PC The Sand Patch Grade Derail Thread

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Calidore266, Jun 26, 2022.

  1. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    Recent updates seem to have done SPG dirty, with a couple of showstopping bugs introduced.

    * Multiple people are complaining about derailments while going eastbound toward Cumberland. Here's one thread.
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/powering-america-part-2.55856/

    This is probably the most complex bug to find and fix, so I'm creating this thread as a call for help. If this has happened to you (or if you feel like trying a run to help out), please comment with as much detail as possible--journey/scenario or service + loco, location it happened, speed, braking status, whatever you can think of. It all matters. Also, please put the same in a support ticket.

    In addition to the derailments, there's a couple that should be easy:

    * In the C40-8W tutorial, the fuel fails to flow when the hose is attached and the valve turned, preventing the tutorial from being completed. This worked for me on May 22, but I've confirmed that it doesn't now.
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/csx-c40-8w-introduction-scenario-fueilling.55463/

    * This one may be preexisting: The C40-8W's Fully Serviced achievement (complete five services in the C40) is not registering any of the eight services in Journey mode chapters 3 & 4. The four services in chapter 2 do register (and chapter 1 is tutorial plus scenarios so n/a). I was able to complete it with a random short service from the timetable.
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/c40-8w-fully-serviced-achievent-not-working.54801/

    TIA for any assistance in getting the derailment cause found and fixed!
     
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  2. DukeSD

    DukeSD New Member

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    Yes, happens quite often heading towards Cumberland, can just be two AC4400Ws at the head of the train and it will just happen, usually downhill between Sand Patch Summit and Hyndman, usually always involves Dynamic Braking.
     
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  3. hefy_jefy

    hefy_jefy New Member

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    Yep happens almost every time the AC4400 is present, either alone, dual, or with a different locomotive. Has nothing to do with speed. If you start at the top of the hill and just let the train runaway it will eventually derail at a speed of around 100mph! It IS related to the dynamic brake, doesn't happen if you just use the auto brake.
     
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It seems that derailment issues across TSW - notably 8F freight on SoS and the auto train on MSB - are related to a recent core change that was made to buffer physics (in US trains, the "buffers" are built into the couplers). Basically, they decompress with way too much force, and so braking from the front end more than a tiny amount (and dynamic brakes slow the loco only, remember) causes an oscillation wave that will eventually tip one or more cars over, in circumstances where in the past one would only notice the "shove" as the consist crammed into the back of the engine.
     
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  5. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Happened to me twice now when doing 'Powering America part 2'. Make it to Sanpatch, no worries, get through tunnel and start down hill using dynamic brakes and just after reaching 30 MPH area, spontaneous derailment. Different place each time, but both times as I say, just after entering 30 MPH zone. No auto brake as at this stage dynamic at notch 3/4 is enough to hold train after slowing to 20 MPH for permanent way gang and points switching back to correct track. Most frustrating. Saw a couple of comments on the internet stating this only started after latest update. Don't know if this helps, but there's my money's worth.
     
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  6. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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  7. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Hey folks - think we chatted about this in the Roadmap stream last week - it looks like it's as the result of the physics change we implemented with Spirit of Steam. We have something we're working on to improve the experience on other routes which may be experiencing issues. Annoyingly with fixes like this, the update hits all routes, so there was likely to be some impact in other places.



    29:33 timestamp.
     
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  8. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks very much for the follow-up, DTG JD .
     
  9. DukeSD

    DukeSD New Member

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    Hi JD, I'm glad you all see it, that's a big part to getting it sorted.
     
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  10. Bradmac

    Bradmac Member

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    This bug is still an issue, exactly as described above. ANY use of dynamic brakes descending from Sand Patch near Mance in an AC4400 will result in a derail.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  11. Mephrite

    Mephrite Active Member

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    Same problem still exist in Rapid Transit.

    And you expect us to buy TSW3...
     
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  12. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Another bug is on MSB scenario "Fuel Exchange". Get the consist to Lohr and uncouple last 5 wagons, then on the way to hand on to next driver, game crashes. DTG response to my ticket pointing this out and directing them to the forums where others have listed same bug? 'Check your system, reload game, check integrity of files, send us copies of crash files etc. etc.. All trying to prove it's not a bug but my fault. Service or not?
     
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  13. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    They do! Remarkable, ain't it? :D
     
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  14. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Hey - I believe this is mentioned as one of the fixes coming with the next patch: https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-sim-world/articles/article/player-update-tsw3-week-2

    Please let us know if you're still having issues after that update (due this week).
     
  15. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    Same issue with Tharandter Rampe, trying to get a autorack train down the hill. Basically everytime you bunch a large train up, you are at the mercy of the buffers glitching and sending your train flying.
    It's insane how long this is going on, and how little priority it looks to have.
     
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  16. Bradmac

    Bradmac Member

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    I have just successfully negotiated the Sand Patch scenario "Powering America Part 2" on TSW2 without any derailments on the AC4400CW. You can not use dynamic brake. You will have to ride the train brakes down the hill the whole way. To control your speed, you need to apply a full application of the automatic brake (100%) and feather the independent loco brake on and off. Sounds ridiculous but it works.
     
