Y'all Can't Be Serious

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by dxltagxmma, Sep 6, 2022.

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  1. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    I'll replace this thread with a in-depth, less emotional and more detailed analysis. Sorry about it, I wanted to quickly write something before I do that, figured I should analyse it more at first.

    My point of this thread is not to cry or rant about things without any purpose, but to show and explain why DTG cannot go on as they do now. If you do not care about it, then this thread isn't for you. This thread is more for the people who really care about this game but feel absolutely left alone by the developers, and to explain and shed some light on this "new" game.

    I haven't bought TSW 3 yet but, my boyfriend has and I have a gained a glimpse into it and holy ****, y'all cannot be serious Dovetail Games. Seriously? It's literally a copy and paste of the TSW2 Unreal Engine project. Calling that a completely new game is literally borderline, and I mean it - a scam. Y'all didn't even bother changing the DLC/plugin names! It's literally STILL CALLED TS2Prototype. All you did was remake the (finally good) GUI, but y'all haven't even bothered to touch other areas of the UI, where some of them look EXACTLY THE SAME like in TSW 2 - ok, they look decent enough, but it shows that Dovetail Games doesn't really care. "A brand new lightning system" - wow DTG, you made the brightness of the light objects finally a bit higher so you aren't in the literal void while going through a tunnel, wow DTG, you finally made a good skybox and added a LUT so it looks "new", but in reality, it's basically TSW 2 based on the same version of Unreal Engine 4 as TSW 2 was built, but you finally added some render configuration options in the GUI that we used to tweak using the Engine.ini file before. You added weather configuration options that we used to tweak using the Unlocker tool before, though you added physics related to that and more stuff, so good job DTG, unironically, I thought you would just ignore it and let it be. And I've read that they changed their content management system inside of TSW, apparently each route is a independent module (correct me if I'm wrong here), and depending on how they implemented it, and will implement it, it's not bad at all, but knowing DTG, I already expect the worst. I mean, y'all really removed the save game feature completely?! If I have read correctly, DTG is or will have to re-implement savegame functions for each route INDEPENDENTLY. Like what the ****? Have you ever heard of Interfaces DTG? Blueprint Interface | Unreal Engine 4.27 Documentation. Now I apologize if I'm wrong here, I haven't dug deeper into it yet but I'll get into it today.

    For everyone saying "you'Re juSt A hAteR!!!1111 lET uS eNJOy It!!111! dovETAIL gamES MaDe a GreAT jObb!!1111!!1 you AreN'T bETTer" - first off, I respect Dovetail Games' work on it, I truly do, but at this point, they aren't even hiding anymore that they just want money and do not care about the train community at all. That's the brutal truth. If they did, they would have added an editor, fixed ages old simple as **** bugs or glitches, changed things according to reality through community feedback, and so on, a long time ago, instead of releasing another "brand new" TSW game which is literally a copy and paste Unreal project from TSW 2. They would have released the routes as an DLC and not charge 40 to 60 Euros AGAIN.

    And I understand and see why regular railway enthusiasts do not care about it at all, or just slightly care about these issues, and to some extend, I do too, because I always try to find a way around those issues and make them disappear, that's what I did with TSW 2. Now, why do I care so much? Because of the wasted potential this game has, because the head of Dovetail Games is only caring about profit. Yeah I know a company's goals is to make profit, but times have changed, and especially gaming is community-oriented - and the railway niche is a very, very community-oriented niche. It makes me angry seeing people being ripped off constantly, abusing the deep connection of railway enthusiasts to their hobbies. Like myself, I am a student, I live in a very poor family, and I always tried to save money for the DTG DLCs because I loved the game, even with it's huge issues. But now? It's the last game I'll buy from DTG.

    With the release of TSW 3, seeing what it really is, I really have to say what I truly feel about it. Most of the people won't care, especially DTG, I expect this to be removed for hate speech or something soon, but let me make something clear - I am always available for a constructive discussion about TSW, the developers, the development, and so on. I'd really love to see this game be what it truly can be, a community-oriented, state-of-the-art train simulator. But now, it's just a half-baked attempt with some great stuff but mostly profit oriented ****.

    I'll be buying TSW 3 today and decompile it to see more stuff. I'm expecting to be disappointed even more.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  2. juliplus#6089

    juliplus#6089 Active Member

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    [Removed - JD - entirely inappropriate]
     
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  3. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    TLDR: It is a scam and DTG are money grabbing so and so's, but I am buying it anyway!
     
