The Downfall Of Trainsim World For Me. I'm Certainly Not Intrested In A 3rd Attempt To Get It Right.

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Gabe_1.0, Aug 25, 2022.

  1. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    SEHS before SEHS, if you will.
     
  2. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Right. CSX: Heavy Haul was renamed Sand Patch Grade for its reincarnation.
    Surprising that SEHS wasn't given a new moniker for TSW3.
     
  3. nockwurst

    nockwurst Well-Known Member

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    Well said.

    I am travelling home next week and will be pulling my original NES out of my old bedroom closet to bring back with me. Still has all my games, including my favorite back then, the Original Final Fantasy. All purchased in 1990. Guess what? Had a working save back even then, of sorts.

    Zero reason why this was not more important to DTG over the last few years.
     
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  4. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Second that.

    I dusted off Derail Valley last night and not only does it have an automatic exit save, it autosaves at regular intervals as you play along too. And this is a game coded in Unity by a few guys working in their spare time.
     
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  5. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Yeah sorry nepclassof84, I'm used to flight sims where sometimes it crashes (even the posh new ones) and generally you have to live with it and start again.
     
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  6. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    My wife plays different games than me, but I've noticed that almost every game she plays automatically saves on exit.
    If DTG had started working on this when Heavy Haul launched in 2017, they would surely have this feature by now.
     
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  7. nepclassof84

    nepclassof84 Well-Known Member

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    One exception out of hundreds if not thousands. That makes what 99.9% of all games made in the past 30 years to have a save feature?
     
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  8. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, what was the one exception?
     
  9. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    In all other games you can change the season and weather in the scenario editor
    In TSW3 it's always July and always sunny.
    A feature games already had in the '90s
     
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  10. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Derail Valley is great for what it is, and i'm looking forward to the new features, but as it stands there's no signalling, no AI whatsoever, very limited loco selection, and no real-life TOCs or routes .

    The progression is also a bit grindy for me, but that's very subjective. I don't think it's really an apples-to-apples comparison.

    Also the save function in TSW has NEVER worked correctly for me, so no great loss there- i do hope they implement a functioning save once they figure out the issue.
     
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  11. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Disintegration7 You almost sound like you're saying that non all games are the same and that some are more complicated than others :D
     
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  12. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that it is not a single issue.
    Since DTG makes lots of changes in each route, a save function needs to be made specifically for each route.
     
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  13. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, every route is its own game
     
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  14. 2martens

    2martens Well-Known Member

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    Actually, save feature is way easier for indie games. They use engines without custom modifications and likely have fewer moving parts with less complex logic.

    But even AAA games mostly are far easier in this respect. For example Witcher 3 has a huge open world but the state of the world consists largely of these things:
    - quest progression (incl open world encounters)
    - player character progression (e.g. skill trees)
    - inventories
    - player position
    - player stats (stamina, etc)

    You cannot save within fights and for a reason. It would be very hard to correctly replicate the state of the fight. Of course there is a design choice as well.

    As for train simulators, I haven’t experienced one train sim, that is somewhat similar to TSW, that got it working solidly.

    The reason is quite simply that it’s not possible to save the exact position within the executed code. You would need to store some other information which allows you on loading a save to replicate the code state.

    In the example of the dispatcher, you would need to store the state of the dispatcher (allowed routes, priorities of trains) but also the location of trains. But even with that you have a problem: trains were driving a certain speed. When you load, they will start with 0 kph. You can actually see this, when you load on foot in timetable near the arrival of a train. It will spawn at its supposed location but with zero speed and that causes a change of behaviour. It is mostly unnoticeable but with speeds up to 280 kph, this speed up could take a considerable amount of time.

    Change of speed can lead to a different dispatcher behaviour going forward (after loading save and replicating state) compared with the behaviour when playing from start. Therefore, the speed would also need to be replicated.

