German Signalling Discrepancy

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by OldVern, Oct 3, 2022.

  1. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,931
    Likes Received:
    23,954
    On all TSW German routes, so far as I can tell if you pass a home signal indicating a speed restriction, the reduction doesn’t commence until you arrive at that location on the infrastructure - which could be several 100 metres beyond the signal.

    In TSC, Zusi and other German sims I’ve played in the past, the speed restriction applies at the signal itself.

    So which is correct and is this something (else) TSW has got all wrong?
     
  2. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    TSW doesn't display signal limits on the hud, only track limits.

    Cheers
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  3. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,931
    Likes Received:
    23,954
    As I suspected then… Perhaps at some point this will get changed as TSC HUD updates as you pass the signal. More sloppy coding.
     
  4. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    In theory it could be done, for example how LZB or TVM speed restrictions are shown on the HUD. It's just a matter of someone adding in the same functionality for PZB and regular signals.

    Cheers
     
  5. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,931
    Likes Received:
    23,954
    I always make a point of reducing speed by the signal anyway, but caught my eye after a couple of runs on Hamburg to Hanover in TSC recently.
     
  6. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2021
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    But this is absolutely as it is intended to work. Did you notice on SKW, when driving under LZB supervision, you actually brake until the very point the track limit is imposed. You pass the signalled speed restriction above the indicated speed and this is what LZB can do.

    Do you mean you want the speed restriction at the signal represented on the HUD, when not on LZB?
     
  7. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2021
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Ok, understood, didn’t see this comment before posting. Understood now:cool:
     
  8. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2022
    Messages:
    964
    Likes Received:
    1,934
    That the HUD is still unable to show signal limits is a real bummer since it's already TSW3
     
  9. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Yes, my original reply should have stated that signal limits are shown on the HUD but only with certain in-cab signalling systems rather than plain ol' signals. That would be more accurate.

    Cheers
     
  10. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2021
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    517
    I am actually quite happy that the game doesn't try to simulate all possible sources of speed limits (line speed, signals, safety systems, in-cab signalling, vehicles, freight car load, track quality, gradient, law, and so on), but usually limits itself to the track limit.
    To take all of those sources into account would be a very complex thing to do (and prone to a smackload of errors – just look at on how many times passenger and freight limits are mixed up in the game). On top of that, you would never be able to see where the current in-game limit is supposed to derive from, unless you get a corresponding line for each possible source on the pause screen diagram.
    So I appreciate that the game leaves this up to me and doesn't interfere.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,931
    Likes Received:
    23,954
    In TSC you also start getting penalised as soon as you pass the signal if you are exceeding the posted signalling speed limit.

    Like I said, a bit of a discrepancy…
     
  12. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2019
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    2,126
    I definitely do not miss the TSC scoring system! Although, it was always fun to run HUD less and see how big a negative number I would rack up.

    I am away from my computer at the moment and I may not recall this correctly. However, as you approach Wurzburg and LZB ends you often see a signal where the track speed signal is a white 6 but there is also a yellow 3 displayed. I have assumed that meant an upcoming 30 km/h speed restriction. However, now I’m not so sure. Any chance they could just mean that I am stopping at Wurzburg at track 3?
     
  13. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2021
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    517
    No. Your initial assumption is correct. The yellow "3" is definitely a Zs 3v signal, announcing a reduction in speed limit to 30 km/h.
    The signalling sequence is a bit surprising, though, since the signal showing the Zs 3v "3" is according to its aspect and mast sign (Mastschild) a main signal only, not a distant signal (Vorsignal). The following signal is marked as a distant signal, then, showing Vr 0 (yellow over yellow). So a definite reduction to 30 km/h never happens.
    You can rewatch the sequence here.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. aliila#7384

    aliila#7384 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2021
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    348
    Normally the reduction to 30 km/h should be here, in the middle of the platform. upload_2022-10-3_14-18-23.png
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2021
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    517
    Very good point! In my video this Zs 3 signal pad is just black, probably outranked by the Vr 0. In your run the main signal at the end of the platform wasn't showing Hp 0 then, right?
     
  16. aliila#7384

    aliila#7384 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2021
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    348
    In my run the main signal was also showing Hp 0.
     
  17. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2021
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    517
    Interesting..
     
  18. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2021
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    No, it is a bug in SKW. Würzburg is special in this regard. The 30 from the middle of the platform has to do with the short overlap (D-Weg or Durchrutschweg) after the Asig. Not every track requires it, though. In fact, also the 60 is not actually the track speed, as far as I know, many switches can be passed with 80, but only if the Asig shows Hp1. If Zs 3v shows 3, the Zs 3 must also show 3.

    Yes, the sequence is special, but properly represented for this station. The Esig is only a main signal, however, with a Zs3 v for the middle of the platform. The distant signal for the Asig follows shortly after.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  19. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2021
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    517
    This is the first time I encountered a situation in the game where a second announcement is given before the definite signal for the first announcement has been passed (except for signals changing or the second announcement overruling the first). From reading the directives, I couldn't find anything that prohibits this, so I called it "surprising". But great to hear that this actually happens at this spot.
    To safeguard the short Durchrutschweg I would have expected them to place a GPA (see RiL 483.0101A01, page 4). But there seems to be more than one way to do this.
    So the bug is that the Zs 3 pad is black in my video?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2022
  20. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2021
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Yes, this is a clear bug, in my eyes. A Zs 3v does never just vanish.

    I quickly checked; the procedure is explained in RIL 408.2451 §1a:
    upload_2022-10-3_22-12-23.png

    There are definitions for speed vs D-Weg, apparently coming from ril 819.0202, which I did not manage to get hold of, up until now. But the definition looks as follows:
    upload_2022-10-3_22-25-38.png
     
  21. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2021
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    517
    Yeah, I can totally see that. This is based on provisions in Richtlinie 301.0301 Abschnitt 5 Absatz 5 and 6.
    The only way the Zs 3 could vanish is that the signal aspects actually change between the train passes the Zs 3v and the Zs 3.
    If I am not mistaken, the (apparently incorrectly black) Zs 3 is actually protected by an active 500 Hertz magnet just before the platform (where I get the 500 Hz monitoring in the video). I just checked in the game, there is a second 500 Hertz magnet (that probably belongs to the ASig), just after the black Zs 3 pad.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2022
  22. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2021
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    I think there are actually three 500hz magnets along the platform, one for the Zs3, one for the Zugdeckungssignal and one more for the Asig. I need to check if this is actually in the game as well.

    EDIT: this is what the track on platform 4 looks like:
    1F689931-21F0-4CB7-B5F4-53F4FD6B93F4.jpeg 52A41BB8-1AAF-48A3-B319-33CE9500FAAD.jpeg 07AC3CB3-3C40-45AF-9B5D-4BA558923189.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2022
  23. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2021
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    517
    This is the Zugdeckungssignal that you are talking about, no?
    upload_2022-10-4_7-49-30.jpeg

    So maybe the 500 Hertz behind the Zs 3 pad is for the Zugdeckungssignal and there is another 500 Hertz for the ASig further along the platform.
     
  24. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2021
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    I have made it a bit clearer on the pictures above which magnets I was talking about. But, yes, this is what I meant.
     
  25. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2021
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    517
    Yup, this agrees with what I meant. The sequence for the three 500 Hertz magnets is: Zs 3 pad, Zugdeckungssignal, ASig (your pictures from top to bottom).
    But this means that in my video I get the 500 Hertz from the magnet belonging to the Zs 3 pad. Only underlines your assumption that this pad should display Zs 3, and it being black is a bug.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2022

Share This Page