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  4. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, it's mostly because I am interested in the deeper parts of it, not because I really think it's worth it and will actually play it (until TSW 4 comes out)
     
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  5. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't get it, sorry! I am a rail enthusiast and a trainsim fan and think TSW3 is looking good, however, I am not buying it until a DLC I am really interested in is gets released.

    I am sure if I was a struggling student I would only spend money on something I truly thought I would enjoy.

    I am pretty sure a lot more work has gone into TSW3 than you and some others on here make out.
     
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  6. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    If you don't want to play it just get the files from your boyfriend and look at them, this whole thread looks like the work of a crank.
     
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  7. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    I may or may not care too much about it, but aside from that, from my standpoint as a fullstack developer and a IT compsci student, it's just not excuseable at this point
     
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  8. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    I should clarify my point in the post.
     
  9. DXR8002

    DXR8002 Well-Known Member

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    The avatar and spamming of 'y'all' says it all.
     
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  10. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    Ok ok, I'll rewrite my post to clarify some things and explain why and how and the technical side of things.
     
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  11. stijn.claessens

    stijn.claessens Well-Known Member

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    you left out "because i want to be mad"
     
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  12. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't have all DLCs as I have and family sharing isn't good enough for a long task like I wanna do

    I spend things on stuff that I enjoy; trains and disassembling. I never said there wasn't any work on TSW 3, but there is a clear lack of work on areas that shouldn't have a lack of work. Like I said, this thread isn't for you.
     
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  13. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Training centre is £5 + the cost of a route, which bundled with other routes gives you a discount over the usual route cost.

    TSW has never really been a standalone game, the routes are the game, just add what you like.

    I’m not interested in TSW 3 for my own reasons, but I wouldn’t call it a scam.

    Also I am enjoying how many people are spending a few minutes berating TSW 3 only to end said rant with “I’m buying TSW 3”.
     
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  14. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    You clearly didn't get my point.
     
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  15. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    Ok for the people who will get angry for the reasons I already said above, this thread is not for you. If you're fine with spending so much money for the same half-baked content, that's your money and your time, you do you. Like I said, I'm only writing this because of these actual issues, which half of the community doesn't see because they just enjoy their hobby in their own free time, which is totally fine, but I'm more of a community-focused person, and these things I've said are actual problems that people do have here, which is rooted in deeper issues with DTG itself.

    I constantly see people crying about DTG not fixing that, adding this, making mediocre content, and these are a majority of people actually. So I figured I should write a small rant thread.
     
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  16. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    I find that the least productive thing this forum does is obsess over the ins and outs of DTG as a company. If just once, one of those spending endless hours complaining about their business practices or lacklustre product had gone on to work for them and then come back with everything they claimed confirmed, it would at least be original. Instead we just get posts that insist all the best developers are not in it for the money (just lol), linking to 5 year old videos DTG have literally owned up and said were a mistake to 'prove' broken promises, and generally insisted DTG does things no one else does whilst spending almost every day comparing their practices to EA, a much more successful company, but it's bad, actually.

    This thread will go the same way all the others do, pointless and argumentative, lack of any reasonable solutions beyond "just do what I think because I know so much, and also make everything cheaper or free but higher quality and with more of it, it's easy!".
     
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  17. hypospray

    hypospray Active Member

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    Thanks, saved me a lot time reading ;)
     
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  18. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but that's not how it works. As I said, if you don't care, this thread isn't for you at all.

    Now to your points. I wasn't saying I'm a lot better than them, I never said that I can make a game like TSW in 3 days (just an exaggeration), but if you know the basics or have some knowledge with Unreal Engine development, you start to see the most basic things wrong in TSW. If no one would criticize one's work, we wouldn't get far. And the more threads about the same problem, the bigger the problem actually is. Good developers aren't just in for the money - aren't just - in for the money. Look at other game devs that had the same behavioural issues like DTG has, they didn't get far in the end, and had to change completely, for example New Mans Sky.
    Now I already said I want to write a full thread about the deeper issues with copy and paste and stuff. And I have some solutions. But why would you say it's all unreasonable and pointless? I never said they should make it free.
     
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  19. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I had a bit of a chuckle when I read "compsci student." There is a bit of a stereotype of them thinking they know better than the superiors. I mean this light-heartedly.

    Cheers
     
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  20. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    TBH you shouldn't have posted this thread now, you should have waited until you actually had something to show.

