Upcoming Release Master The West Midlands!

And indeed on our topic of pricing, a classic era BR Blue route with a new loco we haven't seen yet and a different type of DMU probably would persuade me to hand over the £30 (if well done of course).

 

100%. For me, it's the double whammy of less content for more money. It's a pretty short route with one new train for £5 more. I have no problem with price increases but they have to be set against what you are getting for the money. Just six months ago they made two new Steam locos (with new physics, steam particles etc), a new set of coaches and a 36 mile route for £25. Now, six months later, they can make one new unit with a 30 mile route with no depot for £30? Go figure. Makes JD's comment of setting the prices more for what they feel a route is worth a bit paltry to me.

As you say, I'd also happily pay £35 or even £40 for a well made section of the ECML, MML or WCML. The price has to be proportionate to what you are getting. By comparison this makes the extended SEHS with its 4 trains and big network seem like a steal for £30.

 

That's not really how inflation works, though, is it?

My house cost 50x what my parents paid for their house, because they bought it a long time ago; it's certainly not 50x more house. I bet your council tax goes up every year too - do you check through the "how we're spending your money" leaflet to see what extra services you'll be getting? Spoiler alert: none.

 

As someone who knows the route quite well, I think I ought to give a few comments/ask a few questions:

-Just one new train feels a bit unusual. The Cross City Line is a reasonably busy one, and is much more than commuter 323s. Without Hereford WMR fasts or XC services I can really foresee it feeling a bit ghost like. Birmingham New Street is going to be really dead with just 323s, and that is going to detract massively from the enjoyment of emerging from the tunnels into a huge expanse of tracks and trains, one of the things I was looking forward to the most about this add-on.
-The price increase seems fine, if the route is to be of high quality. I'm amazed there haven't been any real increases over the past few years, and considering the work that goes into making routes I think this is fair. However, the quality provided must be worth the money. I would easily pay as much as £35 for a route like London Commuter, but I was struggling to bring myself to order BCC at £25. At £29.99 I'm even more deterred.
-The route itself looks beautiful, and I don't have a huge issue with the length unlike some others here, it's just the rolling stock. The lack of the depot is slightly irritating but not the end of the world from my perspective.
-Has the 323 model been ported from TSC?. It seems to retain the striking inaccuracy, to be frank. The interior doesn't have the correct feel either, it should be far more yellow. Whilst I accept that this does sound slightly nit-picky, I buy routes and trains largely for the interiors, and the recreation of a realistic passenger experience.

So what do I actually want to say? Well, adding a Turbostar would help alleviate the lack of diversity. It would be a new train and I appreciate the effort that is required, but it would enhance the DLC massively. If that would be too much, then surely adding an HST on XC NE-SW diagrams wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility, the inaccurate livery could easily be remedied by Creator's Club uploads for those it would bother. Either way, is there any chance of a Turbostar DLC in the near-ish future to layer onto BCC, if it can't be provided in the route?

 

I know that's not how inflation works but this route is a double whammy of price 'inflation' and product 'shrinkflation'.

• If I buy a 1kg of chocolate one day for £10 and the next day it costs £12, fine, that's inflation.

• If I buy 1kg of chocolate one day for £10 and the next day the bar is 800g and costs £10, fine, that's shrinkflation.

• If I buy 1kg of chocolate one day for £10 and the next day the bar is 800g but costs £12; that is both, which for me is taking the proverbial.

Totally agree with this above. Once again I feel like DTG haven't handled this well. For the first route after a price increase, why not make another route on the scale of London Commuter to soften the blow a bit, rather than another 1 train commuter route a la Cathcart? They couldn't even be upfront about the price change when asked last week, instead leaving us to find out from Steam product page.

 

My suggestion exactly:

So why couldn't they do a GWR HST 7-8 coach layer, which operates per hour southbound and Northbound, so that when the HST is available in livery editor, we can create a NMT or XC version and then replicate what can be seen on the route?

Thus, making New Street busier and also offering a varied livery variety..

 

Dtg have no plans at the moment to create a turbostar. We'll just have to wait until dtg say they are working on it.

For the 323, most likely yes. It's easier to use an existing 3d model and then add more texturing and details to make it fit tsw3 standards.

There was most likely only 1 train cuz dtg didn't have enough time or there was a lot of custom route building that needed to be done. Whether it's the landscape, environment, station details, etc, other complexities that made it difficult for dtg to create another new loco. It's extremely rare these days to have more than 1 loco, last being spirit of steam.

 

If you check the Train Sim world Community channel on Facebook, Matt Peddlesden confirmed it was not a port over. Also, londonmidland did a comparison between the TSC one and the TSW3 one on the FB page also.

 

If anyone is interested.

 

If you read the article, you'll see that there is, in fact, an HST layer.

