Tsw3 The New Tsc?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by dangerousdave, Sep 7, 2022.

  1. Before I start let's not bring editor into this. We know it's years away!

    Tsw was ment to be a replacement for tsc but it never brought the emersion with it, well I don't think so anyway.

    But with train sim world 3 I feel its starting to catch up, or is it?
     
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  2. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    No, the main selling point of TSC is community content as well as 3rd party content.

    TSW3 has very limited 3rd part content and basically no community content (besides some mods and liveries)

    The problem with TsC was always the awful physics and many bugs of the default DTG content (as well as the many signaling bugs)

    When it comes to physics and signalling/safety systems then TSW is much better
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think tsw 3 will ever be as strong as tsc. Third party content is the main push for tsc which tsw 3 doesn't really have (apart from mods and repaints and a few third parties) due to no editor. Quality in tsc first party content has been a hit or miss in the past but recently it has gotten better. Not to mention the buttload of content tsc has. I just don't see tsw ever being on the same league as tsc in my opinion
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2022
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  4. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    TSW3 still lacks the freedom that TSC offers.

    I still can't make my own consists or route trains where I want to on TSW3.
     
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  5. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    TSC just has so many routes and train content, TSW - 3 or any further foreseeable sequel - can only ever play catch up.

    Until DTG show a bit of interest in UK routes outside the SE of England it is never going to be on a level playing field.

    I'm looking forward to playing TSW3 once the endless downloads complete, but I can't go on there and drive a Pendolino from Euston to Birmingham, a Class 86 or 87 from Preston to Carlisle or Carlisle to Glasgow, or thrash a Class 37 through the Highlands from Glasgow (well Craigendoran) to Mallaig or Inverness to Kyle Of Lochalsh. I can drive precisely two steam locos in TSW, neither of which have particularly good physics, but TSC even before you look at the collections from Bossman, Caledonia or Victory there are loads to choose from.
     
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  6. I get the no consist editor is a big problem and lack of Third party dlc. I'm hoping that dtg will make it a little easier for third parties in the near future.

    Looking at the new bakerloo timetable, is it Joe that's done this? He's done a fantastic job. A tight timetable and plenty of ai traffic on the wcml and static consists in the various yards along the way. Pretty much the same I would have done.

    In tsc obviously you could add traffic etc.. on a empty looking route but if dtg continues to populate the routes in this way then I'll be happy with this.

    As for route building not being possible. Perhaps that will come in the future.
     
  7. I don't know the numbers but 5 years into tsc, was it more or a lot more content available or round about the same as tsw?
     
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  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    If you go back to its original Rail Simulator incarnation it was a bit slow at first, but we still had a much more diverse variety of content at the end of five years, by which time it had morphed into Railworks.
     
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  9. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    How long has this TSW3 download been running already?
     
  10. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It was at least 90 minutes so far yesterday evening. About 20 minutes this morning while I was doing something else. Back up later with another 40Gb to download plus whatever else might turn up in the queue behind it. I'm on BT Broadband and normally get 8.5MB/s from Steam which seems about average. But in terms of file size it's probably more data than installing MSFS!
     
  11. Please don't tell me there's more coming? I was at 106gb this morning.
     
  12. yoshi#6469

    yoshi#6469 New Member

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  13. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Oct 13, 2022
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  14. yoshi#6469

    yoshi#6469 New Member

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    Okay thanks for verification was also looking on mobile so i couldn't see the 4 year how ever i should of looked a bit more being as it talks about ps4 not ps5 it's got so much potential sadly they don't seem to care very much.
     
  15. bittesteigensieein

    bittesteigensieein Member

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    I do not like TSC, it's outdated and still feels like the same game Railworks game I bought back in the mid 2000s. Sure there's lots of content for it, some of it good quality, but it's just like the issues MSTS had, you need 1001 addons to make it half decent.

    TSW with its timetable mode, mostly decent sound and graphics does the job. More content will come...
     
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  16. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

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    with the pathetic excuse for a scenario creator that is in TSW3, I don't know how you can even compare it to TSC, where I can marshal, run around trains, pick up, drop off etc.
    TSW3 is just drive from A to B
     
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  17. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Theres alot of people in the TSC side of the forum that would disagree with you.

    But to each their own, some people find the timetable mode more valuable than other parts of a trains sim.
     
