PC Birmingham Cross City Line First Thoughts

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, Nov 15, 2022.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys.

    I’d like to share my thoughts on what I’ve seen after watching our first livestream of the Birmingham Cross City Line DLC.

    The stations:
    Firstly, I’m liking all the custom assets and station buildings which have been included with the route. It’s nice to see these were custom made and weren’t just recycled or ‘stolen’ from another route. I like that the station posters are the real life lookalikes, too. It looks like the stations are fairly explorable and have had a lot of detail put into them.

    With the lighting, I found it to be quite hit and miss. Whilst some stations looked nice, others looked quite flat looking, lacking shadows and ambient occlusion (AO). Birmingham New Street and its tunnel approaches were quite bright looking, when they should be a lot more darker and dingy looking, in my opinion. This was particularly noticeable when the whole cab of the 323 was lit up like a Christmas tree. There was a distinct lack of weathering and dirt, although this is a general Train Sim World shortcoming, as we’ve experienced in the past, with other routes.

    The Class 323:
    The model of the Class 323 is a big improvement from the Train Sim Classic version. A lot more detailed and accurate. I like how the cab has a lot of functionality, lots of buttons to press which actually do something. The extra functionality of the GSM-R was a nice addition too. You also have a pantograph isolation switch, which means you can lower the pantograph in an event of a failure.

    Again, with the lighting, I find the cab environment too bright, clean and pristine looking. It would’ve been nice to see a bit of wear and tear, to make it look like it’s a hard working unit, instead of it being made to look like it’s come straight off the production line.

    I also noticed the cab and interior had very little to no shadows and ambient occlusion? This made of look very flat looking, and not ‘3D like’. The internal PIS was a bit of a let down, with it looking very low res and stretched looking.

    The sounds were a mixed bag. I liked all the little individual and unique sounds the 323 had to offer, however the mixing of the motor sounds sounded quite rough to me. There were quite a few ‘stages’ which were missing in the 323 acceleration sequence, as well as the transitioning between sounds sounding quite rough.

    The route:
    With the route itself, I was quite impressed with what it had to offer. Consistency in detail, stations were nicely modelled, lots of custom assets and no ‘sloppy’ route building from what I saw. Nice attention to the OLE with its custom build assets. The collectibles are an added bonus, as well as the cats placed along the route at random locations. The disused platforms at several locations were appropriately modelled too. No ‘perfect’ platforms assets being used.

    The only downside of the route is that Soho Depot wasn’t included, which would’ve been nice to have been included.

    The pricing:
    For me, I personally don’t think the route is worth £30. I’d pay £25 tops for it, if it was up to me.

    Miscellaneous:
    Seeing as pantograph sparks are a TSW 3 core feature, this unfortunately will not be working with the 323 with the shipped route. It was said this will be fixed in a post patch, however I am always sceptical about these, as on several occasions these haven’t come into fruition.


    Overall, I’m going to rate this DLC 7.5/10 :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2022
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  2. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    Looked v good to me, the signalling looked accurate with approach control, scenery looked decent, sounds good. Really nice to see the working OSS (not done before in TSW?) and TPWS. Adds as extra bit of realism and we'll need to drive carefully!
    Only downside was the lack of AI in New St, but hopefully in time it will be padded out. If they extend this route, it'll be an all time great I reckon.
    Looking forward to Thu.

    And great to have Daisy there, really good to hear how it all works in real life, she did a great job!
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2022
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  3. s0ggyflannel69

    s0ggyflannel69 Member

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    i agree with most the points in this, the route is super inconsistent and new street is a bit of a disappointment, but overall it seems like it’d be a good route for £25, unfortunately it’s £30 but i guess that’s how it works now
     
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  4. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Not watched/watching the stream but curious if anything has been said about the price, or has that been brushed to one side?
     
  5. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

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    agreed, especially on the pricing. I would maybe push to an 8
     
  6. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think everyone needs to forget that routes used to be £25 when talking about this. £30 is the new price for routes. So this route is £30. Saying how much you would pay for it is pointless, as it is quite easy to wait for a sale, just like when I have wanted to pay £18 for routes in the past.
     
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  7. bence950906

    bence950906 Well-Known Member

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    All in all, after the initial difficulties, it's not a bad DLC, I only have problems with the pricing, but I can't do anything about that unfortunately. Surprisingly many smaller features have been added to the train.
     
