Bnsf Es44c4 Automatic Brake Inadequate?

Was doing u-houlac5-05 hit a 3% grade and the automatic brake just gave up completely! Went from 25mph to 50mph before hitting the emergency which stopped the train. But even then I set off again got to 10mph applied automatic brake 100% and the train rapidly started to run away again. Had to emergency brake again.

Is this some sort of simulation of brake failure or do bnsf often send there trains over the pass with inadequate brakes?

 

Did you combined the auto brake & the dynamic brake or not?

 

No dynamic brake.

Thanks.

 

I'm not an engineer, but i'm sure in real life they maximize the braking performance by combining the air & dynamic, the term is blended braking.

This video is from Run 8, but might be helpful. Cheers.

 

I'll take a look.

Thanks.

 

No worries

 

And do not forget about Banking Comm to ON what is crucial when it comes to dynamics and heavy trains, total power involved. The 15k ton ultra heavy grain trains are about up to 20 PSI reduction with dynamic blended. The first part of descend is steep as hell. Try to stay around 20 MPH. Dynamic brake force depends on speed. Memento BC has to be zero PSI, so bail off the loco. BR

 

If you attempted to go down track 3 with only the auto brake IRL, you would burn out the brakes, overspeed, and derail...

 

Is there a trick for the BC pressure? It keeps going up for me, cutting off the dynamic brake.

 

Bail off the independent brake. Hold the release button for independent brake until it reaches 0.

 

I did, but after a few seconds, the pressure starts creeping up again. Am I supposed to bail off the independent brake all the way down the incline?

 

How many psi of reduction you make on the auto brake? Normally you don't need to hold independent brake lever in bail off position all the way down the grade.

 

Trying another run, and keeping the train well under line speed works wonders. The dynamic brake is much more effective and it gives a comfortable cushion to slowly adjust the brakes. Once the pressure stabilized, the bail off was no longer needed.

So the trick is - Don't panic

 

Intermodal trains are pretty well (over)powered, "light" and EZ to handle downhill, even at higher speeds

 

I was using banking comm. It just seemed strange that the brakes were totally infective, yet the emergency brake stopped the train. Then when I started moving again 100% auto brake didn't do anything yet the independent which only brakes the lead loco I belive? Would hold my speed.

Back to the original question, is brake failure simulated in tsw3?

Also irl what happens if the dynamic fails?

 

I have never seen any malfunction when driving in TSW. Some say Class 66 has the capability to break down in TSW 3
If the dynamic fails, you are unable to continue descending like Cajon downhill. You are emergency pined to the track and waiting for rescue team then! hehe

Watch the tutorial videos carefully again - everything is OK with ES44 brakes. It is not so EZ like 'just driving from A to B'. BR o7

 

The auto brake indeed do the braking, but it take some time to take affect, especially on heavier & longer train. The braking power doesn't feel instantly from the engineer point of view.

Having done nearly 1500 miles driven on ES44C4, up & down the pass, it seems normal for me.

That's why heavier & longer trains, especially on US, have a lot of engines. If one engine have a defective dynamic brake, simply isolate the broken engine and drive normally, but the other engines must compensate the broken engine by applying more dynamic.

On an advanced & modern engines such as ES44AC & SD70ACe, i believe they can isolate the traction motor individually, so the other axle still can provide power & dynamic brake if one of the six traction motor has failed.

 

And most importantly - all the fun comes from learning to tame this seemingly simple aspect of train driving. To stop exactly when you want and where you want, to go at the speed you want. Always act in advance - you are in control of the train, not the other way around. If you have to react because too fast, because too slow - you did something wrong. HF & GL \o/

 

From my observation, there are some players treats the train auto brake like using a brake on their cars. Just make application and release, application and release, that's simply wrong and make your braking less and less effective. You must patient and let the reservoir charged up to have maximum braking performance. You can't just release your brake especially on downgrade journey, once you make an application, you can't take it off. That's why we must use the auto brake wisely.

 

Thanks. I've made decents on other routes without problems. Then I think the oil train is the longest we have had so far?

The brakes were working fine before hand. I was giving it 30-40% autobrake and it was controlling my decent, with about a 10 second delay in the application, then they just stopped doing anything.

Gonna try again later with dynamic enabled.

I was just reading about the 1996 disaster due to no dynamic braking!

 

I think one of the reasons why we struggle doing downgrade journey in Cajon at the moment, because the only offered route for journey towards San Bernardino are using 3rd track that have much steeper grade up to 3.4% at some places, and averaging 3% all the way to Sullivan's Curve where all 3 track finally rejoin together.

 

Yea that is quite steep! I just read 3 trains met a terrible fate between 89 and 96 on the pass.