  18. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Timetable mode is great and the graphics are reasonable but the sound leaves much to be desired. After five years still no reverb in tunnels or under bridges, close cutting sides or rattle over bridges. You just need to do a couple of runs in TSC to appreciate the sound field is much deeper and more complex than anything TSW offers.

    Of course that can be countered by the fact many traction units in TSC lack interactivity - you often can't open the doors or lower the windows.
     
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  19. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I’m gonna stick my neck out and say yes.

    TSC is well over a decade old and benefits from a tonne of available content.

    TSW’s development has been glacial but for the first time it is, at times, finally feeling like a next gen sim. It is different to TSC by nature so will never be the same but in it’s own lane it is finally getting up to speed.

    The first scenario on the RHTT add-on after the tutorial really made me think, ‘hang on a minute’. With the addition of ATS & JT to TSG, Rivet, Skyhook etc I think the next 12 months could be significant for this title.

    One thing that I think is beyond question though is that DTG can’t afford to blow this. I don’t think we’ve collectively got another ‘reset’ or ‘do-over’ in us. Every coming release needs to be at least as good as the last, and any bugs need sorting out double quick, not 18 months down the line.
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Sheesh, what sort of connection do you have? I had it downloaded in under five, and another ~8 for all the writing to disk.
     
  21. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

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    I've tried TSC and I do find some enjoyment in it. The problem for me as someone who purchased it in 2020 can be summed up in one simple question.... Where do you start?

    What I mean by this is in terms of all the great third-party content. I go to Armstrong Powerhouse or ATS and I'm greeted by a wall of requirements to play certain packs, some items are even no longer available or discontinued. It's rather overwhelming for someone new to it all and then there's the fussing about with manual updates. It's not friendly to entry level players at all. Just Trains handle it better by including some scenarios with their route packs that just use vanilla stock.

    If you don't use the third-party content, then TSC just doesn't hold a candle to TSW. It's not outright bad but it definitely shows its age.

    In the end after all the requirements and general fussing around for TSC, I just found it easier to stick to TSW only.
     
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  22. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I'll only uninstall TSC when the GEML (and associated upcoming backdated East Anglian mods) gets added to TSW3... something tells me I'll be hanging on to it for a while yet.
     
  23. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I've left Tsc, but the thing I miss most is the user created scenarios.
    They were best part of the experience so I won't say anything about the lack of an adequate edito...
     
  24. Being able to sub trains is highly missed in tsw.
     
  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    When I can drive Victorian tank engines along country branch lines, in my own time pottering about in station yards then I might consider uninstalling TSC and sticking to TSW.

    When I can drive a class 86 in the early 90's between Euston to Birmingham then I might also consider uninstalling TSC and sticking to TSW.

    When I can drive a Cravens class 105 from Manchester to Liverpool cira 1978 then I might also consider uninstalling TSC and sticking to TSW.

    When I can drive a A4 pacific between Kings Cross and York in the 1950's then I might also consider uninstalling TSC and sticking to TSW.

    etc, etc.

    TSW for me looks great and I think timetable mode is a boon. Three years ago I uninstalled TSC and thought I would never use it again. Two months later I reinstalled it and have used TSW very little in comparison since, in fact at the moment it was uninstalled. I have grown my TSC collection expedentially, but hardly buy anything for TSW.

    Spirit of Steam was the final straw, bugged AI sounds, a timetable which makes Covid timetables seem like the London Underground and no sign of the bugs being fixed or a desire to produce an DLC for it. If it was a TSC route, I could add my own using the plethora of BR LMR steam engines and carriages available.

    From what I can see TSW is going to be the domain of those who like modern shiny trains and will offer very little in terms of backdated routes. You can't even do anything about things you find annoying or unrealistic, like the 3 car class 101's on TVL.

    So unless something really appetising for me comes along, like a class 700 for BML which would make that route feel complete, or a more historic route which feels complete then it will remain uninstalled.

    So no, TSW is definately not the new TSC as far as I am concerned.
     
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  26. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    You have given voice to my worst nightmare. I'm driving a beat-up old Class 45 or maybe it's a badly weathered F9, swimming against a tide of plastic toy- like emus ( I won't use the " E " word ) and boxy red go-karts.