 

I read it extremely well, I thought I did anyway. Did it state they were passenger services though because I can't locate that bit?

 

I work in purchasing and everything my company uses has gone up in price in the last twelve months, some items more than once. DTG DLC hasn't really changed price in over a decade. I really don't think DTG are being unreasonable in increasing prices. It is clear some really have no idea of the costs of running a company.

DLC is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I will still purchase it at £30 no doubt as it is a local route which interests me, there are many routes I would never have purchased at £25 let alone £30 and would probably purchase in a sale. £30 is still a lot cheaper than a lot of other forms of entertainment and leisure.

As for Soho depot, it would be great to see it included but it isn't missing, it isn't part of the route in real life. I can live with it not being there certainly.

 

Rapid Transit was released on consoles in 2018 with one commuter train (the 182 came later), one A-to-B route and 23 stations over 71km (some of which was in tunnels). The Bank of England inflation calculator has its £25 price tag valued roughly a fiver more today.

For that £30, we can now buy BCC, with 223 services for the 323 (in 3- and 6-car formations), a variety of freight options (using the SEHS 66 as standard, but up to 9 additional services if you own the wagons from GWE/TVL/31), an RHTT layer, railtours in the Class 37 and even a bit of HST ("passing through on its way to refurb") action; 25 "distinctly unique" stations over a 60km route. The drop in absolute distance might tick your 'shrunkflated' box, but assuming price parity through inflation, I'd suggest the BCC release is the better value of the two.

 

How much was a KG of chocolate in 2010?

 

No, they represent stock moves from the GWR to refurb at Doncaster

 

Enough to induce hyperglycemic shock, just like today.

 

Current UK interest rates are 13%, DTG raise price by 20%. hmmm not for me I'm afraid. I'll be one of the players who pay less for the DLC than I was going to if price remained static. I'll just wait 3 to 6 months longer after all I've still got 300 more services to run on SEHS not to mention BML. Also, it will give them time to sort the inevitable bugs out

 

How many posts were kicking around saying we'd pay more. Guess they listened eh.....
That said, I wouldn't have paid £30 for Cathcart, SOS, IOW, or Bakerloo. It's all subjective, whereas BML, Cajon, SEHS, I would.

It's all relative to personal value too.

 

I think it is pretty awful a stream has been provided 2 days before release, yet when SEHS or WCL were previewed, they offered 2+ streams. Always typical that the one you want to buy you have to wait for but even a general stream providing a brief insight with the intent to fix lighting issues would have been acceptable.

 

This route is a pass for me. I already own BCC on TSC classic and I found the route to get boring really fast. Even on TSC classic that came with the 350 loco. Don’t get me wrong is a beautiful route but the sounds on the 323 never got fixed.

 

Just preview it first and make your mind up from there. There is a good patch provided by a 3rd party for the 323 sounds on TSC. Hopefully you managed to obtain them as the original sounds were damn awful.

 

“Didn’t have enough time” is fair enough if we are talking about minor additions, but with regards to core features of a route you absolutely have to plan your schedule around it. There is no-one predetermining the release date other than Dovetail themselves. The decision to postpone it by a couple of days is a move in the right direction if you ask me, and I’m glad Dovetail are more willing to change launches if a product isn’t ready.

I didn’t see that, it’s definitely better but still not quite there. The 323 must be harder to model than I thought!

 

I would had taken even just the soho yard for the ECS moves

 

so would you rather the would preview you something they have said needs more time to be worked on. Actually knowing you you would as then you can come here and moan about it.

 

don’t tell people that here in hey will go into meltdown

 

Yeah basically. As I said before, don't respond to my posts if they offend you.

 

but then again, ats is much higher quality than the dlcs dtg releases. Ats actually takes their time and makes things good before releasing it lol

 

I think dtg have said that they anounce the route like 2 weeks before release and do livestreams so they are better able to answer questions since development of the route is basically over. Things have changed over at dtg, so Im assuming this is what is going to happen moving forward.

 

I'm a little confused:

1. What would be the point of pre-ordering the route if there is no discount? Am I missing something? Will they run out of stock?

2. What strange exchange rate does DTG use? According to today's rate, the route should cost about $34.95 rather than the actual price of $39.99.

I don't mind a modest price increase, but 33%!?. For this very modest route, I think I'll pass.

 

There are some games in general that will allow players to pre order but not have a discount so it's not unheard of. I don't see the point of pre ordering in general to be honest.

I don't mind price increases. TSC dlcs were $40 but at least there were frequent sales. But $40 for a route with one train, isn't long and has around the same number of stations as BKL doesn't seem worth $40. If it was the full WCML, then that seems somewhat reasonable, but for this route, it's definitely gonna be a pass for me. This route seems like it will just be another Cathcart Circle anyways

 

Yeah I don't either, it's not like it will sell out lol. I suppose it increases the excitement for some..