 

I also didn't no application of the emergency brake automatically disables dynamic braking.

 

I’ve ran some of the heaviest services in game with no issues with both locos on the headed only and “DPU”.

For going down the steep grade from the summit, you will need both air brakes and dynamic brakes to manage speed. One other note is that on locomotives anywhere on the train, the dynamic brakes will automatically disengage if the locomotive air brakes are also braking simultaneously. To overcome this, you “bail off” by holding down the independent engine brake until the brake cylinder (BC) pressure reduces to zero. That will allow the dynamic brakes to apply on the locos and keep the air brakes applied on the cars.

So I’ll provide a rough set of instructions that will obviously slight vary for each train. Make sure you’re running below not at the speed limit as your cresting and starting down the grade. Set up your dynamics and take a minimum reduction off air and bail off. Then take another small reduction and bail off, I’d say maybe 12-15psi total which would mean brake pipe around 75-78psi. Then use your dynamics to regulate speed and remain below the speed limit so you have some leeway.

Do not, repeat do NOT, release your brakes until you are off the hill. Once you release them, it takes time for them to fully recharge car air reservoirs to full capacity and if you try to immediately apply them again you have to make a greater reduction than before just to get anything. This is called “pissing away the air”.

The small amount of air brakes will retard the train back but ultimately your dynamics will be what is fine tuning your speed. If you do have to take additional air brake applications, make small ones and bail off completely.

Good luck and safe travels.

 

Everyone has their preferred settings & style, but imho 12-15 psi of reduction is too much. As long as you keep the speed well below speed limit, let's say doing 25 mph, 8-10 pound of reduction is more than enough. Unless you driving around Saluda Pass, more than 11 psi reductions are rarely applied. Cheers.

 

The heaviest grain trains here in the game are ~1.5 HPPT where it should be 2+
I found myself going up to 20 pounds reduction @ 20 MPH with really not much space for dynamic for tiny little correction what is not really prototypical but maybe about a better challenge for the players. BR o7

 

Blended braking is only used on passenger equipment. Blended braking means when the automatic is applied - generally a 6 psi (or higher) reduction in the brakepipe, as long as the independent is not bailed and the throttle is in idle - the locomotive computer will automatically apply a proportionate amount of dynamic brake while also regulating the brake cylinder pressure to prevent the dynamic brake from slipping. Freight locomotives in the US are not equipped with blended braking as I describe, primarily because the carriers in the US prefer an engineer utilize dynamic brake to slow the train to under 3-ish mph before using the automatic where possible. This is to reduce wear and tear on brake shoes, saving money ultimately. One non-obvious reason for doing it is because older freight cars sometimes will have a malfunctioning brake controller, where making an air brake application (of even the smallest amounts) can cause a train to go into emergency braking. It's commonly referred to as a kicker, dynamiter, snap-shot, etc. Obviously, on grades like Cajon Pass, dynamic brake alone is not always sufficient to control train speed. In this case you would want to use the dynamic brake in combination with the automatic.

The best practice for this is attempt to control speed with the dynamic brake first. If the dynamic is insufficient, make a minimum reduction on the automatic (bailing the independent). Gradually make further reductions on the automatic (bailing the independent each time) until speed stabilizes. Leave the automatic applied while on the descending grade, and use the dynamic brake (slowly varying position of the handle) to regulate speed to account for subtle changes, dips, etc in the track profile. Once you reach a point where you applying only a small amount of dynamic brake, remain in dynamic brake and release the automatic - resume dynamic brake as primary means of controlling speed.

IRL - On certain trains (like autorack trains) that have cushioned underframes (ie a LOT of slack in them), it's best to make a complete stop before releasing the automatic. Some railroads actually require this, some do not. Those that do require it typically require a minimum of 10 psi reduction to be indicated on the rear prior to releasing the automatic, doing what is called a "running release" - which is releasing the automatic while in motion. They also require a full stop in the event that more than 15psi reduction is made to prevent separations in the train caused by breaking a coupler knuckle from all the in-train force. The purpose of the aforementioned is to prevent the air brakes from "sticking". Sometimes when the automatic is used, and then released, occasionally one (or a couple) of the cars will not respond to the increase in brake pipe pressure initiated from releasing the automatic, causing the brakes to be dragged. This causes a hot wheel, which defect detectors will catch and give an audible message over the radio describing what axle it was found at. Depending on how hot the wheel gets, it can require the train stop and inspect the affected wheel or to stop and make a full service brake application in attempt to release the dragging brake. This would obviously cause train delay, hence another reason why dynamic brake is prioritized for slowing and stopping a train. For prototypical sake, BNSF does not require this.