    As you suggest, SOS is looking like a false dawn. Rush Hour was another. We might never see a Big Boy or Challenger on the Western freight routes. The next US loco is probably an Acela, nothing new there. I think we lost a lot when the NE Corridor was abandoned for TSW2. That unique combination of freight and passenger has not been replaced or repeated.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2022
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  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes that is my fear. We were on a roll in TSW1 when NTP came out, followed by TVL and the heavy diesels pack. There was much moaning and gnashing of teeth in regards to all these old trains and routes being released, I mean all three pieces of DLC. Now those very same people have gone strangely quiet.

    Since then most routes have been post privatisation, the two exceptions are the promising but flawed SOS and the confusion that is WCL with its broken but lovely looking Sprinter and those stupid layers.

    The German routes all seem to be very modern and it seems USA train enthusiasts have mostly modern routes to enjoy too.

    A broad mix would be welcome.
     
  28. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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    It is worth saying though, for many of those things in TSC it took many many years for them all to be achievable. Counting from the release of Rail Simulator (October 2007) because effectively Railworks was a continuation of RailSimulator. The first 86 took 4 years to release (December 2011), while Birminghan Euston was nearly a whole 13 years (September 2020). The Class 105 made its appearnce (in a decent form) after 7.5 years (June 2015), Liverpool Manchester 6.5 years (Aug 2014). The A4s first appeared 5.5 Years (may 2013) and I could go on.

    Point being TSC has taken an awfully long time to build up its collection, TSC only actually really started taking off around 2011-12 when more and more 3rd parties started releasing, interestingly right around the time TSC got a major graphical overhaul. So about 4-5 years from original release TSC started getting good with more and more 3rd parties actively joining in.

    TSW is getting on 6 years now, and interestingly it is also starting to gain more 3rd parties. I find it fascinating how history repeats itself. Back in the early days of RailSimulator and Railworks the reaction to this new fangled fancy looking simulator is pretty much what TSW gets now, back then it was MSTS that people were converting slowly from. A game at that point which was 7 years old and many people had massive collections of routes and locos, basically anything they could think of.
     
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  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I accept that and I would never expect to have the plethora of routes and stock available, in TSW as we have in TSC. And by the fact it seems that TSW takes longer to create items for than TSC then we are going to be waiting longer. I am not saying that none of the above will happen but I don't see it looking that promising. The third parties (for UK content) who are on board or have just got on board, which is undoubtedly welcome, pretty much entirely produce modern content, which will tip the scales very much in that direction.

    However, TSW doesn't have an editor. The scenario planner, I am afraid to say is a shadow of what can be achieved with the TSC scenario editor, which in itself could be so much better. We are never likely to see the amazing freeware routes, unless things change, that the likes of Golden Age Developments, Steam Sounds Supreme, On Track etc produce. Or, large networks like the South Lancashire and Cheshire which is a very historic represenation of the north west in the 1970's and the the Wycombe railway which creates much of the railways of the Chilterns, Oxfordshire and Berkshire in the GWR period. You only have to look on the workshop for TSC and see routes like the Crabenmore branch to see what can be achieved.

    The heart of MSTS, of Trainz and TSC is the ability of the user to create and if they wish share anything from routes, stock, scenery objects etc, for free or for payment, it has been a community. Yes TSW does have the ability to create and share liveries but I cannot see it going beyond that in the reasonably distant future.

    The bottom line for me is that TSW is too restricted in what you can do, create and share to be the new TSC.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2022
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  30. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I've played TSC for over 2000 hours, so I certainly enjoyed it and have built up quite a collection over the years I've played it. However, since I bought a new machine, TSC started lagging and I could never make it ran smoothly again. Which pretty much shows that TSC, despite its updates (which are few), is just a very aged piece of software that has had its best time...

    Now TSC certainly has some features that TSW still doesn't have (quick drive being my favourite, but I guess the editor is the most notable one), but TSW also offers some cool new features that TSC never had (timetable mode being my favourite). Additionally, the details of routes and locos is considerably more advanced than TSCs pro range DLC.

    And well, the editor... community created content certainly has potential, but it also has its disadvantages. The steam workshop was a mess, with quality that varied from very well made, to very badly made. Third party websites were even a bigger maze, with especially routes having a long lists of depencencies that you'd need to seem to collect all over the internet. (Which is pretty much why I never even did a serious attempt getting one of the community created Dutch routes for TSC installed).

    So, in a way, I actually think not having an editor is a good thing. Everything there's available for TSW should have been through some QA (which admittedly hasn't always been DTGs strong point), and is extremely easy to install. Yes it limits the content there is available, and increases the price tag, but it also prevents the mess that TSC community content has.

