Frequent Stutters While Driving

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Iunoi, Aug 18, 2022.

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  1. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my concern about the save game...
     
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  2. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    This. Without even a semi-functioning save (Just flag it as "Alpha" in the menu and include the TSW2 save?) the game's basically unusable to me, and I expect a great number of people.
     
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  3. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I expect many new customers being shocked about the state of the game in some way (like no Seasons for the scenario Creator or the sound issues or the stuttering)
     
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  4. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    And the worst part is that they seem to be who this is aimed at, because if they were wanting to wow existing players, there's a list of expectations of the game that they could have ticked off before announcing this, and fewer existing TSW2 players would have balked at the asking price for "TSW3"
     
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  5. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    I still think with save, the smarter move would have been to leave it in, but add telemetry to it. Give the player a menu option next to save game to "report", where it uploads a copy of the broken save to DTG (with the system rejecting duplicate uploads from the same player), which they could then feasibly build a tool to analyse, which runs the simulation from the start of the service and figures out where this save deviates from it and which part of the loading went wrong. Rather than relying upon written player reports.

    This could help cut down on the time taken to recreate problems, hopefully meaning a quicker resolution to the overarching issues.
     
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  6. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    IIRC Matt specifically said there wasn't insufficient info in the duff saves for them to fully reproduce the issue. That why they wanted detailed info from the players so they could try and reproduce the situation with all their diagnostics switched on. This would apparently allow them to see the additional data that wasn't being saved such all the existing trains and their signalling priority etc.
     
  7. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well,, certainly any scenario or timetable run that takes more than 30-60 mins in my case.

    I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with Cajon Pass, which would be about 90% of the reason I'm purchasing TSW3. DTG have still not suggested what players are supposed to do when playing the longer routes. New players will be astonished when they have to choose between eating, sleeping and household chores OR finishing a scenario .

    To finally introduce realistically longer routes and simultaneously remove the save game boggles the mind. It's a classic case of right-hand, left-hand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
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  8. Ive been sitting at this red signal for 3 days now. Eating and sleeping never crossed my mind.
     
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  9. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    It still baffles me that a save game that worked for some people was removed, what was the harm for leaving it in so some could still use it rather than taking it out so pissing everybody off.

    And if DTG are that desperate for info Princess Entrapta's suggestion to have a 'report' option would of given them all the info they needed.
     
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  10. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    Since Matt set up the spreadsheet – and I was very grateful to see more concrete signs of the issue being taken seriously – I have only logged one instance of the show-stopping red light bug when resuming a save game. Ironically, after kicking up a fuss to get the save bug's attention, and never having a successful save game when I first started playing TSW2, I'm now saving successfully... But all these times that I'm saving and finishing a route successfully, I'm saving at a station, boarding passengers, and usually getting off the train. Yes, that was a "workaround" theory; even if it's a total coincidence (I could encounter the bug next time I do it), I'm saving okay for the moment. So I would have had more incentive to buy TSW3 had they kept save in there, albeit with a caveat and bug reporting function built in.

    I'm starting to think the red light bug occurs more frequently if saving when the train is in motion... It's hard to say for sure. I know Matt does have ideas what to look at in the core game, so I just hope they fix and start reinstating it ASAP. If it has the priority it deserves, I don't see why we wouldn't see it being reinstated in a month or two at the most, if that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
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  11. jetgriff

    jetgriff Well-Known Member

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    '
    I have a HP 27 All in One. I know this restricts me against a gaming tower, but I like them and the game to me plays well
    pc.jpg
     
  12. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Oof, that explains it only performing about 20% as well as my entry-level cheapo gaming setup.
    I think my phone has higher specs than that. I guess it was a decent budget option for an office system but I'd sure recommend something better when it comes to TSW3 because the new lighting might be a bit too taxing.
    upload_2022-8-27_1-50-8.png

    You can probably get a cheap second hand laptop from 2017 with something like an RX 560-580 for around £350 that should triple your performance over that.
    upload_2022-8-27_1-54-37.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
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  13. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    You comment has a very true point. Couldnt say it any better.
     