Other practices, just for info.
These are good practices on heavy, long trains. Shorter trains with less tonnage, you can be more aggressive (although IRL the railroad might not care for it).

• Notching up the throttle, wait 5-6 seconds in-between throttle increases, or until the load has stopped increasing (indicating the power is no longer increasing).
• Notching down the throttle, wait 2-3 seconds between each notch reduction.
• Wait 10 seconds when switching from Idle to Setup.
  • The manufacturers of locomotives advise this to prevent damage to the traction motors, this allows all of the positive electricity to be used and transformed into power in the positive direction before you essentially invert the magnetic field in the traction motor (by engaging dynamic brake) to create resistance. Whether or not it actually creates damage by not waiting a full ten seconds... Debatable.

Also, the automatic on the ES44C4 is indeed insufficient. A 6 psi reduction in brakepipe should slow a train pretty decently, and a 10 to 15 psi reduction should practically bring any train to a stop on relatively flat territory. Mountain grades, this is subject to variation based on the grade itself. From personal experience and playing the ES44C4 between Victorville and Barstow, the automatic brake is simply not effective enough.

 

donjgatlin95 a great explanation. Some infos are even new to me! Thanks bud, appreciate it.

 

Not a problem. I'm not going to say I know it all, but that's generally how to do it. Someone else may better explain it than I can.

 

IRL, if dynamic braking is lost, the crew would attempt to stop the train using a service-rate reduction on the automatic (non-emergency). If the automatic failed to slow or stop the train via service reductions, the crew would have no choice but to initiate an emergency brake application (ideally using the EOT/Rear emergency switch). If that failed, engineer would put the train into emergency using the automatic brake handle.

Once the train stopped via service reduction, more than likely locomotives with functional dynamic brake would be sent to assist the train. If the engineer had to stop the train with an emergency brake application, the conductor would immediately step off the locomotive and begin securing the train manually using handbrakes. The reason for this, once the engineer moves the automatic brake handle to release, all the airbrakes would begin releasing. Due to the rate it could take for the airbrakes to recharge, it's a real possibility that the brakepipe increases slowly enough to release the brakes, but not to re-apply them, causing a run-away and derailment. Airbrakes COULD begin releasing at approx 50-60 psi, but the engineer would want at least 70-75 psi to make a secondary emergency brake application. (Don't quote me on those numbers, I'm approximating). Depending on ambient temperature, it could take 20+ minutes in the cold to just see a 10 psi increase in brakepipe on the long trains we run in the US. 20 minutes is a long time for the train to run away, and derail. I've personally been on 23,000 foot long (yes, 4 miles) trains and sat for an hour waiting on the automatic to increase from just 56 psi to 75 psi when it was in the 30's outside (0-4 deg Celsius for everyone outside the US). It's dangerous working the railroad in the United States, sometimes.

Here's an example of this happening, in the most tragic way possible. It was after this event that most of the Class 1 railroads in the US amended rules, requiring handbrakes be applied (tied) if a train goes into emergency on a gradient, or in cold weather conditions.

 

Super good posting, donjgatlin!

 

That explains it then. The temperature was -3c on that particular run.

Thanks.

 

This is an investigative documentary on the above incident, if anyone wants to learn about how the accident occurred.

 

Hi donjgatlin95
I'm always wondering, IRL, does the DPU also provide automatic brake application and charging the brake? I've never found a good explanation videos on YouTube about how DPU work other than providing extra power & dynamic brake.

 

Interesting. I've seen the 89 documentary.

Thanks.

 

The only locomotive in consist that can initiate a brakepipe reduction via the automatic is the lead locomotive. When we MU (pair multiple engines together), the controlling locomotive is set with the airbrakes to LEAD and CUT-IN. All of the other locomotives in the consist have their automatic brake handle in the "Handle Off" position, and the independent brake released and are set to TRAIL and CUT-OUT. This makes one locomotive in control of the air brakes, and the rest are in a neutral position of sorts.

As far as charging the brakepipe, all locomotives in the consist have an air compressor and [as long as it is functioning], all the locomotives will work together to charge the brakepipe. This includes trains that are ran 'conventional' - with just locomotives on the head-end - and locomotives that are in distributed power. So, theoretically, the more locomotives you have running will result in faster charging of the brakepipe. Less locomotives, slower charging of the brakepipe. Distributed power locomotives are used primarily to allow longer trains to be ran, by dividing up the force being applied on the railcars throughout the train for better train handling.