    I never regretted making the switch to TSW. Although I do miss some cool routes and locos I had in TSC. I hope to see those in TSW someday again.
     
  31. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    The scenario editor is the one thing that keeps me going back to TSC and I can't see myself dropping it completely until there is something better in TSW - I have nowhere near the amount of DLC that some on here have, but it would still be a big investment to let go. However, most of my actual gameplay is in TSW now and for the bulk of that I now play on console.

    I don't even play my scenarios much, I just enjoy messing around for a bit making Newton Abbot Station (UK) look as busy as I remember it when I was a kid and imagining what it was like in steam days.

    So as long as we don't have Riviera line in the 50's and a better scenario editor, TSC still has something for me.
     
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  32. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure. I only have TSW actually, but let's get into the arguments.
    Your first question, the amount of content. As mentioned above, TSC released late 2007 in EU, early 2008 in US. By the five year mark, it had tons. I only have a fraction of it, yet applying a filter by release date on DLC...

    upload_2022-10-14_15-23-49.png
    upload_2022-10-14_15-24-15.png
    upload_2022-10-14_15-24-37.png

    2. You can see massive versatility. Even without all the revoked DLC (say, Class 37 liveries) and those I didn't pick up (steam, mostly), you can clearly see a wide coverage of areas and train types.

    3. Route length. Widely discussed. I did enjoy a few massive runs (Eldon to Revelstoke, Roseville to Reno), which is borderline insanity (although the slow change of scenery, adapting to weather is really nice), however, running about one hour with the fastest service should be a minimum. In that, TSC did usually deliver. 15 minutes with a HST or the TGV however are just sad.

    4. Simplicity of jumping in. Seriously, most of the DLC above, you learn the basic controls (there is the F4 HUD, very intuitive), you can jump into most scenarios and drive. There is some learning curve like coupling or setting your path, but there are tutorials for that.

    5. Can't ignore the editor or workshop. Especially with content mix & match, I find it extremely useful to be able to just put down my train of the month, set a few objectives and get going.

    6. Gaining traction. There is much competition and TSC did the last critical improvement in visual quality over MSTS (and of course, Steam) which enabled it, but looking at screenshots, TSW isn't much better than TSC, except for the crappiest TSC whether choices combined with not having replacement shaders (I don't).

    My personal take has always been that TSW should support picking any TSC content out of the box. Just convert it on loading or somesuch. Then I could use the new engine to play any amount of content I desire.

    However, as far as I see it, DTG is first and mostly a marketing company, not a gaming or development one. (They keep overriding weekly screenshot winners with their own advertisements.) Of course they want to create a new game and want to reinvent the wheel, create the 15th iteration of the Class 37, the 43rd ;) iteration of the HST, and the 11th of the BR 101. As long as people move on and then realise they shouldn't peek back, they won.
     
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  33. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think TSW is a successor to TSW, going down the same road, but in the other lane.

    I feel like TSW has a good sense of immersion, it's definitely close to perfecting the physics and sounds of trains (some fall short, sadly) and TSW3's improvements also bring about questions of "is TSW now truly superior?"

    Of course, Train Simulator has a greater variety, however many products (even recent ones) are low quality. 3rd Parties are the way to go to assure good quality, but then you run into a build-up of requirements.

    I like playing around with the editor on TSC, I have a project on ice with it atm. But I don't feel like TSW lacks it.

    Train Sim World needs to rediscover it's meaning of "world" and give us more freedoms within the game, let us explore stations in their entirety, give us access to vantage points to watch trains go by (in the same way as Meißen has one on DRA), make Livery and Scenario designers more functional, and I think TSW has TSC matched in all aspects.
     
