Spirit Of Save

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by March Hare, Aug 10, 2022.

  1. goochdog#5870

    goochdog#5870 Well-Known Member

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    It’s hard to believe that the DTG checklist didn’t have “make sure Save Game is working “ at the very top of list, considering that the new routes that are fanfared (not a word but you know what I mean) as being a lot longer than previous ones that could take up to two hours to complete . As much as I love TSW and the passion of those involved in making it etc , we have had so many promises regarding when things will be fixed that I have no confidence that they even know when or if the save game feature will appear in TSW3 .
    I’m sorry that I have to say that !
    For me (and I’m sure many others ) it’s a deal breaker and I cannot and will not buy it while it’s not a feature of TSW3 .
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
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  2. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I think when is always going to be a difficult one to pin down precisely, but that if I would argue can be taken out of the equation, because there is no logical reason why, with some reprogramming, such a bug shouldn't be fixed and therefore save reinstated. Even if it takes a multitude of patches to cover all the routes.
     
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  3. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As a postscript I managed to complete the SEHS run that failed, by "E" exiting the train and saving at Strood. No backed up trains in the HS1 tunnel section.
    However there are so many variables at play - last time I might have saved at Gravesend or even beyond Ebbsfleet, maybe I was earlier or later on the times than previously it is hard to say whether this is a workable solution. Still two out of three scenarios that I might have expected to fail did not and the one that did might have been a different bug.

    So the conclusion has to be - and saying this until blue in the face - flawed as it might be, keep the current save function going until/if it can be replaced by a more robust function.
     
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  4. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    Should we be putting this kind of situation on the spreadsheet, where you have success by doing that where you previously had red light failures? Even if they determine it's a coincidence.

    Honestly, though, I am so confident now that Matt and the team will fix the major show-stopping save bug across the routes that, if they reinstated save game now or in a post-launch patch, I would invest in TSW3 for the dynamic weather alone.
     
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  5. nepclassof84

    nepclassof84 Well-Known Member

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    So I just had an interesting bit of fun. I was running a LIRR service to Ronkokoma when I had a yellow signal that changed to green. I was in the middle of a 9 mile trip between Jamaica and Mineola. I tapped save on the yellow thinking the next might be red and I'm nearly up to the 80mph track limit when lo and behold there is a train stopped in the next station! I never got a red signal and ran into the back of it doing 70. Needless to say I derailed and failed the scenario.

    I loaded my save and immediately threw the train into emergency and I was just barely able to avoid the crash. As I'm about 20yards from the rear of the other train I'm still decelerating in emergency I'm not going to stop I know he starts to pull out of the station. I just barely missed him. NOW I get the red signal and I wait to get yellow to go. I saved again.

    I was then so focused on not hitting the train again I went into the 60mph zone to cross over to the other line at about 78mph. Rather than sacrifice ability points and knowing I had a save handy I restored again.

    Thank God I had that save feature. This is probably the 5th time it has bailed me out in the past week.

    Just saying.

    As glad I was to hear TrainSim-Matt say very clearly "I want it gone" (meaning the issues with the save gone) I really hope they decide to keep it. I applaud them for putting the pressure squarely on them to fix it. I loved hearing they are going to hit it hard in the next 2-3 days. I'm 100% confident they will fix it. I really hope they decide to give us something while we wait.

    Kudos to the three of you for doing these streams. I could see it was daylight when it started and pitch black when it was over. Thanks for the dedication.
     
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  6. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    The amount of times when first getting used to a new route or loco where I've hit save a mile out of the yard on an hour and a half long US freight run, and then reloaded three times to find the sweet spot on braking for that gradient/train that ensures I don't overshoot the stop marker and get a SPAD. Save is super useful in those situations where there's only one signal left on the route and it's meant to be red.
     
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  7. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I could be wrong, as I have yet to properly learn the US railway and signalling systems, but I believe it's permissable for two trains to occupy the same section of track, one behind the other, unlike in the UK? And the signalling is more based on speed, i.e. the signals might have been indicating to take a slower speed than the maximum line speed theoretically allows, so that you would have had time to brake behind that train?