    I don’t know if Simugraph can handle simultaneously starting at high speed on many trains. That could lead to a CPU spike.

    They’re working on it but I can totally understand that it isn’t easy.
     
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  15. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly right. Hopefully they can reintroduce saving route-by-route with proper testing on ALL platforms to make sure it works.

    Obviously this should have been implemented from the beginning days of TSW, but it wasn't, so here we are.

    DTG really need to make sure their solution works before deploying it, or it will just enflame the situation.
     
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  16. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    All those things except for the limited loco selection are positives for what Derail Valley is trying to be.
    There are lots of games that do allow you to save in fights. And allow you to save in moving vehicles.
     
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  17. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I really would not mind if you could only save at stations
     
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  18. 2martens

    2martens Well-Known Member

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    I should’ve been more specific: speed itself is just a value and easy. But Simugraph complicates this with logic.

    As for fights: I would bet that most of these games fake it. You likely start with less health as appropriate which is just a value and easy. But the enemy will likely reengage in combat as if you just started the fight. That might be close enough so that you don’t notice the difference but the technical difference is significant.

    For everyone with some skills who thinks this is easy: download UE4 editor and try to correctly save the state of a blueprint so that it continues after loading at the same position as before.
    https://docs.unrealengine.com/4.27/en-US/InteractiveExperiences/SaveGame/
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
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  19. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    This could be why we have seen some success with saving while at stations and even using the E key to stand up and physically exit the cab before doing so.

    However we still come back round the circle that the current save game largely does work but DTG or even Matt in particular have unilaterally and arbitrarily decided to remove it and not listening to reason from the customers who would be quite happy to see it retained on an optional and caveat emptor basis, until (if) something better can be brought in.

    That clip of the German route circulating showed the first portion of the journey to Fulda alone is 30 minutes. If the next section is as long or even longer you are looking at over an hour to do the full run. Not all of us get that long in one go, so that route - let alone Cajon with its slow uphill grind - are going to be useless in TSW3. SEHS will probably offer some shorter runs but most in SoS are getting on for an hour.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
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  20. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I prefer that others crowdfund this new release. I understand that DTG is a small studio and they need funds but the performance and technical aspects appear to be too far from the target they pretend to meet. Investing on the future and forgetting the past would be a better approach I think. For the time being I will not eat the bait for a third time either. I still think that Unreal 4 is not the way to go. It was for TSW1 maybe but beyond that point they are just going in circles around the same limitations, problems and rushing over and over again. Let´s see how this evolves and what they can do before the big sales start. That could be their last chance.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
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  21. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    Saving is currently bugged. That's it. You can save anything in any game, no matter how complex. Likewise, you can save the state of any Unreal Engine blueprint, if it's done correctly. Implementing saving correctly is the only issue here.
     
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  22. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. All this nonsense about it being so, so complicated and has to be coded separately for every route. I don't believe it.

    If any of this were true, how do you explain it working flawlessly in 75-80% of cases in TSW2? And this is the figure quoted by DTG itself.

    If it is somewhat broken ( that is, it doesn't work 20-25% of the time ), that's because it was coded poorly from the beginning. In other words, as March Hare said, it's bugged. It needs to be reworked at the basic coding level, a software problem that is not by any means insoluble.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
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  23. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    It is not nonsense at all. Each loco, dispatcher version, etc... has different variables that need to be saved. From what Matt told us, UE can automaticaly save simple instances of objects, but for more complex ones you need manually code how to do it.
     
  24. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    That still doesn't explain why it works in TSW2 75% of the time. Do you think that's just dumb luck?
     
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  25. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is not just luck. DTG obviously tries to code the save function or functions for each DLC the best they can. Sometimes they have more luck with the bugs than others. That is why the success rate for saving/restoring is not exactly the same for every route and loco.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2022
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  26. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I'm loathe to prolong this conversation, because you and I are never going to agree, but one thing you imply puzzles me.