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  17. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    That may well be, but all you say is for TSW3 not TSW2. These are problems that have been around for months now and we were told a fix was coming . We had a fix after SOS, but that did NOT fix SPG and as I have told support in a separate ticket the MSB fuel exchange bug is happening in TSW2. Some of us (believe it or not), do not have TSW3, do not want TSW3 and will probably not purchase TSW3. I have stated here in the forums in other places as well as on the FB page that if, to have our version of the game fixed, we have to purchase TSW3, then again, a very poor effort by DTG in my opinion.
    Even your reply above was given in July 2022 (before TSW3 even hit the boards), and yet here we are in September and still the same problems. With everyone's attention now moved to TSW3 and the same bugs as ever we had.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2022
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  18. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    “Who am I,” asked the Bunyip. “What am I doing here?” “Please tell me,” begged the Bunyip,” for my purpose isn’t clear.”
    “No answer!” came the stern reply; “You’ll get no help from me!” Poor Bunyip, he began to cry, “Doesn’t anyone know me?”
    Poem by Francis King "The Bunyip"
     
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  19. murphious#7583

    murphious#7583 New Member

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    I'm having an irritating issue trying to finish Clear Cut. Going to uncouple the Units to be refueled from the consist and get a message "Derailed..." But it wasn't moving yet hahahaha....:|
     
  20. I had a derailment just after going over the 'hill' of Sand Patch. Maybe 2000 metres later. Coming from the mines end heading towards the town.

    I still enjoyed it!! TSW3 is awesome!
     
  21. traingang

    traingang New Member

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    This happened to me, however I imagine it isn't actually a bug, but the physics of the real world manifesting themselves in the game. I was only using dynamic brakes when I derailed, on Notch 8. No auto brakes. Keep in mind the dynamic brakes are simply the trains engine braking, they just add resistance to the wheels of the locomotive. The auto brakes actually brake the consist, as in the railcars others than the locomotive. So imagine having an entire train of filled coal cars with no active brakes on them, pushing against two locomotives stopping them only with the resistance of their own traction wheels. The amount of force pushing against them was bound to derail the train. I guess I learned my lesson the hard way. I'm curious what the pushing force was at the time. I was checking when trying to speed up at those red lights, and 140 or above pulling usually led to wheel slippage.
     
  22. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    That may be for your game, but I have derailed at Mance with the train brake on initial, dynamics on notch 3/4 and loco brake bailed off. Exactly as the physics would suggest is the way to do it. Only doing 20 to 23 MPH, so no speeding and still room to increase train brakes, bail off loco brake and descend the grade safely.
     
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  23. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    This worked fine until a patch in May to fix a related problem on Spirit of Steam introduced this issue all over elsewhere in the game. It's definitely a bug and acknowledged as such by DTG, who have been working on fixing it.
     
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  24. Thanks for the info!
     
  25. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I've got a build of TSW3 with a candidate fix for either some or all derailments (not sure, there are multiple causes) - am I right in thinking "Powering America Part 2" is a fair test? How likely is it to derail? If I make it down ok are we good - or is it like a 30% or what kind of fail rate?

    Is there an option which is going to be quicker e.g. starting at summit and going straight down?

    Any other options you'd like me to test - ping them here and i'll get them infront of beta team and myself to run.

    Matt.
     
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  26. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Matt, not sure about starting at the top, but I can assure you that 'Powering America, part 2', is in my opinion, guaranteed to derail at, or near Mance after going past the MOW workers at the tunnel. Can't tell if this will fix everything as I have given up with this route and Peninsula Corridor. Will any fix be applicable to us poor, suffering fools with TSW2 as well?
     
  27. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    So first test seems ok at least - I just ran powering america part 2 up until the entry of Cumberland Terminal, using a mix of braking including excessive braking and light braking (one might say it was testing, others might say my concentration was lacking) but zero problems coming down.

    Will look at some more tests but thought i'd report some success at least.

    Matt.
     
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  28. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    Great news, very happy to hear progress!
     
  29. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I get that some, perhaps many, players are having derail problems on SPG.

    Just to balance things out, I just drove the route end- to- end both ways without any issues. I was driving a manifest west with the AC4400CW (3) and 2 helpers ( released at Mance) in a thunderstorm and another manifest east with similar traction.

    Dynamic and automatic brake combos worked perfectly.

    This route is still my favorite 5 years on and I drive it a lot. I always have to split my runs into 2 or 3 sessions, but the save game has never let me down on SPG.

    ( I do wish the rain wasn't so darned loud in the cab, though.)

    ( And that pesky red light at Rockwood Main almost nailed me -- again. ).;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2022
  30. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Is this a global fix or just for SPG? Having similar issues with HSC heading Eastbound if applying any sort of break at the curve itself?
     
  31. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    It's a series of global fixes for derailment problems.

    Let me know what service/scenario to try and i'll run it here.

    Matt.
     
