Frequent Stutters While Driving

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Iunoi, Aug 18, 2022.

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  1. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I have the 144 Hz when on the desktop/working.
    I game i would rather have 60 FPS to keep my GPU cool and use less energy.

    Since i play no multiplayer shooters (cause they tend to be full of cheaters anyway) i really dont need over 100 FPS.
     
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  2. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    That´s true. But the problem is that the image is generated artificially on a screen and you don´t see a real moving object in front of you, that moves therefore continuously in real life. Even if you could not notice the difference, and even if your brain is always interpolating the frames so that a 24fps movie on the cinema still creates the effect of moving objects when there are a lot of missing frames in between, a rendered image has better quality the higher the rendering frequency is. Basically because there are less missing frames in between two consecutive movements of the objects or, if you prefer it, because the movement of the object is presented to you with a higher amount of updated intermediate positions, so closer to what a true continuous movement in real life is.

    For instance a 60fps image (or a 60Hz monitor) will present to you a new frame every 16ms. However a 120Hz monitor will do it every 8ms. Imagine a theoretical situation where one object was able to run extremely fast the whole width of a regular monitor, taking 16ms to do it, so using the update time of one frame on a 60Hz monitor. And imagine you were also able to spot it well. You would be able to see an update of its position at least two times when that frame has elapsed: once on the left side and once on the right side. However if the image is rendered at 120Hz the updating would happen at half the time. So during the same 16ms you could spot the object once at the left side, once more at the center of the screen and finally once at the right side as well. So when rendering happens a 60Hz image has only 2 reference positions to interpolate that moving image but a 120Hz image has 3 reference positions to interpolate it in this scenario.

    Even if your eyes could only see at 60Hz, if you played such a movement endless during several seconds at 60Hz, and you were only able to see the center of the screen but not the sides (imagine they are covered), you will never see the object in the center. As you don´t see the sides because they are covered and is where the updating takes place, for you the image won´t show any moving object at all. You have lost the frame where the object was changing its position therefore. However if it´s rendered at 120Hz in the same situation (with sides covered), as you normally blink and therefore the image is not always synchronized with your eyes, at some time you will be able to spot the image at the center of the screen, so for you it will be still a moving image. You are not losing the frame where the object was moving. If you now remove the coverings so that you are able to see both the center and the sides, after several blinks you will sometimes see the object on the sides only and other times the object on the center only and therefore you will be also having 3 reference positions to interpolate the movement as well and your are not losing any frame where the object is moving. In a game this updating happens much more times per second, so the amount of interpolation points presented to player is also much higher than just 2 or 3, so the chance to lose a frame where the object is moving is lower and therefore that increases the average effect of a smoother image. It will be still an image that is moving pseudo-continuously, because is generated artificially, but is closer to a real one.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
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  3. Interesting read.
     
  4. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Your optician is not a gamer.
     
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  5. How do you think we got onto the subject of displays refresh rate?
     
  6. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Then he has no clue.
     
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  7. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    Your optician is simply incorrect lol. I can easily tell the difference between 60fps and higher, and know a lot of people who can also. Wouldn't classify any of us as super human. Maybe it's something that changes with age?
     
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  8. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    I mean, it's entirely possible to be acting on outdated information from before we knew better. The technology for rendering this stuff didn't exist until fairly recently, so it wasn't as easy to test and debunk certain ideas. Its use in gaming has meant we have direct use-cases people interact with in their everyday lives.
     
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  9. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    Indeed that is possible, but it doesn't change the fact.
     
  10. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Well, no. It merely explains people being wrong.
    Anchoring bias, where people will often reject new data which contradicts something they were previously taught, is very much a thing you can observe all over the place.
    It was only within the last decade that we discovered that the human eye and brain can, on average, process an image in only 13 milliseconds. Meaning we can process 80 frames per second, and likely more than that.