    Your posts are often on these topics and you helped find some of the commands people use in their ini files, so just come back when you have something concrete. We can see the filename is still TS2prototype, but I believe this is because you aren't supposed to change the name of the exe file once it is in the Steam system, now why they couldn't change it for TSW2 or TSW3 I don't know, but anyway it clearly isn't a new new game as all the old DLC still works.

    Feedback so far is that the lighting is a real game-changer and people are enjoying the dynamic weather in service mode, the training centre is also apparently ok and its a good thing they can separate future loco DLC from route dependencies. These things are new in TSW3.

    One theme might be that they just incorporated several mods into this version, to make them official or implemented items that had been previously modded into the game, but unless you can show the modder's code inside the official game then there is nothing remarkable to find.

    Players aren't interested in the coding *unless you find something that explains why something doesn't work properly* in which case I would have thought DTG would like to know that info and maybe even point you in the direction of their job vacancies.
     
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  21. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Whenever I see someone ranting on the forum and going all in, there's at the time, normally a post count less than 20.

    I believe DTG Alex (apologies if tagged wrong) may have already covered off the ts2prototype filing system in the last day or two as being the same throughout.

    I guess , share findings and people will read or they won't
     
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  22. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what's the appropriate name in English, so I chose comp-sci. I know some don't take it that seriously, but I can show you that I do have experience in software development. I never said I know better than everyone though, like literally, sorry that I came over like that. I certainly don't have a lot of experience in modelling and stuff, though I'm learning it currently, but if you know the basics of software development and computer / software logic, and then study the software (in this case, TSW), you'll start to see patterns of issues and incorrect things that mostly only beginners do, for example, not modularizing your software structure. I'll explain later what I mean by that, because I am very bad in explaining in text what I mean, I can do it a lot better using media.
     
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  23. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    That every DLC route is its own game (basically) is certainly an issue and always was an issue
     
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  24. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I know what you mean. There are a lot of questionable design decisions in TSW from the very beginning that even DTG over and over again state were rookie mistakes.

    Cheers
     
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  25. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    I saw the string TS2Prototype in the crash logs of users. So I'll quickly explain this, so people won't misunderstand this as some random nonsense that doesn't mean anything at all - so hear me out, when building Unreal Engine 4 games, it embeds the project's metadata, like the project name (TS2Prototype), build platform type (Win64 for most users) build type (Shipping for everyone at least, Debug, Dev). Now as you can see I am very sure it's either the same project, or a copy of the TSW2 project, but let's see what I'll find.
     
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DLC's effectively being their own game was always an issue in the tsw series. Yes DTG in the past have made some questionable design choices as well in the past but tsw 3 has some improvements such as lighting and some sound improvements. Although the ES4400AC is much louder in real life. While yes there are longer routes, apparently they were only done because they were interesting which I find odd to be honest

    Yes TSW 3 is an updated version of tsw2. It's not like they were gonna use a new game engine

    If it's possible, I'd recommend getting the game on Xbox PC Gamepass so that way you don't gotta pay for it if you may not think it is worth your cash. Not to mention you can play other games on gamepass as well
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  27. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    It's the same with TSW1/TSW2020. DTG said that it would take a lot more effort than it's worth to change the name because of how they cobbled the project together in the early days of TSW's development (circa 2014, 2015).

    Cheers
     
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  28. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    You get what you pay for.

    Could it be better?
    Yes, but the law of diminishing returns means that for significant improvement the game would be out of the financial reach of many players.
    We're railfans first, not millionaires.

    Your problem is your expectations.
    It's the best your going to get for the money.
    I've been enjoying it, so I've had my moneys worth.
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    In a forum people are allowed to say their piece so to speak even if it's something you don't agree with. Don't like it, you don't have to respond or just ignore it. I think some here tend to forget that.
     
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  30. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Dziwny jest ten świat
     
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  31. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    Omg lmfao I didn't expect that
     
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  32. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    Not being sarcastic nor malicious here, just asking: could you please explain what do you want to prove with your findings?

    From your initial post I've understand that you are quite dissapointed with TSW3 features and do not consider the changes implemented in it to be sufficient to call TSW3 a new game.
     
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  33. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    I´d go with you until the part when the incoming "patches" actually make things worse and are then forgotten. So, the DLCs (sure with a few bugs here and there) that you´ve bought and played already, become - at least partly - unplayable.