The added benefit of this, you have not only locomotives on one end of the train charging the air, but locomotives from both ends and/or in the middle of the train pumping air - which supposedly helps decrease the time it takes to pump the air up in the train. Physics would say this is probably true, because there is some maximum (that I don't know) amount of charging that can be done from one end, considering the air hose is only approx 2" in diameter. Whether or not that maximum is ever reached, I'm unsure.

Random fact, the DPU locomotives act as a signal repeater for the EOT when in the middle of the train. This is helpful because the EOT uses radio waves to transmit data to the HOT (Head of Train) so the engineer can see the brakepipe pressure, and initiate emergency. Sometimes on long trains, or on un-even territory, communication is lost with the EOT and the train must reduce to 30mph. And when a DPU locomotive is on the rear of a train, the locomotive itself can be used as an EOT - meaning the actual EOT with flashing red light isn't required. It can also receive command from the head-end to initiate emergency braking when the engineer flips the Rear/EOT emergency switch.

 

I had a situation a couple of times on Sherman Hill where the brakes do just start releasing by themselves after a while (likely due to a bug) but I’ve not had that happen yet with the Cajon Pass loco. When it happened in Sherman Hill there was no alternative than to use an emergency brake application and then sit there for ten minutes while the loco charges the brakes again. I could see on the dials in the HUD when it happened but nothing like that for me yet in Cajon after several long descents.

 

On Sherman Hill, the SD70ACe/AC4400/SD40-2 all use a form of the 26L brake control stand (be it conventional, or an electronic 26L). Unless you've moved the automatic brake handle to the release position, there is no reason why the brakes should begin releasing.

Did you have the lead locomotive set to "LEAD" and "CUT-IN" in the air brake menu on the computer display? If so, I'd say yes, probably a bug.

 

Very deep explanation there.
At the moment on TSW3 Cajon Pass, the DPU engines also making reduction when we applied some application on auto brake, that means it's not prototypical then? The "Rear" pressure indicator did shows a rapid increase, and i think it isn't real thing right?

 

Yes all set up correctly and working for a long time and then the brakes just bleed off for no reason at a random time. It doesn’t always happen but has happened a couple of times. At first I thought I must be knocking my controller trigger (PS5) and releasing but it turned out that wasn’t the case. As I say it’s not happened yet on the BNSF loco.

 

Explain this further? Do you mean the DPU automatic brake handle is physically moving when you move the automatic handle on the lead locomotive? If it does, that's not prototypical. IRL, the automatic is put in the handle-off notch, and there is a metal pin that is inserted in the top of the handle to prevent it from being accidentally knocked out of handle-off. On DPU locomotives, usually the engineer has to lock the seat to prevent it from swiveling and hitting any of the controls and moving them.

Desktop control stands (like the AC4400) do not have the pin that goes into the automatic, unlike the AAR control stand that the SD70ACe has (vertically mounted controls).

Here is a pic of where the pin goes (notice it in the top of the automatic handle). Only difference here, the independent is applied - but it would be released if it was properly setup for trail mode.

 

DPU in TSW is not a true DPU but helper like behavior. Mixed behavior. A simplification. This is not a prototypical DPU like Run8 or IRL. A compromise.

All the powers copy lead loco commands. I am not sure about Ind Brake.

 

This is true. "Banking Comm" doesn't exist in the US, I suppose it was just the easier route for DTG to integrate DPU's without designing an MFD screen for them which allows fencing and manipulation of DPU's manually. I hope eventually they do properly model it, however.

 

Real DPU is different than what the game is currently doing. Essentially, what is going on now is Banking Comm that’s not only mimicking Throttle/Dynamic control but also Air Brakes on the mid and rear loco consists. Real DPU is a lot more complicated than that as units get linked via the operator screens and can be individually controlled in a great detail and received its signals via both radio data and air brake applications. And yes, real DPU does provide “support” for the air brake system.

In short, this improved Banking Comm is better than what was on previous routes like Sherman Hill but is still not exactly true DPU.

 

It does now in Cajon. This is what allows you to bail off and maintain Dynamic Brake effort on the rear. It’s an improvised solution that gets the job done IMHO.

 

All this conversation just make me want to push DTG harder to make proper DPU systems with fancing. It is a complicated systems but i'm sure there must be a way.

 

True. This is a good compromise. All the valves are set in properly for beginners. I hope someday we will receive real DPU and much more but now it is like it is - not a problem for me

 

The train in the OP is not even allowed to head down M3 (it has 134 TOB but M3 only allows up to 125 TOB in the westward direction between MP 56.6 and MP 61.5). TOB = Tons per operative brake for those that don't know. You divide the gross trailing tonnage by the number of cars with operative brakes.

 

I actually think no Westbound trains even use track 1 or 2 on decent, DTG routed every single downgrade train onto track 3.