    Side note, I can confirm that my ADHD medication (dextroamphetamine) increases how noticeable lower framerates and dodgy frame pacing are. Which tracks with its effects on things like pupil dilation and reaction times, as well as sustained attention.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that is really true, at least in the console world; up until the current generation all consoles ran at 30.
     
  12. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK, it depends on the game. In some you can even trade render resolution for framerate. A few years back not all TVs could do 60Hz. Nowadays most of them (if not all) can. In any case, any game studio that knows what they are doing aims for at least 60 fps. Of course they might not be able to keep it with consoles or low end PCs because they can't do magic, but at the very least it is the target for the medium-high end and above.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
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  13. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Actually, way back they ran faster, up to and including the 5th generation of consoles, 60fps (or 50 in PAL regions) was commonplace, as games often ran at half vertical resolution in order to achieve it. It was only as they pushed for higher and higher graphical fidelity than the hardware could cope with in subsequent generations to keep pace with PC games that we saw 30 become a target.

    And they may have targeted 30, but in the 360/PS3 era, yeowch.
    Check out these dips as low as 14 on Crysis 2
    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
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  14. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    It's not just what is noticeable to the human eye. Response time from the game also matters, especially for shooters and racing games. The higher the FPS, the better the response time is. The game feels more fluid.
     
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  15. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    One thing to note is that it is usually accepted (there are some that differ) that fps cannot exceed the monitor refresh rate and the difference be perceptible. However, this is where human diversity comes in - we all know that some people have capabilities well beyond the average in one area or another - just look at a video of a concert pianist in full flight - or more in line with our obsession with visual acuity, a fighter pilot..
     
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  16. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    It all depends on the game for starters I would say. If you are playing a FPS and run on a 144hv against someone who is running a 60hz then you will definitely have an advantage, if you have decent eyesight that is. Other games then it is not so clear cut.

    I wonder if high refresh rates would be better for TSW2? Would it help stuttering or does it make it worse as there is a link between drawing frames at the right speed?
     
  17. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    I mean, the difference between caps of 30 and 60 in TSW2 is VERY noticeable, to the point where if I am travelling and only have my Series S, I can only play comfortably in 1080p mode. So I wouldn't be surprised if there's probably room for improvement in smoothness above that.
     
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  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Again, if your monitor refreshes at 60, any CPU speed above that will be wasted (and may in fact cause stutters, unless VSync is turned on- which caps your fps).
     
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  19. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    I was specifically referring to the game's inbuilt caps on the series S console of 30 at 4k and 60 at 1080 as a comparison where we can directly and easily see the difference, to illustrate that obviously yes, it'd look even better at even higher refresh rates. Wouldn't help stuttering of course, but would look unquestionably nicer. I find the 30 cap on console to be literally uncomfortable to look at, far too flickery when moving.

    I game on 170hz monitors, and when a game has an uncapped FPS that averages above 50, I turn VRR on, and it's a delight. Vastly preferable to vsync, with screen tearing eliminated but without the additional stutter and/or input latency vsync can sometimes incur, and with a smoother, higher framerate.
    Sadly for console games, uncapped fps options have been a limited bunch until recently (Although we got the impressive example of the XBox port of Morrowind which was running uncapped on that system 20 years ago and ran like garbage as a result, averaging 20-45fps for a super choppy experience, but on Series X backcompat can manage 120 without it breaking a sweat) with gen9 being where it's really started being an option more devs include, but on PC, it's fairly standard as an option in most games' menus to give the choices between a particular desired cap or no cap (As an aside to that regarding refresh rates, nice to see Valve broaden the options on Steam Deck too of late, allowing for 50hz modes to work properly, since while it can't manage to hit a consistent 60 in many games, 50 is a more reasonable target the hardware can accomplish in some).