    It´s just like buying a car, after a few months the car maker comes over: "Hey, I´ve got a nice little update for you!" and you just find out that he ripped off the brake system and went away with it.

    OK, I´ve seen the promise from Matt himself to fix at least the nastiest bugs. But at this stage of my DTG experience, what can I say: "Seeing is believing." Sorry, cant´t help it.
     
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  34. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    Why is this needed? And why you write in this manner? In my opion it brings nothing and DTG isn't listning to topics in this angry way! Sorry but better is to think about youre destenation and what you ask and the way it goes! Less is more in this case!
     
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  35. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think this is fair criticism when you see the cost of other games. Flight simulator for instant between £60 and over £100 depending on the version. What annoys me is that I like to play it on my Xbox and PC, so have to pay twice. I have previously purchased SoS on PC but not on Xbox, so purchased the TSW3 deluxe on Xbox for SoS and was pleased to see it also downloaded for TSW2. I will get TSW3 for my PC as my xmas present. I will still buy the add-ons for my PC but Xbox purchases will have to wait for the next microsoft sale in 2027.
     
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  36. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    I see people always saying "yeah DTG made some big mistakes back then when they developed TSW1 they confessed it a lot on streams/etc" - well if that's the case, why didn't they fix these fundamental issues? Why do they keep building and developing on a messy base instead of rebuilding it from the ground up? Knowing Unreal Engine, it shouldn't be a huge problem, since they can easily re-use models, textures etc. We learned multiple times in classes that we shouldn't keep building on a messy plate because in the end, it can get very damn broken, not just because of issues relating to understanding the code, the structure of the project, and adding/removing stuff from the project. It's like a messy room.
     
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  37. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    First off, I do not see TSW3 as half baked content…. And second, though you say you are community minded, you can only speak for yourself in reality, if you read forums to get the feel of the community, I am afraid you are getting a greatly slanted view since almost every forum for almost every title leans toward negativity.

    Best of luck with your studies - been working the industry since the mid-eighties and reading Bulletin boards before there was an internet and the atmosphere is about the same, armchair programmers can always do it better than any commercial software house and all corporations could not care less about the customers and are money grabbing organizations…
    Best
     
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  38. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to prove anything, I only wanted to show what I've already noticed.


    I can only speak for myself, which is correct, but second I want this game to be great, I really do, and I love TSW 2, even with it's stupid issues, but if they want to make TSW 3, it should be worth it. And also, just because "corporation make money" doesn't mean that you shouldn't give a damn about the customer, especially when you are developing a niche product where communities DO matter, and just because a company develops something, doesn't mean they are 1000% better than everyone else, which I also never said I was better than DTG.

    I don't know why you guys think that I think I am 1000% better than Dovetail Games or their developers? I know it can be taken like that when I say stuff related to deeper, technical things, but seriously, it should be taken as feedback or criticism. Just because I say these things or point out flaws/issues/whatever doesn't automatically mean I think I'm supreme than everyone else. Like I can link resources to my arguments if someone really wants to.

    I know I wrote it a bit too "emotional" but holy **** guys calm down, if you don't care about the issues then ignore this thread, and don't write stupid things like "ahhhhhHhHhH why do you care" or "aHhHHhHhH thats not true i think its great", like if you don't care, that's great, but since when am I not allowed to point out these things that have been consistent since TSW 1? Why not care about something that has been an issue since it first released? I mean maybe because I only play German routes and they have been known to have more severe issues than other DLCs.

    I want this game to be great because it has tons of potential, like I don't get it, some of you rant about bugs when a buggy route comes out, and then rant when DTG is not listening to the community, but after a while, everythings good and company = good?

    I mean I am still waiting for the editor. Or the advanced scenario manager.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  39. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this is what I meant. I mean some people have a working car that has been working for a few years, and some people have had some issues with their car, and some have had their car broken after a few months. Some get their repair, some get their repair declined. That's what I currently see, or noticed with TSW. At least in my case, most German routes have still the same, annoying issues like incorrect textures, wrong PZB stuff (magnets that have incorrect parameters, magnets that don't work at all), especially the trains are just "meh" except three to four of them, with some still having huge issues after two (!) years. Rapid Transit for example still has a completely broken map, where the ground of the map is lower than the train tracks, resulting in tracks being higher than the street including it's asphalt. Or the sounds of the locos, some are ok, some are great, some are terrible and re-use sounds from other locos. And then paying 30 to 40 Euros for a DLC that's literally unfinished? I mean if you are fine with that then great, it's your money, but others would like a finished product, except if it's early access.
     