    I'm sure an expert can help us out here.
     
  8. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I had 30 minutes (well, I put aside a bleary-eyed 30 minutes at Stupidly Late O'clock when I should have been sleeping) last night to carry on testing save, this time on East Coastway. It's a quieter line, at least on this scenario, and I've saved multiple times without an apparent issue so far. I saved and quit out with about 15 minutes left on the journey last night, so I'll see what happens when I reload again...

    It got me wondering, if there are less busy routes that demonstrably don't have a major red light issue when saving during DTG's and our testing, i.e. it's been saved and reloaded X number of times without running into the show-stopping issue, will those routes have save reinstated very quickly after the release of TSW3? A week or two later?
     
  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yes if they are going to do this they need to prioritise between easy routes (Cane Creek which has no signals on the branch itself, plus hardly any AI traffic) and the longer routes. I accept the problem ones like DCZ, Dresden to Riesa, BML etc. will probably not be first. But get the low hanging fruit done and at least it gives us something to work with.
     
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  10. nepclassof84

    nepclassof84 Well-Known Member

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    In some cases it's allowed for two trains to occupy the same block. The LIRR doesn't allow this. You can only enter a block with a proper signal indicator or permission from the dispatcher.
     
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  11. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I hadn't got much into learning the US or German railways yet. I'm hoping the new training centre will help me out in that regards.
     
  12. nepclassof84

    nepclassof84 Well-Known Member

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    The cool thing about this game is the railroads from different parts of the world. I've ridden Amtrak out of Boston and NY. I'm actually taking the LIRR train to Hicksville next week to go for a model railroading operating session. I've been railfanning in Koln and every time I run into the station I can see where I was sitting filming the trains. I've been railfanning in London. I took a sightseeing day and went to each of London's stations to watch the trains (and have tea and pasty). The volume of trains in England and Germany are completely foreign to me. We don't see that here. Being able to run those routes, and marvel at the trackwork etc is a railfan paradise.
     
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  13. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It depends entirely on the railway; the US has no unified national set of rules (there are two standards, NORAC and GCOR, but they are voluntary).
     
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  14. nepclassof84

    nepclassof84 Well-Known Member

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    Anything that gets saves back into tsw3 is great news to me.

    fingers crossed
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2022
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  15. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I still think it is not acceptable. No save function and nobody at DTG will give the slightest indication when we will get it back. It may take a year or even longer. Above are enough cases showing the save function is essential, which is acknowledged by Matt, so why not hold the release and get it fixed now? (I know the answer of course, but we are already getting updates for five years without a working save function, so it is a bit late for DTG to discover something is really going wrong).
     
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  16. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. Holding release back two or three months would also allow more time to sort out the not insignificant lighting and sound issues. And I really don’t want to hear excuses any more about UE4 or their adaptation of it holding things back. Your code. Your game. Sort it.
     
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  17. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I'm beginning to think this is probably right. TSW3 doesn't appear to be quite ready for prime time in the areas of lighting, sound and the UI. Even the dynamic weather may not be as random as we are led to believe, and may need some tweaking. And they should have been working on the save game problem while development was ongoing.

    It might have been a good idea to stick TSW3 back in the oven for a few weeks or months to make some adjustments and polish up some aspects.

    But we all know this isn't going to happen. The launch dates, pricing and feature set are firmly in place, the preorders are in, so we know what we'll be getting in a couple of weeks.

    We can, maybe, and that's a big maybe, influence what happens with the inevitable post-launch patches, though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
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  18. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Happy to report that my current run from Leeds to Manchester on NTP has survived and completed after not just one, but two saves and reloads.

    So come on Dovetail, there is absolutely no need to withhold the facility from TSW3.
     
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  19. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    And another successful save/load on the Brighton Main Line. The complex Re-routed scenario, saved just south of East Croydon with the train still moving. This is a complex scenario which has you following closely behind a South Central service to Haywards Heath where it actually pulls out ahead of you so you have to wait line clear. You then run reversible over the Up line from Burgess Hill to Preston Park. Not only did everything work fine for my train, it appeared none of the AI was stuck either.
     
