Sounds Updates Dead In The Water Now?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by martschuffing, Oct 26, 2022.

  1. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    After much disappointment at the release of TSW3 and the lack of good realistic ambient sounds in the sim has this all but been forgotten by DtG now? Were they hoping it would just die away with a tiny burp and that we hadn't noticed?
    Or is there still a glimmer of hope?
     
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  2. nhilsubsolenovum

    nhilsubsolenovum Active Member

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    The levels are completely out such as really loud windscreen wipers and AWS. I cannot seem to be able to adjust these manually to turn them down. I simply don't believe they really see it as a problem.
     
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  3. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Older routes probably won't get updated. Maybe we'll see better sounds moving forward but who knows. But one thing for sure is that you won't get the realistic train sounds such as rumbling over the bridges, etc since that's never been in tsw
     
  4. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The lack of reverb in tunnels etc. is particularly apparent on routes like SKW where you are spending half your time under the structures.
     
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  5. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Yea, tsg talked about it a long while ago that reverb was like removed or something because it was causing other audio issues and that it's not easy to implement at all. It was there in tsw2020 but got removed once tsw2 came out.
     
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  6. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    They talked so much about sound leading up to TSW3...and what did we get? Sound design more comparable to a alpha version of a game
     
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  7. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I think this falls in the category that customers want to hear, literally in this case, solutions not problems. Another instance perhaps where UE was not the best choice for a train sim.
     
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  8. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    It's a fun soundbite, but careful what you wish for.

    What you've just asked for is no feedback until we have solutions -which leads to "omg dtg have gone silent" (yes, we have no solutions to report and you said ....).

    My preference is to keep players updated with the best knowledge we have, if you aren't interested until its a solution then simply ignore. I don't like the idea of going silent until it's fixed one little bit.

    There are no ideal engines for making a train sim tbh, but of the bunch UE was the best of them. Every engine excels in some areas and is weaker in others - but - for what its worth - I don't think all these problems are UE problems, they are just things the audio team need to get on top of.

    Matt.
     
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  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Appreciate the update Matt, at least we know reverb and bridge clatter is not forgotten. Racking my brains whether you actually get this in Derail Valley or DRS which are of course Unity games. Run 8 has the tunnel reverb but now I think about it nothing over bridges or crossing plates and the ambient track sound is a bit dead compared to TSW.

    Hopefully good things to come.
     
  10. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I think at this point, sound is the number one thing I would like addressed for me. The sounds have to be as realistic as possible and also set at the appropriate levels both inside and outside and with windows opened and closed. I really hope it is being given the attention it deserves, because the sound really does make or break a simulation game.
     
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  11. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Not the crashes and derails then? :) or the red lights? :)

    Everyone's got different top priorities based on what's bugging them at the time, which is totally fine - but to be clear, we're focusing on actual game breakers first. and as much as audio breaks the immersion it doesnt actually break the game quite as badly as derailing does :)

    Matt.
     
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  12. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's always nice to get a reply Matt even if it isn't the one hoped for....yet! But as long as we know that we aren't being left out in the cold then a glimmer of hope it is then. I agree that it isn't a game-breaker but is an immersion-breaker.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2022
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  13. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, while flawless sounds and lighting would be nice things to have, I'll vote for working gameplay over atmosphere every time.
     
  14. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    That's always the goal for audio developers in a train simulator. But the reality tells a different story unfortunately. If we would measure the doability of a specific train/loco dependent on how possible the accurate audio could be, more than half of the content would not exists in the game, and not much more content would get in the game. Recording original audio from a train, expecially a loco, is often not possible or just in a way that is not practical and gains mostly unusable recordings. Audio developers have to act like sorcerers quite often to get it any near to what it sounds in real. So the results we have now, are quite good in respect to the fact that it is a real challenge to get to original sound. And it's often NOT just a question of money to invest into the effort of getting audio. It's mostly just impossible to get it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2022
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  15. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    It’s a very fair point you make. I think we [players] can expect a little too much a lot of the time. It’s easy to forget how hard it is to capture the real audio and it’s always a treat when this is the case. So much of a treat it once again sets our expectations a little high.

