is. And most of the experiences we've had so far will never reach their full potential as vibrant routes, with full ai traffic. Most of that is down to "If it's not fully detailed... we won't do it". That approach is ok... but it means we'll be stuck here with people complaining about it... well... forever really. I don't think it was the best design choice, and I sympathize with the OP.

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Delta_Who
    partners@dovetailgames.com is the e-mail you can write to if you think you can be a 3rd party. In case it works, we're all happy to see your 1996 stock DLC anytime soon :)
     
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  25. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I'm very well aware of the email. But much appreciated :D
     
  26. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    ... and have you tried to contact DTG?
     
  27. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Yes?
     
  28. Did you email them from a company email?
     
  29. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    No. Although should be irrelevant. If I had a wild guess, the editor might need to be licensed out. Groups with TSC acumen behind them would be more likely to receive access. (I've seen a few artists and programmers on the TS Community discord also denied.)
     
  30. I would imagine dtg get 1000s of emails from Joe blogs wanting to become a developer. It could be they don't read any of them or it could be they don't take any seriously because they are from personal email addresses with no company name attached to them. Like a creative director said previously there's nothing to stop a group of modders creating their own studio and becoming 3rd party developers. Or a one man outfit.

    Personally if I was checking these emails I would take a email from a registered company a lot more seriously than one from Joe blogs.
     
  31. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. But then again, their entre company and eco-system is made up of Joe Blogs and tinkerers who aspired to contribute and make train sim something greater. So it's more of a loss for them. Meanwhile I'm happy to continue creating content for flight-sims. https://www.origamistudios.co.uk/

    Anyway... I think we've wildly derailed this conversation enough as it is. Perhaps lets just move on. Maik Goltz even if I'm arguing with you, I still heavily respect your work... and can't wait to see what you put out in future!
     
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  32. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    We have a basic moving carriages on the suspension railway on RRO and I'd like to see more things like this included in routes where appropriate. But there's no way on earth Of ever pay money for an AI pack.
     
  33. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I would like some low poly freight cars to fill out US freight yards if possible, pretty much every yard in TSW2 looks like a PSR shutdown yard. Though I wouldn't want to pay for them in a pack.

    Wait.....
     
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