    But yeah, I will always pick a lower resolution over any framerate lower than that minimum I'll accept, but I certainly imagine that I'd get an even smoother experience were I to be willing to invest in the PC version, if I had it running uncapped on my laptop with it able to go higher, since I definitely noticed the improvement in most PC titles I have running at around 90+ which I used to cap at 60 when running on my old 60hz monitors.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
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  20. d_stevanov

    d_stevanov Active Member

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    Man, I was so excited to see tsw 3 announced, but after reading the forum, I think it will be a hard pass for me. Stuttering, lighting, sound, saves, nothing that actually matters is fixed. Now I put all my hopes into derail valley finally delivering that long awaited update and getting out of early access. It has physics, sounds and gameplay the tsw can only dream about. Shame it's 50h of gameplay max.
     
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  21. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Racings games use a number of different engines, some with Racing roots, (like Ego, which is used in F1, but also powers first person shooters), and others, not. One of the most popular sim racers out there at the moment, Assetto Corsa Competizione, actually uses UE4.
     
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  22. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Assetto? I'm sure I had that and ran a mod on it and had no stuttering issues at all in that game so that begs the question how can they do it where DTG cannot.
     
  23. shimarin

    shimarin Active Member

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    How long is an average race track? 4–7 kilometres? The longest one (Spa) in Asscoco is 7,004 kilometre long. How long is a TSW route? 14–180 kilometres…

    Also Asscoco share many of TSW's shortcoming (on XSX, at least): everything else but the car models looks dated, the FPS can dip (in the rain at the back of the grid, or all the time at the PS2 level virtual mirror), the draw distance is super low…
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
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  24. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    I mean, there's a whole bunch of different factors between a title like that, TSW2, and whatever game you want to name using the engine. Look at the discussion of the XBox audio bugs, and how this game avoided them completely, and how they did so by licensing third party tools DTG didn't have access to for TSW2.
     
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  25. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Here's a thought, do we have a decent Rally game using UE4 we can do a more apples to apples comparison with?
     
  26. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    From what I remember of Assetto it was a good racing sim where everything seemed to work, certainly no stuttering. You compare a track length to a route length in TSW2, that's a bit unfair no? If you are going to compare length then compare a typical race length of laps x track length and then you have a grid of cars doing that total length as well and also take in consideration of multiplayer which also has to maps a grid full of players on a race track at all times.

    I would say a racing game is just as complicated.

    I did a quick look but found nowt apart from a fan remake of Sega Rally in UE5, apparently it looks awesome so far.
     
  27. zappatime

    zappatime Well-Known Member

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    Assetto Corsa, a PC only racing sim, ran on their (Kunos Simulazioni's) own in-house engine; Assetto Corsa Competizione, their newer racing sim, available on pc and consoles, ran on UE4. Kunos' lead programmer is an extremely talented software engineer.
     
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  28. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    I play assetto corsa competizione quite often, on the same machine I run TSW 2, and experience 0 stuttering, compared to what we all experience in TSW 2. Of course the excuse of how many tiles etc etc can be made, but what I know is that I run the game at 4k max settings at a constant 60fps, regardless of how many cars are on track or what the weather is, whereby on some routes I'm at 40 something fps.
     
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  29. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    There is just something broken with TSW but probably to deep inside the code so as long there is no mayor engine change nothing will get better
     
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  30. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if DTG actually reach out to other companies using the same engine and have no errors and ask for advice? I would, if it meant I could improve the game. Like they say 'happy customers more sales' which should please everyone.
     
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  31. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Im looking forward to the first reports about TSW3 performance hand how the stuttering is compared to TSW2
     
  32. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    Most the German routes right now are an FPS mess because some of the AI Dostos are tanking FPS. Seems like some kind of bug as it’s been reported by people on all platforms and only seems to have started in the last few months. For the people mentioning FPS drop on German routes next time pay attention and see if it is happening when a Dosto is stopped near by or passing by.
     
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  33. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    Same engine, same game with more fonctions.
    I'm afraid you just can wait for less performance:/
     
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