    Are you suggesting that DTG has been constantly working on the save game problem lo these many years? Because my impression is they've just arrived late to the party and are now ( maybe ) feverishly working to make it work in TSW3.
     
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  27. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    They worked on it, but for each DLC. Example:
    DTG works on the Riesa-Dresden night lighting, you get a good night lighting in that route.
    Does it fix lighting in previous DLCs? No.
    Do all the following DLCs have the same or better lighting quality? No.

    Same for game saves:
    DTG works on Riesa-Dresden saving routines.
    Does it fix previous DLC saving routines? No.
    Does it fix following DLC saving routines? No.

    How much does DTG work to fix the saving routines for each DLC?. They do the initial work, then work more on it or not after release depending on how many complaints there are and the severity of the other bugs they have on their list. If they decide they can't invest more time in a DLC it is left as it is. Sucks, but it is what DTG does.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2022
  28. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    That's a remarkable post. What is the source of all this information about game saves, because I haven't seen it anywhere?

    Or are you just using your imagination?

    ( by the way, whether the night lighting in Riesa-Dresden is " good " is debatable )
     
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  29. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Matt explained it in one of the streams, can't remember which one but it wasn't long ago. Maybe in the august roadmap or the TSW3 Q&A, can't remember.

    I think you understand what I wanted to illustrate with the Riesa-Dresden lighting example. Of course you might like it more or less, the relevant part is that it is different to the night lighting in other DLCs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2022
  30. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'll end this conversation right here. I didn't want to discuss night lighting.

    But you clearly have much more intimate knowledge of the way DTG has been working on save game over the years than I was aware of. Until the issue raised its ugly head a couple of weeks ago, I had heard nothing from DTG about all this work they had been doing. Of course, it does rather contradict what we've been hearing in the time since they announced save game had been withdrawn.
    But you clearly have knowledge that many of us don't. Good for you, then.

    Have a pleasant evening. ;)
     
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  31. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I have no insider information. All comes from what I read on the forums or hear on the streams.

    Same to you. :D
     
  32. rkkg

    rkkg New Member

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    They talked about bringing it back in stages during the Q&A stream. From around 48m40s:

     
  33. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    But by "stages" what he meant is bringing it back on a route-by-route basis. And, yes, while it's nice that the easily fixed routes (or those which don't actually have any problems) like Sand Patch may appear quickly, it means that the worst offenders (Riesa-Dresden, Brighton Mainline) will be saveless for a very long time.
     
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  34. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    They spoke a lot more about it in the august roadmap stream. You can watch it from 2:01:01.



    https://www. youtube.com/watch?v=CGwDBIFamgQ&t=7261s (remove the space between www. and youtube and paste it in your browser).
     
  35. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Making every DLC its own game with no connection to other routes was one of the worst decisions DTG ever made.
    Now they get a mess of DLC each with the same but different issues and each needing a separate fix
    Imagine they could fix night lighting once instead of having it to fix 20 times and encountering a new issue every time...what a mess

    And it probably will end up the same way with TSW3
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2022
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  36. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    There is a workaround for this I have recently found about in another subject on this forum.
    If you want to run your own created scenario in a different season and weather conditions you have to go the regular timetable, set up the season and the weather that suits you, select the train/loco so the available list of services will be displayed, then come back to your custom service and start it.

    As for the save game, it makes sense they disable it in their new game. If it is not working 100% correctly it would result in lots of complaint tickets coming from new players about faulty save feature. I'm not sure why they just not drop fixing it in the first place though, epsecially if it requires to be done in a route-by-route routine, so will probably cost a lot of time. If they are already releasing new game without it, new players will not gonna miss it and the old players will probably get used to lack of it with time.
     