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  20. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    Clearly save isn't fixed. I mean, I have reported a red signal instance on the spreadsheet. But the success rate seems significantly higher than it used to be, when I gave up playing because of it. So I have to wonder what changed in one of the many patches...

    Ironically, I started playing expecting numerous failed saves with the sole goal of logging the information on Matt's spreadsheet, but it turns out I'm enjoying TSW2 again because saves are working, bar that one I logged. Now I'm thinking I have even more reason to stick with TSW2, not buy 3, while save is being fixed properly.
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Same here March. I really thought if I could get one to fall down it would be on BML.

    In several sessions now the only failure I had was on DCZ which I have reason to believe was because the run/scenario itself is bugged (following the core updates to accommodate SoS), so not strictly the same thing.

    That said I do believe some work was done on BML in particular to overcome the high occurrence of redouts and lock ups even when playing straight through a run.

    Once again I implore DTG to give us the current save game in TSW3 unless a very quick updated version is on the cards. I really don't know who we need to go higher to raise this and get the decision overturned - Paul Jackson himself?
     
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  22. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    If anyone finds a dbg Engine.ini setting (or a console command) that is re-enabling saving, I may re-consider re-buying the game on an earlier sale, possibly before the saving is officially re-implemented.
     
  23. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Interesting idea. Would probably cause someone to have kittens! :D:D
     
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  24. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Rack up another success...
    6S17 Lackenby to Dalzell in Journey Mode. Tried at least three times previously to complete this after resuming a save before leaving the yard only to get stopped at a red signal about a mile west of Middlesbrough. This evening, same circumstances - greens all the way to Darlington.

    So if anything the save game is working better than it ever did. Maybe something changed in the last core update.

    Stop being stubborn DTG and give us our save game in TSW3. Please.
     
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  25. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I logged a red signal issue on the spreadsheet just now with Minehead Shunting Part 2. Although admittedly I could be missing something. But I didn't see anything I could do... Was at the point of reversing the main loco up to the carriages I had formed with the shunter, but the small trackside signals seemed stuck on red and the track switch hadn't auto changed position (no option to do it manually at this stage), so the loco kept reversing towards the side bays; wouldn't go to the platform where the carriages, passengers, and indeed those red signals were all waiting. I even tried contacting the signaller but nothing seemed to happen. Seems to me those trackside signals and the track switch should have all automatically changed for me.
     
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  26. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I've been successfully saving regularly in the past week or so, most recently on HSC. Save game seems to work well on US freight routes.

    I'd like to at least try it on Cajon Pass. It would very likely work on that route and allow me to play it.

    But it seems that DTG have set this issue behind an iron curtain.

    Since Cajon Pass is 90% of the reason I'm buying TSW3, I'll have to hope and pray that it has some shortish services or split runs.
     
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  27. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    Still very disappointed that we have not heard any news regarding any updates for the save feature. The ambiguous "coming after release" isn't good enough for me personally, especially since DTG's definition of upcoming is all over the place. Content like Peninsula Corridor and RRO's preserved update seem more like myths than something coming soon. For all we know, the save game feature might be a year away. Maybe some sort of roadmap would be nice, especially since from the streams they implied it would be a phased introduction. I understand the TSW2 routes will take a while, but surely the TSW3 ones will come sooner.


    Now I have to continue to have TSW2 installed instead of deleting it completely off my system for the upcoming game just so I don't have to dedicate time for a full service mode run.
     
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  28. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, if I wanted to recreate the real experience of driving for BNSF, I'd stay awake for 19 hours prior to starting a run, then do it every day for 14 days straight even if I had food poisoning or something, and set fire to 10% of the money I make, at the end of the month.
     
