A Question For The Experts (german Freight Trains On Lzb)

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by fabienlimp95, Sep 24, 2022.

  1. fabienlimp95

    fabienlimp95 Well-Known Member

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    With the new Route Kassel-Würzburg and the possibility to drive freight trains on it there's a question that came to my mind. Hopefully theres someone who knows how the correct procedure is.

    My case : I'm in a mixed freight train, Pulled by a 185 equipped with LZB. Let's presume the train weight is about 900t including the loco(so PZB Mode M would be okay I guess). There are some loaded Laaeers (?) Auto Wagons in my consist. Normally they are allowed to go only 100km/h if loaded (I presume that's due to the braking force (bremshundertstel) because they only got 2 axles) unloaded you can drive 120 km/h with them.

    Hers the Question: Am I Allowed to do 120km/h with loaded Laaeers when I'm under LZB ? Because in my mind, LZB can look further ahead and you don't have to be within the normal braking distances. Or am I still limited to 100km/h ?

    I'm hoping my question is understandable and someone knows how it's been done IRL.
     
  2. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

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    From a manual that I have, running under LZB is only allowed if you have more than 135% of brake percentage, train length is under 400 meters and train's top speed is above 200 km/h. This kinda rules out the possibility of driving a freight train like that so you have to just stick with PZB.

    As for the reduced speed when loaded, it's a design limitation of the wagons (or some rule related to that) and has nothing to do with braking distances so there are not really any exceptions to that.
     
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  3. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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  4. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    IRL you need two things to drive under LZB: a brh (break percentage) above 60 and a train with LZB equipment. A route like Hannover Würzburg is only efficient when every train using it uses LZB, as otherwise the block length on that route multiplies by 4. Therefore also the cargo trains have to use LZB.
     
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  5. fabienlimp95

    fabienlimp95 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks a lot ! I'll have a look in the thread and trying to get my head around as this seems to be a bit more complicated as I've expect it to be :D
     
  6. fabienlimp95

    fabienlimp95 Well-Known Member

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    So with this logic I 'have to' use Lzb on this route ?

    This would be the opposite of what Tomas9970 had said. Could it be that just two of these three points have to be the case and then you are allowed to use LZB ? I'm a little bit confused right now as I'm not really a hard based Rail Fan but want to make my drives as realistic as possible.
     
  7. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    No. You need to drive always at 100kph if the cars are loaded. It does not depend from brh, it is just the basic rule of the weigh of every wagons. The more weight of the wagons (when loaded) can create a danger situation or some problems with some wagons over a certian speed.
     
  8. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    In the simulator you can do whatever you want:cool: You can actually drive using PZB. And as explained by the developer, it would actually work like in real life, the block would extend to approx 10km, instead of 2,5km. All the trains behind you would be delayed accordingly:D

    I don’t know what the procedures are on Würzburg Kassel IRL, however, they would probably put you aside and wait for a gap, where you would not cause such a headache…

    And no, your train does not need to have brh above 135, nor does it need to drive faster then 200kph, nor is it limited to 400m for LZB to work. Not IRL and not in the simulator.
     
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  9. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    No, that is not correct. As tygerways#2596 was explaining, when there are 3 stars in the Lastengrenzraster, it means that the waggon is basically able to drive 120kph, however, its brakes are not capable when loaded. However, as we are driving under LZB, we are not bound to standard 1000m signal distance. As we are looking further ahead, the train would be allowed 120kph.
     
  10. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2022
  11. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Yes, as the brh is below 60;) however, when you put the whole train into brake setting G (and the Fahrplan), your brh for the same train is above 60 and you can run under LZB again.

    This specific case was also discussed in the famous German cargo train thread, posted above.

    In another thread it was said that when it comes to German trains, everything is complicated, and I tend to agree:D
     
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  12. Selimbaba

    Selimbaba Member

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    upload_2022-9-25_0-55-46.png

    In the map above you can see which lines are equiped with LZB (red) in Germany. The track bed has an antenna in the mittle.


    upload_2022-9-25_1-2-44.png

    On other lines you cannot use LZB.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2022
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  13. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    From that Map, these tsw routes are LZB Rapid Transit Koln Aachen SFS Hannover Kassel Wurzburg and Munchen Augsburg. To force LZB freight on HMA and SKA use 185.2 SFS Hannover Wurzburg 187 SKA & 185.5 Riesa Dresden
     
  14. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

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    Ok at least now I know where the mistake happened. I did take these informations from a Taurus manual but forgot to notice that these restrictions apply only if the driver can't put in proper train data and has to drive with some generic ones instead.

    On a second thought it does make sense as otherwise even dual ICE sets would break the 400 meter limit.
     
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  15. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    If it is a "Taurus" manual (using this protected name specifically) it should relate to Austrian regulations, not German ones, no?
    Ttbomk only the ÖBB EuroSprinters can be called "Taurus".
     

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