    Hopefully balancing the audio is a lot easier. I keep coming back to it, but the volume of the audio can be too low/too high on a lot of routes - everywhere from voiceovers, through to alarm, engine, ambient and wiper sounds.

    When an FP40PH cab with the windows open sounds quieter than my diesel engine Ford Kuga (maybe a slight exaggeration), something is not quite right.
     
  16. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    But surely it is not beyond the wit of man to accurately obtain real recordings of bridges under or over tunnels or reflective sounds from bridge parapets and buildings walls etc. I am not however saying it would be easy to implement them in UE but UE themselves are telling us how wonderful their audio engine is and what it is capable of.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
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  17. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but on the other hand, the things you've listed are not mutually exclusive either.
     
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  18. uvm0902

    uvm0902 Well-Known Member

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    I am most upset by the sounds when you turn on the external camera "2". There is no sense of train movement. There are no correct sounds of the locomotive machines and rolling sounds on the rail track. Why did they muffle external sounds with the transition to TSW2?
     
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  19. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    The audio for most trains could easily be vastly improved as shown by modders.
    Nobody can tell me they have more money and connections then DTG. And those modders are not paid sound engineers.

    And let's not even talk about the bad mixing (bird sounds from outside while in the cab and going 200 omg) and the lack of reverb.
    All the clipping and cutting out...
    Sound is sadly a mess currently in TSW.
    No need to sugger coat that
     
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  20. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Modders can go out and record trains and all the different sounds and then spend time mixing all the sounds together. Dtg is unable to go out every single time to record sounds. Also, getting sounds and actually implementing them can be a challenge. Matt has said he wants audio to be better. Tsg has also talked about the challenges of getting the sounds to be realistic and getting the recordings earlier in this post. It would be real nice to be able to work with modders to improve sounds but at the same time, their sounds could be copyrighted, putting dtg at risk basically. Working with modders and having more partners for sounds would be a dream come true. I can't play tsw without mods. And even with mods, not all the sounds are able to be placed due to limitations
     
  21. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    What?
    Your daily reminder that DTG is not a 3 guys in their garage company but a multi million dollar company with many dozens of employees. So yes, they absolutely would be able to do that ;)
     
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  22. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Dtg can't go fly out every single day just to record sounds. It's just too expensive and time consuming. Imagine flying out to the us every single day. Also realize some train operating companies don't allow dtg to go record their sounds whether it's safety issues or just that they can't interrupt normal services just to let dtg record sounds. Just cuz they have a lot of employees doesn't mean they are able to do that
     
  23. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    You dont need to fly, you could hire or contract swomeone to record the sounds. Also, many modders work by youtube videos and still create very good results.
     
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  24. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    And how long is it that customers have been waiting for decent sound? You don't like going silent? Seems to me DTG is very good at doing just that. If the audio department is not up to it then use some people that are, like AP for instance or would that eat into your profits too much for a multi million Pound company?

    DTG could easily do more on the sound front. Getting drivers of said trains to do the recordings for you is one option which you have used in the past.
     
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  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Oh, God, not this again.

    When AP does a sound mix for Train Sim World with Unreal's audio challenges, THEN I will believe they are the Second Coming of Elvis. Doing a great job with TSC audio proves little.
     
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  26. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Copyright protections. Dtg is not going to risk it and YouTube videos don't really have good quality that dtg can use unfortunately
     
  27. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Its unacceptable in this day and age to offer such poor sounds and mixing, as what TSW still often does.

    Why am I still hearing birds which are miles away whilst the window is CLOSED over the traction sounds of my own train? Clearly something is off, whether its the mixing itself or the mixing of the sound engineers' ears.
     
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  28. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    What I have never understood is the inconsistency DTG has in implementing sounds in TSW. A clear example would be on the one hand the 314, which has some magnificent chirping sounds in curves, and on the other hand the 313 which, despite being built later, they didn't implement these sounds. It is not that one is louder or more audible than the other, it is that one has it and the other does not. What is the point of this?

    It's frustrating to see that they don't always do a good job when they've definitely shown that they can do a much better job. We are not talking about sounds of a specific train or locomotive that they have had to go and record but generic and common sounds in most trains in the world.