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  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Funnily enough that’s one I have left to check. Last time I tried it got the shunting done okay but when I set off back to Minehead, came up against a permanent red at the next home signal. Then WSR has always been twitchy with the signalling anyway. An early route and (probably) the prototype for UK semaphore signalling and single line operations in TSW. It’s not a route I generally use that much anyway, at least until we get a GWR steam layer, as the 25 MPH limit does my head in.
     
  30. goochdog#5870

    goochdog#5870 Well-Known Member

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    What concerns me is that the reason there has been no mention as to when the save will be mended on TSW 3 is that is so broken that they have no idea when or if it will be fixed .

    See also Rush Hour London Commuter , Boston safety systems . PS5 data etc etc
     
  31. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well actually as March Hare and myself have been testing, it no longer appears to be as broken as it once was.

    The problem is whether DTG are actually taking notice of this and the requests to reinstate the current save on a caveat emptor basis. The silence on both that and the timescale for the "fixed" version is frankly concerning. If we do get a stream at some point in the current week, hopefully the points can be raised again.
     
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  32. bartolomaeusz

    bartolomaeusz Well-Known Member

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    I just tested this on Dresden (from Meissen) and it worked. But the one to really test it on is London Commuter, since this is the most notorious. Thanks!
     
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  33. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Oh well, first one recorded on the spreadsheet.
    Minehead Shunt Part 1 fell down as previous, after loading the save from halfway during the shunt at Washford on returning towards Minehead the home signal at Blue Anchor is at danger and cannot be tabbed past. There are no other trains moving on the route. However, as I noted above, have a feeling WSR is a special case as the signalling was always fragile and it could be something in the scripting too.
     
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  34. bartolomaeusz

    bartolomaeusz Well-Known Member

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    I've tried this as well and it has worked so far .. thanks!
     
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  35. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how long part 2 takes, but it looks like I'll have to try it in full. It probably tells you the length somewhere... I actually liked the idea of a slower, scenic route, so I got this heavily discounted, and this is as far as I got some months ago.
     
  36. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Paradoxically, BML is one of the routes on which I almost never need to use save game, because I can almost always complete a service in an hour or less. Nevertheless, it's important to have the feature available just in case it's needed. I'll check it out a little later.

    I agree with OldVern, though. The current save game works at least 80% of the time, well within the range of " might as well keep it for now ".
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
  37. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As a control I ran the Minehead Shunter Part 1 scenario through in one go and was able to complete it. The only anomaly was that the Down Distant for Blue Anchor was at caution but the Home and Section signals were clear. Then again it might be a fixed distant. That's enough testing on the WSR for a month or two!
     
  38. Kitten

    Kitten Active Member

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    My guess is they just hide save from the GUI, so console commands will still be functional. Use Universal Unreal Unlocker to inject every time you run the game.
     
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  39. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Matt confirmed it's just been disabled from the UI.

    Cheers
     
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  40. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    Would nice if someone make a tutorial for saving game & resuming game using UUU. Me myself so not familiar with this tool.
     
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  41. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    This is all so stupid. We know it is not working as it should and it is good that fixing it gets high priority, but nobody promises WHEN it will be fixed. It may take a year or longer. So why are we not allowed to make our own decision to keep this function? As said, I will not pay the full price for TSW3 if nothing is done about this. I really do not understand this.It's already not working for five years and now Matt is concerned about a number of tickets?
     
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  42. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I think we need a focused campaign this week, in amongst all their publicity and high five streaming to keep the issue alive.

    However it is interesting to know there may be an external workaround albeit a bit of a faff if you need to enable it each time. What we need is a hack that will permanently switch the save game back on.
     
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  43. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Let's be honest, nobody cares about this forum. I doubt we will see a save fix anytime soon, probably never
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
  44. Kitten

    Kitten Active Member

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    Probably because they don't want to harm the new player experience, for someone who first rail sim might be TSW3.
     
  45. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    I think this is pretty much what was said in the streams.

    I do think it's funny that after the community finally got fed up enough with the wonky save function to make it a cause by posting lots of examples of failures to the forum, to the point where DTG is actually addressing it as a priority, people are now protesting the removal of the broken feature by posting lots of examples of non-failure to the forum to show that, well, it's actually not so bad that we can't live with it. One hopes that DTG staff has good medical insurance that covers all the incidences of whiplash that must result from trying to please their customers.
     