  32. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    I really do hope we will have a fix! Thanks for the efforts of all concerned. Can a fix be for TSW2 as well?
    These forums are also full of reports about Peninsula Corridor crashing on southbound services. Doesn't seem to matter which loco in my experience see here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/peninsula-corridor-keeps-crashing.45046/#post-555606 Or, just type in Peninsula Corridor.
    Now, if every other route I own runs well, I fail to see why I should do as DTG Alex suggests and uninstall/reinstall the game etc. etc..
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2022
  33. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Matt, the last derailment was 10K Chicago - Allentown @ 13:51 - I was in journey so whatever the weather/month setting that is in.
     
  34. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    If the fix is good we are going to see if it can be backported to TSW2 yes, but as always no promises until it's done.

    Matt.
     
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  35. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Just to be clear - this fix is for derailments. I've not looked into the crash reports, i'll find out where they are at tomorrow.

    Matt.
     
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  36. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, thank you, thank you.:love:
     
  37. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    upload_2022-10-25_1-5-1.png

    Finished 10K no problem at all.

    Matt.
     
  38. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I understand the issue, but I'm driving up and down the eastern slope without any problems. Just passed Ellerslie heading towards Cumberland Receiving. Had to stop to eat dinner.

    Should I be concerned that a patch will actually create problems for me and others who are not having derailments?

    I might mention that, when driving down from Sand Patch towards Hyndman, I'm using 90-95% dynamic braking, almost no automatic brake usage.
    Dare I suggest that maybe some players are not using the brakes correctly, perhaps?
     
  39. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I've been using a mix of auto brake and dynamic (min set on the auto, balance with the dynamics) - there may well be a pattern of usage that makes it more likely to happen im sure - however I gotta admit, I would have expected front loading the brakes heavily on the dynamics to make it worse if anything since using a min set spreads the brake force out through the train.

    Any change could potentially have negative effects, this is why i'm here at 1.30am testing :) I'm super paranoid :)

    Matt.
     
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  40. Bradmac

    Bradmac Member

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    If you can succeed with any dynamic brake, I think you may have fixed it (fingers crossed) :)
     
  41. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    I just did a run on PA Pt2 last night (Australian time, so ~12 hours ago) whereby I used both auto-brake (mostly just a Min Reduction set almost the whole time) and dynamics, and made it all the way to the bottom albeit in a ring-clenching, sweat-pouring 3 hours. Speed never got above 20mph on the downslope, and I tried where possible to ease back on dynamics when approaching the tighter bends and do as much braking on straight sections where possible, but there were still several situations when the train "bucked" significantly, and I'm fairly confident that if I was going a little faster or had more dynamics on at those points it would have caused a derail.
     
  42. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    If you get the opportunity, try it again but this time try and drive less restrained - an occasional bit of speeding (just a few mph) lay on the dynamics harder, do some more severe deceleration etc and see how it is - try and line up a good test that fails and then repeat it with the fix. In my test I wasn't particularly gentle with the train, I was only half paying attention to it while doing other things and that kinda describes my journey tbh, minor speeding, loads of dynamics occasionally, mix of air and dyno, sometimes just dyno and lots of it, etc.

    I didn't see any worrying lurches either, the odd minor bounce but nothing i'd call significant "bucking" - so hopefully this is a good sign too.

    Matt.
     
  43. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    Good thing I saved when stopped at the Sand Patch tunnel crossover...

    I'll try again tonight, there are a couple of spots I'm sure would be prime derail candidates.

    And the lurches I had were significant, you'd see the accelerometer spike suddenly and the view jerk as if a big spring had suddenly let go and then snapped back.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2022
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  44. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    Re-loaded and re-ran, this time staying around the 35mph mark and Min Reduction on the auto brake, needed pretty much full dynamics to hold speed and derailed just after the crossing in the Mance horseshoe curve (where I derailed the very first time).
     
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  45. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    Tried to replicate this again after today's patch, and no problems. First trip through Mance at 35mph and full dynamics was smooth sailing, as was hitting the curve at the bottom of the Glencoe straightaway at 50mph as well as the tighter bend around Fairhope (which I also sailed in to with no brakes applied and slammed into Notch 8 dynamics right at the bend to maximise compression).

    If anything, I noticed that the locos seemed "looser" - the camera was moving around a bit more than usual (possibly because I was going much faster) but it was smoother with no real jerks (apart from the expected ones due to slack compression/extension on initial brake application) - I'm wondering if one of the big fixes was a reduction in coupling stiffness...
     
  46. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    No change to couplings just a physics issue found with track that was sporadically causing maths badness in physics I think.
     
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  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Cutbank Syndrome! Still have nightmares, remember first time I ran my West Highland route and launched a train 500 feet in the air on the points at Corrour...
     
  48. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    Someone installed a rail upside down?
     
  49. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    For certain parts of the rail in certain conditions the tangent normal was inverted.

    Or words roughly to that effect.

    I think

    :)

    Matt
     
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  50. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As recorded in the other thread, I finished Powering ... Part 2 without issue. That included some moderate speeding and rough handling. I'll stay on SPG for the next couple of days and do a bit more testing. In the slightly better lighting of TSW3 the route looks really nice especially the section through the hills.

    As an abstract there was an issue finishing the scenario where the instruction was to turn headlights off. That didn't work and the next step only triggered when I turned it to Bright/Aux.
     

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