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  8. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this. £30 is the price for a route and (outside of the weird exchange rate issues some people are having) it's not going to change no matter how much people whinge about it or deny that inflation is even a thing. If it was worth £25 when TSW first appeared, it's worth £30 today. If you're not willing to pay £30 for it today, you probably would have complained about £25 back then (unless you really don't understand how inflation works).

    I do think that £30 (or £25) is quite a lot for a DLC, which is why I usually wait for sales for most routes (I bought Island Line 2020 for the princely sum of £8 in the November PSN sale), but this is a route that I'm excited to play and I'll happily pay £30 for it. If they bring out a 170 or 196 DLC with an extension to Worcester, I'll probably buy that too for whatever the loco DLC price becomes. If you don't think it's worth that, just wait for a sale.
     
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  9. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    This was a rather interesting part of the stream for me - I am not affected by the regional prices myself, but brushing it off simply as "yeah, we don't know the exchange rate, so we're going by Steam" was weird. We know you're going by those Steam charts, THAT'S the problem. I understand a price increase can't do the same price forever, but some of these increases are wild. I pity people who just want to play some train content, and with everything getting more expensive by tens of percent, all of a sudden, their game overtakes it by multiplying the price.
     
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  10. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I was impressed with what I saw (I have already pre-ordered). The train and the route had lots of nice details, especially the stations. The sounds sounded accurate, I have ridden on class 323's many times so they sounded accurate. I would agree the cab looked a bit too clean but that is a minor point for me. Many parts of the route were recognisable.

    As for the price, as said £30 is the new price for DLC and that argument has been done to death now. Personally if I was willing to purchase a route for £25 before, which lately hasn't been that often, then I am willing to pay £30, I will certainly get my money's worth out of it, I just put £30 of petrol in my car which I found much more hard to bear. I just hope that something can be done about the erratic exchange rates for overseas players.
     
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  11. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    For my part well... the route is well executed, as is the 323. Unfortunatly I didnt liked empty Birmingham, and while I know effort was put in varied timetable with avaiable rolling stock in TSW3, I still feel it too empty. Was fearing it when I saw number of services. That and price will make me wait.
     
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  12. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    Happy to pay £29.99 but I play PC and xBox so as sales on xbox never happen will buy it and wait for a reasonable steam discount for PC.

    However I think a pre-order price of £22.50 would make me pre-order future routes for both my PC and console.
     
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  13. graham.haddon

    graham.haddon Well-Known Member

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    I thought it looked and sounded fabulous. Obviously a lot of effort has been put in to this route. I am really loving approach control that is lacking in other routes.
    I don't mind the increase in price but getting rid of the pre order discount is a bit of a shame.
     
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  14. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed, the approach tunnels from the South of the route look like they haven’t been baked? All the outside lighting is coming into the cab, when in reality it should still be pitch black until you actually come out of the tunnel.

    Here’s a comparison between in game and in real life, in the same locations.

    DTG JD DTG Matt Could this be looked into please?

    2D4CAC7A-1D3C-4064-B8D6-157E0F857DE5.jpeg
     
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  15. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Didn't catch whether they were using a release build or older beta one. In an earlier post JD did state that the delay to release was due to issues with light baking, so maybe this has been corrected.
     
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  16. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

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    i fail to see any advantage in pre-ordering
     
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  17. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That is up to you, I had decided I was going to purchase it after reading a couple of articles.
     
  18. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    One thing I would have liked is to truly have no talking over the motor sounds. It was hard to listen to the full acceleration sounds when JD was talking into the mic saying he would be quiet but that covered up a few seconds of the acceleration sounds or something. Like just have a few minutes of 0 actual talking and let's just hear the train sounds lol
     
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  19. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    Very impressed overall and I can see me clocking up many miles on here. I am not fussed by the 30 quid price tag and would get it on Thursday but I've got work and it's the wife's birthday so will have to wait until Friday. Also it was nice to have Daisy on there to share her wealth of knowledge on both the route and unit.
     
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  20. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    It looks quite nice, but I will wait for a nice discount.
     
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  21. Trainiac

    Trainiac Well-Known Member

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    How is the route inconsistent? I thought the train and especially the scenery were fantastic!
     
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  22. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Thanks for the detailed feedback, glad you enjoyed sections of the content!

    I'll check in on the light baking bits tomorrow.
     