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  46. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I have to be honest. I think that this reporting thread is something of a red herring, a pablum to assuage the playing communnity. If so, it's plainly not working, there's still a lot of disappointment, resentment and frustration among the many players who have come to rely on this feature, especially when playing long, time-consuming routes, not helped by the intransigence coming from DTG. No bending, no compromising. There's simply no logical, fair minded reason to withhold save game at this time. Personally, it will compel me to continue playing my favorite routes on the soon to be unsupported TSW2.

    We all know that this is a design flaw that originates with the initial coding of the software and the solution probably lies with the reworking of that part of the game code.

    If the problem isn't solved quickly, it will become a major stumbling block for many players, particularly for those of us who play the lengthier routes that are, paradoxically, now the new norm. Without save game, does it make sense for us to invest in these longer routes, that may become unplayable?

    We need to keep campaigning to keep this issue firmly on the front burner.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
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  47. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Well-Known Member

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    I think the existing player base has legitimate concerns about the save function on many fronts.

    Is it a longstanding complaint? Yes. But, it was still obviously useful, even in its broken state. After all, if players weren't still using this feature, then why bother complaining about it?

    So, for a period of time DTG doesn't appear to do very much about it. Then, for TSW3, the feature is removed. True, the player base had raised additional concerns, because of the "new" longer route lengths. But, as has been noted, the reasoning for said removal was mostly for prospective new players, apparently to prevent angst and confusion. So, this removal was not done, even superficially, for the benefit of existing players.

    In that regard, I would respectfully submit that if anyone were to have whiplash, it would be the existing player base, to be going from seemingly no immediate concern about this issue at DTG, to "this feature is so broken that we can't possibly leave it in the game in any form." And then, after removal, we are told not to worry, because the fix will be prioritized.

    Well then, I suppose it stands to reason that a fix was not a priority until now. In my opinion DTG has gone about this in the worst way possible. I don't think the existing player base has anything to celebrate about how this has all come to pass. And, if the attitude at DTG really is, "They complain when it's broken and then again when we take it away," I think that says a lot about the current situation we find ourselves in.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
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  48. nepclassof84

    nepclassof84 Well-Known Member

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    Does TSW have a higher priority issue than the save function? If it were my decision this would be my top priority and I've have my strongest team on it. In DTG's defense Matt did indicate very clearly that it was a top priority for them to fix (perhaps not "THE" top but very close to it. In his words "I want it gone". That's a strong public statement from a game's executive producer. He was also very clear he had a strong team assembling in "the next two to three days" to begin work on fixing it. That was made longer than two to three days ago so presumably that team is assembled and working on a fix.

    My personal opinion is still to have it there in its current state and then patched. The reality is it's their business and their game and they are going to do what they think is in their best interests.

    Last point regarding the new player experience. I think I can comment on that. When I bought TSW2 last Christmas for myself that save feature did not harm my "new player experience". Even in its current state it has helped my new player experience. It has also saved me wasted hours on numerous occasions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
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  49. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    He also said pretty much the same thing about the PS5 64GB limit. Pretty much goes to show what highest priority means.
     
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  50. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    This is what I was addressing above. The previous complaints focused on the problems with the save sabotaging runs, until the removal was announced, at which point the complaints became about the absence of a save sabotaging runs.

    That last sentence doesn't follow from the previous one. Everyone is affected equally, whether benefiting or not.

    Personally, I think it's the right move, but I accept that I'm in the vocal minority. The bad save can't be un-inflicted from the current player base, but it doesn't have to be inflicted on new players (whose reaction would no doubt be the same as that of the current players until very recently).

    I don't see how DTG changing their mind and addressing a longtime problem is a bad thing.

    No disagreement here at all. They've put themselves in a no-win situation with both solutions being less than desirable. Hopefully the lesson is learned to henceforth patch trickles before they become gushers.
     
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