  14. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    It's gone from an intentional or unintentional leak which I personally feel led to a really great marketing campaign . We will never know if jd should have said but it's been great

    to

    It now feeling like Gary at the pub is showing you the latest movie he's downloaded on his phone and is showing you in the pub with a dying battery and FACT looking over his shoulder
     
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  15. jetgriff

    jetgriff Well-Known Member

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    BUT... do you want p poor driving and superb graphics? To me a good driving experience, stopping at stations correct, running in speeds, sticking to speed restrictions etc is worth more than visuals. I don't care if my visuals are a bit poor as long as I get the driving experience. (play at HD)
     
  16. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Sub 20 FPS and poor graphics. Also 45-60 ms latency (should be under 20-16) is absolutely insane!!. You are loosing any sense of speed and movement in that stuttering, I don't know how you can play like these and you are missing almost everything TSW2 has to offer.
     
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  17. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Some people are just totally immune to low FPS and stuttering. Below 20 FPS wasn't even acceptable in the days of Atari and the first Nintendo and is usually considered unplayable by 99.99% of gamers and especially people who play simulations (since the real word isn't stuttering like hell)
    But if he is happy with the results, then I don't have an issue with it. But he should know that hes probably the only person being able to enjoy TSW this way so it's really no argument to be made

    That's also why I trust nobody telling me he runs TSW2 "without stuttering or FPS drops"
    Some people have higher tolerance then others
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
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  18. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Agree, no way tou can run the game without any stutter or FPS drops at the moment. While many smaller low traffic routes might run quite good (ECW for example) you will not have the same experience on the likes of DRA or London Brighton sue to size, complexity and large number of services.
     
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  19. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Oh, believe me,I know about prioritising the experience over visuals.
    On the 2017 RX 560 laptops which I mentioned can be picked up dirt cheap, I managed to get Cyberpunk 2077 running for someone at 60fps through setting all the visuals to low and modding in FSR 2.0 and it was worth it for the experience being smoothly able to be enjoyed.
     
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  20. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    It's also possible that someone can be playing on a super low quality monitor where it's harder to notice, due to the extremely high amount of ghosting effectively blurring frames together like a form of motion blur, so the same flickering that gives some of us watching the same footage on our screens a headache looks like a blurry, but not flickery, outcome on theirs.
     
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  21. jetgriff

    jetgriff Well-Known Member

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    Well I got no choice, or I should say I have a choice of not playing the game at all or play it at the at the speeds I have, I choose to make the most of what I have until I win the lottery and can afford better. Plus I am 78 and my vision is not the best, I make the most of what I got.
     
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  22. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow, 78. Okay yeah, being able to see the screen at all at that age is pretty respectable, so fair enough.

    I expect you could slap a black and white filter over the game and play SoS on a projector and at that framerate it'd look pretty much just like newsreels from your childhood. (Something I wish the Liverpool-Crewe trailer had leaned more into, since it was a neat concept)
     
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  23. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    jetgriff

    If you want to upgrade maybe a Xbox Series S would be an option. You should get a new one for around $250 or a used one for $200.
    Then all you need is a Monitor with a HDMI Socket and a Keyboard and Mouse. You probably have this already. Setting up an Xbox is as easy as starting a windows pc. You would then be able to play in Full HD at 60 FPS with high details.

    You dont need to use the Controller to play TSW2 on Xbox, you can use the Mouse and Keyboard.
    Downside would be you would need to purchase TSW2 and the DLC again.