 

I was a little shocked myself finding no discount and the route costing me $51.99CDN I think I will wait for when it goes on sale.

 

Same here. I was expecting some big stuff for BNS in regards to the layers, but nope. The price increase meant we could see bigger and more extensive routes like the EC and WC, but this feels no different (in some aspects less exciting) than a TSW2 release. £30 for only about 30 miles, one new train and a deserted New Street feels extortionate.

 

Why are people saying that this route has less content? It’s almost as if they know it has a standard amount of content because they also follow it up with something about Cathcart as well, another route with the standard one train per route we always get. It has the same amount of content as most TSW routes. Some routes get a reworked train on top of the one included new train but other than a select few routes (mainly early routes) TSW routes get exactly that, one new train. The route is a bit on the shorter side of standard and certainly not as long as those long routes we sometimes see but as a standard non-year-start-bundle route DLC it is completely normal. The only difference is the price has gone up a bit.

Go through the list of routes in TSW and see what they had at release. BCC will not look that different. We already know UK content doesn’t lend itself well to layers and reused stock, unless you are clever like DTG and do a string of routes with the same type of train for the reworks, the ones everyone is sick of (hint - third rail, way down south) but TSW routes don’t come with more than one new train. SoS was one of the only recent exceptions because it was steam and as the first route of its kind it got a second new train, in the same way SPG and GWE got three and NTP got two. German routes get to use practically all the previous content from many German routes and the issue there is the reused Dosto, but UK trains don’t mix so well. If someone adds the BR locos and MkII coaches to a route from a slightly later period to give a route extra content everyone goes mental. We could have had another Electrostar for the new UK route. Is that what people wanted? No, so we get something elsewhere and as such it only has the one train but DTG have added some layers, so it’s not so void of action. UK routes don’t normally get a depot (that is off the actual route depicted) so that isn’t a cutback in content. It could have been included, sure, but that would be a non-standard extra and thus a bonus.

It isn’t shrinkflation either on two accounts. Shrinkflation is where you get less content for the same amount of money, a smaller chocolate bar for the same price. This route has a standard amount of content and the price has actually gone up, so not shrinkflation, just inflation. And the price has gone up because of inflation, nothing else.

This grasp of reality is passed on to the good people of this forum completely free of charge. Enjoy, and please do go through that list of routes to see what you got that was new (and not a rework) in each.

 

Say what you will, people are looking at this offering and what do they see?

The price is going up, actually by quite a bit, but the game is not moving in a forward direction. There doesn't seem to be anything new and exciting. There's even a rumor that the platforms are dry in a rainstorm, which would be going backwards. And the most elementary feature, a major depot, is missing because the developers ran out of time ( or out of gas). What's that about?

There seems to be a question about value for money, a question that wasn't asked about previous routes like CJP. And players are invited to pre-order the route without a discount? How does that figure? Why would they do that?

When you increase the price of your product, however justified, you need to make a splash, cause some excitement.

Maybe, when we see the route itself, opinions will change to a more positive view. Let's all keep an open mind.

 

I was going to stay out of the price increase discussion (at least for the time being) however I’ve changed my mind and thought I’d add my thoughts to it.

firstly, do i understand general price increases happening? Mostly, but I don’t all agree it’s stemming all from the Russian Ukraine War.

Secondly, do I understand DTG as a company need to keep their business a float ? Yes, I have sympathy for that situation and understand their need.

Lastly, Do I think price increases in this way are the best response ? - Mostly No

It all seems like this will do nothing but drive away the customers and at best make the patient (mostly likely I would say those who are already invested in TSW) wait for sales, which on Microsoft for example are about 2 per year.

I also cant understand the reason (fully) why they rise now, TS has been operating for about a 10 years (not sure on exact dates) and yet it’s prices seemed to have held (at least until now)

have those past 10 years been an economical miracle of 0% inflation ? Surely not

or have DTG said that price is brilliant and it holds ? (Until now)

or did they just charge expensively back then so they appear to not rise in price ?

At the end of this I’ll never agree reacting to “inflation” with price rises is a great idea, it all seems that the reasons things rise because they are purposely put up not because of an event/incident.

My intention with TSW in general now is to hold off (at least for a while) I have around 90% of the content released as of yet, therefore quite a substantial amount to do, for me in general I need to start limiting my purchases otherwise I don’t think I will get my value from my previous purchases. Whilst at first this price rise seemed to be negative for me personally, it may help to deter over purchasing on all but most wanted items. Though I do think it will increase my critical reviews on future content meaning unfixed bugs or IMO misjudged building of route/loco features decisions, will affect my decision to purchase to a higher extent

Just my thoughts on the whole thing in general. I still of course remain sympathetic to the issue of the company affecting it’s employees.