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  37. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    No this does not work for the season, only for the weather.
    Try it. Snow will melt after a minute and no autumn trees
     
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  38. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I can't agree with this. If it's left in the game then in time honoured tradition it will get either pushed down the list of priority fixes or completely overlooked, so on this occasion I'm siding with the DTG decision makers because all things considered it is in the best interest of all parties that it should be completely removed. Besides, Matt has already stated that there have been positive inroads to resolve this issue and considering the relatively low levels of complexity within three of those four featured routes in TSW 3 you have to work on the assumption that there's every chance the "case by case" approach is going to be prioritising those routes anyway.

    Of course it will mean that accessibility levels of those two new routes is somewhat compromised....but that's all the more reason for DTG to address the problem as quickly as possible.
     
  39. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    I just checked it and you're right - it works only for the weather :|
    Checked it on HRR with full snow, it melted down to zero before I even had a chance to make DB BR 101 ready to go. Well, if it would not melt so quickly I would say it is some kind of "dynamic weather" ;)
     
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  40. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    No, that´s DTG modeling authentically the dramatic climate changes in Germany. As immersive as it can get.;)
     
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  41. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Fact is the scenario planer in TSW3 still has this huge issue and it probably will never get fixed
     
  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Object oriented design anyone ;)
     
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  43. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    A much better workaround is to use console unlocker and change the date, temperature, weather with commands, but you can do that only on PC. There is simply no UI created for this in the scenario planner and probably won\t be until Scenario Planner 2.0 (possibly released with TSW4 or TSW5).
     
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  44. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    What about object-oriented design?

    Cheers
     
  45. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Actually there is no workaround for seasons and I have never seen it work even with mods. The snow will just melt away again.

    DTG should have fixed this for TSW3
     
  46. kurtosizm

    kurtosizm Well-Known Member

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    We all have high expectations, but in reality, they couldn't even sort out their webshop for a week. Quite telling. :D
     
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  47. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    With ts2.dbg.SetTemperature you can set the temperature below 0.
    With ts2.dbg.SetLocalDateTime you can set the season (I set both this and ts2.dbg.SetWorldDateTime, but just the 1st is needed to change the season in game).

    They worked fine when I last tested in game.

    EDIT - try pasting such chain of commands into console after loading the scenario, but before clicking on BEGIN, but change the time to the time of start of your scenario:
    Code:
    ts2.dbg.SetCloudiness 1|ts2.dbg.SetPrecipitation 1|ts2.dbg.SetGroundSnow 1|ts2.dbg.SetPiledSnow 1|ts2.dbg.SetWindStrength 50|ts2.dbg.SetTemperature -5|ts2.dbg.SetLocalDateTime 2022.01.01-12.00.00|ts2.dbg.SetWorldDateTime 2022.01.01-12.00.00
    I just tested it and the snow isn't melting.
     
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  48. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    It truly was. It goes beyond all common programming principles. I mean sure, it works for a while, for like two or three times. But when you have tens of DLCs, it becomes a mess. Instead of updating a component one time centrally, now you need to implement it, test it and release it for tens of routes separately, resulting in the same job take much more time and resources. Such a rookie mindset.

    And the fact that they justify this decision by saying "this way you don't break something unintentionally on a route while you update another one" shows how much they trust their own work... Sadly, this is only going to get worse and worse, with each new DLC and each new TSW re-release and every newly added feature.
     
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  49. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    DTG Alex
    DTG JD

    Why is this only possible with a hack? What is DTG preventing from enabling that in the UI?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2022
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  50. 2martens

    2martens Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. The route should exclusively include route information (aka a level). I get that trackside equipment needs to be there for safety systems to work. But all locos should technically be provided centrally and only unlocked through either loco DLCs or routes. That way you would have only one loco instance and every update to a loco would benefit automatically each place it is used in.

    The drawback of such a solution would be, however, that the core game gets bigger and bigger as you download all the locos in the background, even if you don't have access to them. Especially for older consoles, this could be a major problem. On the other hand, you would save space by not duplicating the same loco x amount of times in the game files of each addon that includes it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2022
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