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  23. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    I hope there were enough opportunities to hear the sounds (there were certainly a lot of quieter moments).

    Have to admit I was caught out the first time, wasn't expecting Daisy to set off when she did :). Hope you did get the chance to hear it at some point throughout the stream.
     
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  24. TimTri

    TimTri Well-Known Member

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    Just watched the recording of the stream (had to go to a lecture during the live broadcast)!

    First impressions are genuinely really good. It’s been a while since we’ve had such a smooth and polished passenger route - which is understandable in this case because of the comparatively short length and reduced rolling stock variety.
    I’ll echo some of the other comments I’ve seen here on the forums: The route and train look really nice, but there isn’t a ton of service variety and sections of the route look quite empty. Reminds me of DLCs like Cathcart Circle that are really really cool at first, but you simply lose interest after some time because you’ve seen everything and don’t really have a desire to revisit them. The overall vibe of the route is overall also quite similar to many English routes we already have in the game (as in there’s no breathtaking or unique station, track section or scenery area) and the train has big similarities to other rolling stock in many areas, too (at least for people who don’t know much about British trains).

    Because of all that, I don’t think I could justify spending the increased route price at launch, especially considering we can get older routes with more variety and replayability for less.
    Again, I was quite impressed by the stream and the dedication of the team. I just think I’m at a stage now (after nearly two years of playing TSW!) where I have acquired a sufficiently large DLC collection and a taste for routes that allows me to pass on otherwise good content (instead of having to buy all the good stuff to satisfy my appetite for content, so to speak). It sure will be near the top of my wishlist once a discount is available, though! ;) Congrats on the good work, team.
     
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  25. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    It's all good. I was able to listen to the wonderful sounds
     
  26. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how many people already preorder it already, or going to wait once the reviews are in? I am still undecided. ;)
     
  27. max1313

    max1313 Active Member

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    I have the BCC in TSC and even there I found it to get boring after a few plays. And in TSC at least it came with the 350 that was used for the AI at new street. I will pass on this route. New street looked so empty during the stream
     
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  28. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    I hope dtg can improve (fix) the lighting with a patch, its an atmosphere booster.
     
  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yes it's kind of a shame that they duplicated the existing TSC route rather than doing (say) Coventry to Wolverhampton and Walsall.

    From what people are saying it does look as if a fair effort has gone into this, particularly the input from Daisy. Just can't justify a full price purchase but have no doubt I will pick it up on sale - even at just 20% off (Christmas maybe, though unlikely). As I've said before £24.99 with a pre-order price of £22.50 would have been the perfect pitch, but they blew it.
     
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  30. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Your opinion doesn't matter. Not worth £30 at all.
     
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  31. Ian1991

    Ian1991 Well-Known Member

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    The reason why its £30 and not 25 is simply because steam have increased their percentage of takings for each new sale going forwards. And with TSW3 developments becoming more advanced theyre not going to drop the price of any new routes or locos they make going forwards as DTG cannot afford to take less money same as any business really the cost is passed onto the consumer.
     
  32. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Not being worth £30 is your opinion not a fact. And someone else opinion is equally as important as yours , so yes their opinion does matter
     
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  33. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Why would their opinion matter. Will you just sit there and pay their prices? You are happy for this I assume, or you just purposely want to disagree with me? Seems everytime I say something, you want to constantly disagree.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2022
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  34. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I've said for day I'm happy to pay £30.00 for a route I'd have otherwise paid £25 for. So whilst not happy about price increases in much the same way that I'm not happy about the cost of charging my EV has gone up from 39p a kWh to 60p a kWh I accept inflation happens and companies have to make money.

    If you think I'm disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing with you then you need to know you aren't that important
     
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  35. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    It's the same old excuse with you. Please stop comparing energy to a hobby as this hobby won't make you live longer. Ultimately, I like to think I'm important and that is why I'm alive to this day, thought that wouldn't matter to you.

    I need you to realise that this DLC is not to the value of £30 and you will always continue to disagree with me, yet I am right :)
     
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  36. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    Had just posted this in the discussion thread, but thought it warrants being here too.

    So, I've just watched most of the stream and can I first say that insight from Daisy was fantastic, some really interesting facts and demonstrated a lot of enthusiasm which was great - I hope more preview streams can have a few more guests.