 

I know you are a regular member here just like me, but I completely disagree with your thought process. CCL has a depot and barely any AI (excluding the 314), though it has a mere 20 miles of track (ish) and that was/is £24.99 when released, so now we are due to get a little more track + price increase and no depot. Do you not think that catering to your loyal customers over the years for the sake of a little extra go beyond (an extra 4 mile of track and a depot) is an acceptable thing to do? Think about the mess of the Rush hour routes, the constant OOM issues (still not fixed), the continual promises that have been broken and then to top it off, new features like rain drop effect on platforms and puddles being visible on platforms with the new system has now also been missed on their upcoming flagship route for TSW3. I'm not sure if I'm deluded or you are?

The company needs to stop churning out half completed routes just to make the piggy bank top up, because I am all too understanding that this is how it will be released and nothing else will happen to the route, just like CCL,SOS. We don't get listened to and do not think this will all change now. Like many others have stated, one for the sale... Until they learn their lesson, they can wait for payment.

 

The team could at least give us the class 150 trainset which goes from Birmingham new street to Bromsgrove as you can see, which i really do hope so.

 

Technically yes this is true mate, however they were too infrequent to be added probably. Whereas there were 4 x Class 170's per hour (ish) in 2019 for WMT and XC respectively.

 

We can keep moaning about it, they've made their decision and they'll stick to it because they've got to.

We either pay up or wait until it's on sale, take your pick. I urge as many people possible to wait for a sale but it won't happen, you know it and DTG know it.

 

Big difference between recreating a full scale route in TSW than in ATS the cities and towns ETC in ATS are NOT replicating real life nor are the 1-1 scale unlike a TSW route so poor comparasion in all fairness. I get your point but you cant say ATS is more realstic when it is nothing like the real life counterpart is is attempting to create.

 

Any company will be reluctant to put prices up as it will always generate negativity amongst it's customers. If you can absorb a little increase in your costs and avoid passing that on, you will try to. But those cost increases will happen: electricity bills go up, fuel costs go up, computer prices go up, staff will expect a pay rise at every annual review, your customers will expect you to hire new sound experts and new talented developers who can add fancy new features, and Matt will need to be promoted so he can take control of the product lines (he doesn't work for free)...

If you manage to absorb those costs for, say, ten years, eventually your profits will start to take a hit and you'll need to start recovering by putting up your prices. I can easily imagine a developer who was in from the start being paid 20% more than they were a decade ago. I suspect most of us, even without promotions, have had enough inflationary pay rises to cover that extra fiver.

If you always used to wait for the sales, carry on waiting for the sales. If you thought the routes were decent value ten years ago, they're probably just as decent value today.

Inflation is a slowly creeping glacier that won't be stopped and DTG have absorbed that for a decade when they could have added incremental yearly price increases. At least this way, they've not had to put up with the complaints every year.

 

ETS2 and ATS have got better over the years though at their summarised compression and the feeling/atmosphere of the areas depicted. In fact you only have to do a drive through the older original core territories, in particular the UK, without ProMods to see how much things have come on in theit later maps. Then you have Snowrunner with their very reasonable priced Season Pass who have output loads of content, though admittedly I haven't progressed much beyond the original maps - mainly because there is so much do (and some of the maps are fiendishly hard).

Even TSC without a sale I can spend less than the asking price for this simple BCC DLC and get a route three times as long with far more rolling stock. Yes you don't get the all day timetable and TSC is a bit dated, but not that bad and it still looks and runs far better thsn TSW in most instances.

And the ultimate - for £60 I bought MSFS which provides a great world map, numerous detailed airports and loads of different aircraft to fly. Later this week they are adding a free A310 Airbus. Yes it has warts including issues with the save game, but by god I look at that, then at DTG's asking price for BCC and only end up reinforcing my views that TSW has been turned into an attempt to churn out content at the maximum price they can get away with. Well hopefully this decision will come back to bite them and probably as early as the Chinese New Year Steam sale this will be going at a bargain basement price.

 

But you guys obviously knew you would get backlash from the community because it's a key aspect of the operation of this route. No one takes responsibility within this company, it's your word and that's final. Why can't you create a DLC that adds an extension to Soho Depot and a class 170 for £11.99, or whatever the inflated rate is now, seen as our 'reasonable' request is constantly being ignored. You now do extensions to routes right? DTG JD

 

i just check pc steam and seen the price has gone up big time on DLC's 59 australian dollars no way in the world would i pay that tell me that this is a error as the normal price has always been 42 australian

 

sorry i wont pay almost 60 for a dlc when its clear u cant even release a route on time let alone have it come out with no bugs and what 1 train for the price sorry but no im done ill stay with ATS

 

Yes Texas is looking very enticing. A couple more territories and we will be able to drive coast to coast, admittedly at 1/20 scale - match that, Dovetail!

 

What I will now be doing too. Gone are the days of buying every DLC.