    Another example, the new RHTT carriages have some great sounds, it's a delight to hear those squeaks, very immersive, great job! I think it's quite understandable that if on the next route that DTG makes the quality standard is inferior I will feel frustrated, because they have already shown me that they have the sounds and the means to do it well.

    On second thoughts, I don't need to wait that long; the new German Habbiins wagons have no sound at all. And they both went on sale on the same day. Desperate
     
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  29. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Not that this information offers a complete explanation, but perhaps it can provide some insight: the Class 313 was actually built before the 314 (the 314 was built using the 313 as a base). It was just delayed for a long time due to technical issues with timetabling on ECW.

    Cheers
     
  30. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect... I really hate the "audio isn't a game breaking bug so it gets lower prioritization" statement. This is the reason audio in the entire TSW franchise is so messed up. I've owned TSW for 3.5 years, and absolutely nothing has changed in this regard - even with the promise that audio was going to get better attention (I think that was in early 2021 or so) - despite now being on the third generation of the game. You literally have a guy that's recording certain US freight train horns for you and the most recent one for the ES44 is so quiet and stripped, lacking any depth, its quite sad. There are sounds in the game (like rain, wipers, buttons, safety systems) that are way too loud and out of balance with the rest of the virtual world. Heck, even in Pennisula Corridor, the F40PH essentially requires ear plugs yet the baby bullet needs an amplifier? And let's not forget, if you really cared about audio, you wouldn't have let a third party team take sounds from your library for the wrong locomotive (especially such an old, reported-as-bugged, soundset) and then release it. Reverb? Run8, built with C# using SharpDX on a custom, much more primitive game engine, can do it, yet apparently it will take the entirety of DTG to make UE do it. Something's fishy, especially with this being what, 8 years, of you using UE4

    Most of these crashing/derailing/etc. fixes that you're working on have nothing to do with the audio team, so what are they doing? Unless management is micromanaging them or they multi-task in other areas, they should be able to work on improving sound within the game, whether that's reworking to improve quality, balancing sound levels, or just simply getting better training and experience with UE4 and audio so good sound sources get properly balanced in the world and don't end up sounding like it belongs in an 8-bit game from the 90s (yeah, that last one is a little harsh, but its the truth). Sure, some things may require the engineering team to implement, but there's enough wrong with the current game (especially post TSW2) that should be keeping the audio team occupied.

    Sorry not sorry for the rant, but things like this is why I still don't own TSW3 and my time spent in TSW2 is minimal now.
     
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  31. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, TSW is actually the worst sound experience i ever had in a video game...
    - Very Bad mixing that I personally think is very amateurish

    (driving 200 kmh in an ICE cab view and then hearing a loud bird sound right next to me like if i was standing on a lake out in the country on a Sunday morning)
    - Constant issues (cracks, sound cutting out)
    (BR 101 suddenly no longer has SIFA pedal sound)
    - Poor recreation of the real world sounds most of the time
    (no reverb in tunnels)

    This then adds to the performance/lighting/stuttering/red light/derailment/crash/safety systems and all the other bugs in TSW... :(

    Oh and please dont tell me "DTG is a small company and UE is hard to do sound for"...
    - DTG is a multi million pound company
    - I have played countless UE games (even Tram and Train simulators done by actual (!) small teams) with great mixing and realistically layered sounds.

    Someone needs to look at the sound department and re-evaluate what they are doing and how they are doing it. Do they have the right tools to work with sounds for UE?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2022
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  32. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    So sorry for ruining your day. I hope you saw the bit in my message where I said 'like AP' I'm sure there are other sound companies out there that could do a brilliant job but the questions remain, why has sound been a problem in TSW for so long? And why isn't it a priority? I would say one of the biggest things in TSW is the immersion (or should be) and DTG clearly struggle to replicate what it sounds like when you travel on a train.
     
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  33. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Spot on! You don't need to jet off around the world to record generic tunnel bridge walls parapets sounds etc etc.
    As I have said it's not rocket science.

    As Mike says there is a plug-in available, yes it is expensive but if DtG is a multi-million-pound outfit then surely it would be a possibility to implement it and get some realistic sounds in-game properly mixed with accurate editing and sound levels, nobody wants to hear the chirping of birds or train doors from hundreds of meters away. Trains are noisy sound-creating things reflect that in the "simulation" and I'd happily pay extra for it if necessary.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2022
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  34. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I hope we will see massive sound improvements very soon!
     