    Another option would be to use a Game Streaming Service like "Gforce Now". You would need to make sure they offer TSW2 or TSW3.
    Will probably be $5 to $10 per month and you could play this way with much better graphics and FPS. The game would then run on a powerful PC in their data center and get streamed to your monitor, in my experience this works well but i dont think TSW is available.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
  24. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Whaaaaat!! You think everybody in their 70's is going blind, deaf and toothless?
    Don't you know that 70 is the new 50? :D:D
     
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  25. shimarin

    shimarin Active Member

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    You can… if you don't mind that you can't use the train brakes, also if you touch the mouse you'll loose about 40FPS…
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
  26. bartolomaeusz

    bartolomaeusz Well-Known Member

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    The stuttering happens in TSC as well, as distant scenery is drawn
     
  27. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I dont loose any FPS when touching the mouse. Maybe try another mouse.
    That the Train breaks dont work on the keyboard is something DTG could fix (but they probably will not). So yeah, just keep the controler close and use the buttons for the train breaks.
    Everything else works (except inside the menu, where you need the controller to navigate)
     
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  28. Quentin

    Quentin Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I recently turned 70 and my optician keeps playing with smaller and smaller fonts, as my vision is something like 20/10. I do use reading glasses, but only because my arms are too short :D.
     
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  29. bartolomaeusz

    bartolomaeusz Well-Known Member

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    You are right; the stuttering and freezing is in the game. I have tried many things with the game settings, nVidia panel, engine.ini, bought a new computer. And the stuttering is always present. You can mitigate it maybe, but never get rid of it completely. Like Neo's second black cat, it is a glitch.

    PC/Ryzen 7/RTX 3060
     
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  30. bartolomaeusz

    bartolomaeusz Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely; I am planning to buy it for Christmas after the post-release testing period and bug resolution.

    PC/Ryzen7/RTX3060
     
  31. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Heh, nah, but my grandma's macular degeneration was so bad by then that she couldn't tell me and my sister apart by looking at us.
     
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  32. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    As I have stated in another thread, there are gamers who are very sensitive to fps and can really see the difference between 30 and 60fps. But the majority of people cannot - anything beyond 24fps is seen as more or less smooth (this would not apply to VR). I have a decent cpu and a 1660ti and find that if I run at 1440p with frames locked to 40fps I see very little, if any, stuttering. Running at 4k I see little difference. Running at a steady rate, say 30fps, will likely be more immersive than running at 60fps with random drops to 30.
     
  33. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    I have the opposite issue of lifelong short-sightedness. Took years for my parents to spot it and get me glasses as a kid, which remains baffling as my dad had a pretty similar prescription to what I ended up with, so you'd think they'd have had me and my sister tested sooner, since he's certainly who I got it from. Stuff starts to blur once it gets as far as arms' length away, without my glasses. Probably explains why I was always more of a bookworm as a kid than interested in more outdoor stuff.
     
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  34. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    I've yet to ever find someone who cannot see the difference between 30, 60, and 90 when shown it on three high refresh screens side by side. However as I've pointed out, a lot of people don't have display technology capable of displaying the difference so starkly. They often have displays with a lower framerate cap, for example, they might be using an HDMI 1.4 TV with a cap of 30fps at 4k, or using lower quality panel types with more ghosting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
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  35. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Nope. The 24 fps rule is just for movies. Most people can tell if their game is under 60 fps, and still quite a good number can tell the difference between 60 and 100. Above 100 is when it starts to be difficult.
     
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  36. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    And it's not even true for movies.
    Show me the person who didn't complain about how fake the CG looked in The Hobbit.
    That right there is your brain perceiving the difference between 24fps and 48fps.
    At those higher framerates the illusion is shattered and you can clearly see the difference between the animations and the live action footage they are inserted into. It's why the CG in that looks worse to most people's eyes than the CG used in Jurassic Park, two decades earlier.
     
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  37. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    You should try double vision, lol. I have Prisms in both my lens' of my glasses which helps but as in most things in life it's no cure.

    If visual fidelity is not that important to you have you tried TS1?
     
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  38. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes. My point is that 24 fps is considered the minimum for watching movies, in the same way 60 fps is considered the minimum for gaming. It is not the same watching a movie at 24 fps than playing a game at 24 fps.
     