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  34. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    If we take TSW's release as 2018 (18 months after Heavy Haul) and TSC's as 2009 (when Railworks with it's first major overhaul of 2007's Kuju Train Simulator had it's Steam release ) we're talking about 4 years for each as a fair comparison.
    4 years in with TSC there was so much more stock, so many more routes and lots of hobbyists working on new things. Sept 2013 was when I started Victory Works, but I'd been part of a forum of creators for ~3 years before that where all kinds of creative things went on. As a quick example, RW didn't have working crossing gates at the time - so AndiS and I teamed up and made them and put them on UKTS for everyone.
    But back in 2009 I wanted more GWR stock for RW, so I learnt to make it. I wanted KevMT's prairie to have a proper cab (remember when we aliased everything to the Black 5 cab!), so I learnt to make it. I wanted a Q1, so I made it. I wanted TSC to have a realistic steam engine (jealousy of the excellent plastic boxes that were being made at the time) so I leant script and made the 56xx.
    I might have moved over to payware creation (meaning I could make 4 locos per year instead of 1 every 3 years!) but I cut my teeth as a hobbyist along with other super talented creators using the tools that came with the game.
    The MSTS "lobbyists" always hated on TSC for the lack of content but that argument became weaker and weaker as we built and built. Being able to create content was the lifeblood of TSC and I'm devastated that TSW shows no signs of ever having anything beyond basic repaints.
    If you want to "drive trains" and you don't care what or when then TSW is likely the better option (I love being able to walk about, I love timetable mode), but if you have a specific area of interest/era/location then TSW at best might give you a tiny insight into it. More than likely it's got nothing for you. And if steam is your era, well as we've seen SoS is a fire and forget mess and no amount of walking around, 24 hour timetables or pretty scenery is going to give you the 1950's Riviera Line with a dozen locos and dozens of items of authentic rolling stock.

    On a side note as no doubt I'll be accused of bias, I was on the SoS hype train. I'd not visited this forum for a couple of years and then I started coming her regularly once SoS was announced. I bought a basic TSW2 pack (I didn't own the game before) so I was all ready to go.
    I didn't expect to ditch TSC but I was genuinely excited for steam in TSW. What's the expression? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.... :(
     
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  35. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid I don't see the logic here. "There is bad community created content, so therefore there should be no community created content"?
     
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  36. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    He says there are some disadvantages, i.e. it isn't all good news, which is true. For every decent community created content there are several which are poor. You only have to look through the liveries on the TSW CC. It isn't about it not being a thing, but in its absence people think it will be a panacea for all their problems.

    The list of dependencies part is true too, at least with TSW you don't get something you can't play, especially now the routes and locos have been separated.

    Anyway, I think there are still plenty of items on TSC that I would love to see on TSW, including the newest route plus the one which goes from France into Germany plus some of the content from countries not represented at all in TSW, UK locos not in the game as well as the ECML and WCML.

    If I had unlimited space and money I would probably play both but I don't so I am left hoping that TSW will eventually get some level of depth and breadth to take it close to TSC. I definitely like the ability to feel like I am immersed in the world though in TSW and enjoy pressing all the buttons and opening all the doors plus exploring on foot.
     
  37. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    You won't get something you can't play if you stick to official DLC with TSC too...
     
  38. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    It does keep things cleaner, easier to keep an overview. And perhaps (but this may be just wishful thinking) the lack of any methods to publish stuff outside of DTG, means it'll more likely teams co-operate as third-parties to publish stuff through DTG (with the benefits of having QA and automatic installation)

    Not entirely true. Buying the Santa Fe F7 without owning Cajon Pass still gives you very few options to use your F7. At least TSC had a Quick Drive mode and a consist builder. That makes using any train on any route, even from third-party websites, much easier.

    However, the dependencies of community created routes, that can be a real pain...
    Which shows a real short-coming of community development groups. They can sure make beautiful things, but they usually don't make things easy for the average user.

    And, additionally, TSW is available on PC as well as consoles. While I personally have no experience with using consoles whatsoever, I do understand that 'modding' your game or installing 'unofficial' content is much harder, if not impossible. Which is another good reason for finding alternatives.
     
  39. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! I was reading this topic like, "guys you are missing something". What you want from TSW is not possible. I know every platform wants to take credit and claim TSW belongs to them but I would suggest buying multiple copies of the game so consoles are outnumbered. Consoles have limits like no easy modding. Console games also don't last for ages, you really have to have one of the best games to live as long as the console generation does.

    Not saying that TSW is a console game, I wish it was a pure console game. But the sales come for a big part from consoles. So TSW has to obey by the limits of consoles to be making money. Extra development time for PC's like adding modding, third parties is not sustainable when most of your cash does not come from that platform.

    TSW can't be more like TSC, I think you would want TSC to be more like TSW minus the consoles. A Train Simulator Rebooted kind a thing, I think that would also mean the price of that Train Simulator Rebooted kinda thing will rise enormously.
     
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