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  35. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    If you look at it realistically, unlikely to happen. Like Matt said, they are focused on game breaking stuff. And Maik said there are limitations. Audio is immersion breaking, not game breaking. Audio probably needs a big overhaul and stuff, meaning it's not going to be easy to fix it very soon like you requested.
     
  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    There is clearly an inconsistency with sound in this game. I don't get why some want to fault to the excuses that the game engine is hard to do sound for or that is too difficult for DTG to make sounds because of x, y, z when smaller studios who use the same engine can have great sounds in their game. Tram Sim for instance has pretty good sounds. Look at what modders can do as well. It's not always perfect but it's much better than DTG's work most of the time. DTG is a multi million dollar company and there are no excuses for their inconsistency in sounds.

    Why does the M3A for example barley have flange sounds when going through curves? Why does the M3A and M7A require the player to turn up their tv just to hear the clickety clack when going through a track point/junction? Why does boston sprinter have track noise but most routes don't? Why does London Commuter have track noise only at Brighton but the rest of the route feels like your running on grinded rail? Why am I hearing bird sounds on a DB ICE train whilst doing 250 KMH in a closed cabin? Why does the LIRR M7 have a weird high pitch sound when accelerating as if a saw is cutting wood? Why does the M7 propulsion still cut out in the rear 4, 6 and 8 cars? Why does the class 395 javelin only make track noise in the 1st and 6th car of a 6th car train and the 1st, 6th, 7th and 12th car (cars where the driver cab is) when going through track points or junctions but the 375 and 465 don't have this issue despite this being an issue when sehs came out last year. I can go on.

    DTG need to stop cutting corners and actually make improvements and stop falling back on the same lousy excuses. It may not be a high priority at this time (which I don't understand because alot of the game breaking issues that they are trying to sort have nothing to do with the audio team. Is the audio team sleeping in bed or something?), but DTG do need to be more consistent in future content and make improvements and not pick and choose which train has better audio and which train they will just cut corners in
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2022
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  37. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    This, so much this!
    DTG needs to step it up big time when it comes to sounds and fix old the old broken and missing sounds,
     
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  38. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Not likely as Matt has stated that already it won't be a quick fix if ever.
     
  39. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I read Matt saying 'Audio is not game breaking' I would disagree. If you no longer play the game because of the poor sounds then does that not qualify?
     
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  40. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I suppose there's a certain degree of relativity but given the sounds have been in a poor state since TSW1 you would have thought in 5 years someone could have got inside the core and figured out how to do reverb etc. Not game breaking in the sense of a CTD or other issue but certainly high up the QOL scale as regards the simulation experience. Should be on a par with fixing broken scenarios etc., (though we know how that works out), maybe lower than putting right the abysmal kettle physics in SoS.
     
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  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I still don't play LIRR because of the appalling sounds. That weird high pitch saw cutting sound isn't even close to realistic nor close to the sounds of the Harlem line m7a and it's unbelievable that the propulsion still cuts out in the rear 4,6 and 8 cars despite dtg claiming that they fixed that issue when they didn't
     
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  42. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds in TSW are actually so bad that this made me stop playing more the once.
    There is no excuse for the sounds/audio being this bad
     
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  43. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have defaulted to TSC for quite some time now and have not fired TSW3 up for quite a while.
     
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  44. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    The questions is: How could this happen? What went wrong with the sounds /audio in TSW and how are they planning to fix it?
     
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  45. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Very very slowly if at all.
     
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  46. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    You can always find Some fixes / upgrades in railsim.de
     
  47. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    The audio in general needs a massive overhaul. I'm afraid modders couldn't do it.
     
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  48. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Modders can only do soo much. They can do some things like improve existing sounds, increase volume for some sounds, add new sounds but they wouldn't be able to add reverb or sounds over bridges and stuff. Sound mods are still great but it would be nice if dtg could do better
     
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  49. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm sure we will continue to hold them to account.
     
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  50. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    The simple fact that single person modders 10 out of 10 times do a better job then DTG with their whole team of paid sound people tells me there is something wrong, especially considering the many mixing issues and sound bugs.
     
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