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  40. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    There is a great example for a great product for a high price but with high community focus.

    Zusi 3. It's a German train simulator that is also used in training for railway companies, but there is a Hobby version for everyone else. It costs 60€ but you get:
    - major updates including DLCs like locos, routes, etc. for free
    - user content including editors for literally everything (locos, routes, maps, etc.)
    - huge community focus and support including direct contact to the developers, fixes from the community (if no update is available), etc.


    It's available in German and in English, though the most support is only available in German, but you can see it for yourself if you want to.
    There was only a single new iteration of Zusi - in, I think, 10+ years of development! Everything you received from the first version of Zusi 3 to now you get for free. 110+ addon packs! Paket 117 - Zusi-Forum - and the community is very active even today, even though not as active as TSWs is, but enough for a German railway community.

    Now, it has it's issues too, the graphics are utterly garbage, but content-wise destroys TSW in a lot of ways. What I've learned is, that graphics don't matter if the content is garbage, for example, what brings me dynamic weather if my train gets constant emergency breaks because the PZB wasn't correctly set?

    This is, personally, I think, a prime example for a great simulator that deserves it's price tag.
     
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  41. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of here are just tired of the "My Rant" and "Open Letter to DTG" type of threads. I find it a bit self-indulgent, even if there are many points to agree on. There have been many and none of them have amounted to anything. It's effectively shouting into an empty void.

    Cheers
     
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  42. KTL_Rob Powell

    KTL_Rob Powell Well-Known Member

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    Could you perhaps reword your criticisms to be less destructive? Constructive criticism is great, it helps a Developer understand what is going wrong and perhaps even encourage fixing. Destructive criticism such as calling the work people have put countless hours of blood, sweat and tears into Garbage, helps no one.
     
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  43. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    I've read through all the walls of text and can't make sense of this extremely excited and emotional thread. Just a pointless discussion that revolves around one person who is obviously very upset.
    I can't see where this is helping anyone and I can't see any constructive aspect to it.

    All that is being brought up here are issues that have been discussed and debated a hundred times before - for ages.
    In the end, all I can say is: no one is forced to buy TSW3.
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    These aren't my thoughts, these were what I took from the original rant. I will purchase it at some point but will wait to see what the next lot of DLC looks like.
     
  45. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    Yes I know but do you really want to be the incarnation of the "yes honey" meme? There is one thing I've leaned: you can help to make a game great if you really want to, but you have to set limits on what developers can do and cannot do.

    Yeah I went a bit overboard, sorry about that, even though I didn't mean to sound harmful or destructive towards the devs. I think it just made me really angry seeing how DTG can repeatedly do x for as long as they want and get away with it while the community eats it. I mean yeah it's everyone's choice to buy TSW 3, but let's be real here, is there any competition in that area? No besides some professional simulators that are out of range for most of the people who play TSW.

    No one is forced to buy TSW 3, yes, but you can still criticize their moves, their product, their business strategies and discuss about it.
     
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  46. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    Counting it including DLCs is more than MS:FS 2020. But there you have extended community support too, and active patches.
     
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  47. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    Another person goes into my ignore list
     
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  48. dxltagxmma

    dxltagxmma Well-Known Member

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    Dude who cares if I go into your ignore list? Like if you have a problem then say it out loud instead of petty replies which you can keep private to yourself
     
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  49. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think you will find many simply enjoy the game/sim/whatever for what it is and we don't really need people to start telling us whether we should like it or not or that we are being scammed. We (or most of us) are adults in charge of our own money and can decide how we spend it. If that means DTG "gets away with it" then so be it.

    The fact that there is very little competition, I wouldn't say none, suggests that train simulators are very niche and that developing them are not as easy as some of the posts on here over the years would suggest.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  50. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    There are two types of posts/ threads that are a real turn-off.
    I. This type of rant, many of which are internally contradictory or sometimes unintelligible and often end up as trolling on and on and on, as long as some members keep feeding them.

    2. The " I'm done with TSW(X)/DTG " or " I'm through with this forum, moderator please close my account ", followed invariably, a little while later, with purchasing or more posting.

    These posters usually end up on my ignore list.

    I mean, they may be a cry for attention, but I don't have time for social welfare, I'm too busy playing with trains.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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