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  39. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Oooh, you wanna talk prisms? Try optical migraines :D
    Suddenly having one eye turn into a kaleidoscope randomly, with cracks all across your vision like you're looking into a diamond. Great stuff.
     
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  40. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    That 24 FPS thing is not true for gaming as others have pointed out already and iam sure basically everyone will be able to tell the difference between 30 and 60 FPS when there is player motion (for example running around or turning your head in TSW).
     
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  41. I feel for anyone with with eye troubles. Having iritis myself with excruciating pain from looking at a 1w light bulb when it's at its worst and the worry of going blind eventually. It's no joking matter.
     
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  42. My optician told me that unless you are super human anything above 60fps isn't noticeable to the human eye. Anyone that says otherwise has a brilliant imagination.
     
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  43. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    I always thought the eye couldn't tell the difference above 30fps? I cap my framerates at 60 on all games but I cap TSW to 30fps (to stop even more stuttering) and even when I did cap it at 60, I noticed no difference between 30 and 60, I obviously can tell once it hits and falls below mid 20's
     
  44. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Does testing it on the best or one of the highest GPU's give the fairest review? I suppose there are arguments both ways. I saw an argument for more Gen8 reviews and agree there should be.

    Wow not heard of that one before, I get migraines but it doesn't affect my eyesight. I can see perfectly fine just not out both eyes at the same time, hence prisms. If I had been born a 'Cyclops' I'd be peachy, lol.
     
  45. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Well i always cap my FPS at 60 since i dont see a reason for more. I have a 144 Hz Monitor but i certainly dont need 144 FPS.

    In TSW, 30 FPS would be mostly fine if you dont look around or run around to much. Staring out straight of the windshield you might not notice that much of a difference between 30 and 60.
     
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  46. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Just to throw a spanner in the works. I have a 144hz 4k monitor but used to have a 165hz 2k monitor both are good imo. The video is from 2019 but I think he does a reasonable job of explaining why a higher refresh would be of benefit, to some anyway. The clearer a monitor is the better for my eyes. I used to have a 3d monitor and that was good for my double vision.

     
  47. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    UE was basically created as an FPS engine with limited size maps which would load all scenery at start.

    A train simulator requires a different approach, so using UE is always a compromise.
     
  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I suffered quite a bit from those at one time, less so these days, sometimes accompanied by numbness in my hand or foot and the mother of all headaches.
    Last year I had a PVD (posterior vitreous detachment) in my right eye which means I now have almost permanent black wisps or little bubble dots in my vision (floaters). Fortunately no retinal detachment though I had to push the NHS Eye Clinic to do more than one perfunctory check up.
    The other issue I get is if I stare too long and too hard at a close up object for too long (not a computer screen surprisingly) I get a fuzzy blind spot in one eye like the iris reflecting back on itself. That one totally confounded our local NHS Eye Clinic who didn't have a clue what it could be and instead sent me on my way with a chiding...

    Sorry for the OT dissertation, but this is why I feel so strongly about the save game. Whether you have good eyes or bad, prolonged sitting in front of a VDU screen is not going to do them much good.
     
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  49. Perhaps he was accounting for the small percentage with exceptional eyesight.
     
  50. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Ooh yeah, I imagine stereoscopic rendering allows for some handy corrections, and that requires double the refresh rate of the effective fps you're seeing through each eye.

    That bit in the video at 01:50 actually highlights a use case where the high refresh really helps, since you see the shadow coming up on the player around the corner as they reload, and in situations like that, you can have a much snappier response that can be the difference between who gets the drop on who.

    For me, I find my acceptable range starts in the mid-50s if I have VRR turned on, and I'll accept that as the bottom end of FPS I can tolerate in games, if I really want to push the graphics, but generally my comfort zone is between 60 and 90, and above 90 is where I tend to start to lose the ability to distinguish the benefits.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
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