    Anyway, time to move onto my first thoughts. While I thought the route actually looked fantastic, overall I didn't get much of a wow factor, if at all if being honest, thus not sure if I will ever get the route - and this is considering modern UK routes are my favourite. Here are some of my positive and negative impressions of the route:

    Positives
    - Was really surprised how great the route actually looked, plus the nice extra details - if more future routes look like this then I'll be happy.
    - The 323 looks great, both from the cab and exterior, with lots of nice features and decent sounds.

    Negatives

    - I think this particular route that features the UK's biggest station outside London without the available layers/rolling stock was way too ambitious at this stage. Why not create a quieter route or two in this area, complemented by newer, appropriate rolling stock and/or new TOCs - and then at some point in the future you could of had a not so empty New Street version of Cross-City. I mean look at London Commuter, think how many different routes it took to get a pretty immersive and bustling experience with Victoria, Gatwick and Brighton with the Southeastern, GWR 166 and 313s, respectively etc.
    - While relating to the above, I think this warrants its own point - it's frustrating to see such an empty New Street Station. I see a few comments on the forums of people saying now we have New Street that it could form the basis for a further network of routes - that's great, but what happens after two or three routes when people start moaning they want fresher content and demand no more routes in that same area (*cough* London/SE *cough*)??
    - This leads me onto my next point, again maybe too ambitious, but now we are in post-rush hour of TSW, to see the new Cross-City route with just 248 services (plus no depot) is underwhelming in one of the UK's busiest rail networks, and feels like we are going backward instead of going forward. While the extra layers such as the RHTT, Class 37 and 43 are a nice touch, this feels a long way off compared with the German routes for example - Cross-City should really have had a least another unique modern passenger loco, and thus in turn, a potentially more busier and varied timetable opportunity, considering it's a brand new area on TSW.
    - As someone who likes modern UK routes as a favourite, I'm a bit disappointed overall. I, of course, welcome new areas of the UK for routes, but please have major stations that are busy.
     
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  37. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    I quite like the route. I like unique sounding trains which the 323 does have. I'm not that picky when it comes to sounds or scenery or whatever there is since I'm not some train enthusiast and don't live in the area/ride the train, etc. I don't really care that it's empty since I won't be paying attention anyway. But I like the sounds, scenery, new features. Will I buy it immediately? No. Maybe later or I might end up picking it up on release day or something. I'm just looking forward to future dlc, especially those by tsg and other routes since I only have a finite amount of money in my steam wallet. Sure the route is empty, there's no depot, only 1 new train, but they aren't really dealbreakers for me. Daisy was wonderful in capturing the sounds and working with dtg and that is really what made this dlc awesome.
     
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  38. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Slightly off topic but I found it funny when Daisy put Matt in his place when he told her to slow down when approaching a station (I think) and she said that she knew how to drive. Matt may be the Professor but he doesn't drive for West Midlands Railway..

    On the topic of Daisy, it was great to see her on stream, her input was so valuable and interesting. Much better than it been driven by someone who's just trying to sell the route (if that makes sense..).
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
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  39. mbjbjm#7281

    mbjbjm#7281 Well-Known Member

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    You can’t be right with an opinion. What is fact though is that this DLC costs £30.
     
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  40. Shackamaxon

    Shackamaxon Well-Known Member

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    It was brushed aside. ( Apart from what we've already been hearing, so far ).

    They've been in gaming industry for a decade and a half. Couldn't they come up with a better reason than this ?

    For the record, some people in the community will have to pay 9 times of what they've been paying earlier.
    For me, the increment in price is 85%. ( Not the end of the world, but definitely puts me on the fence. )

    Absolutely understandable. TSW has infinite usability, unlike fuel in the car. So 30 Pounds is a perfect deal for me. Just the problem is, I ( and many others ) don't have British Pounds in our wallets.

    As far as the route is concerned from the perspective of a Non-British person, who knows nothing about Birmingham ( unlike London ); it looks good to me.

    New train with interesting features, fresh scenery, the steepest incline in this country ( trying to struggle with Steam and super-heavy trains in 'off the rails' ), a chocolate factory, and interesting collectibles.

    Being a train enthusiast before anything else, I really want to buy it on day 1 like I've been doing since joining this community. Please fix the listed rates and I'm happy to carry on !
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
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  41. space_ace96

    space_ace96 Active Member

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    There's something about the pricing I haven't seen mentioned yet. I can understand things like inflation, increased production quality, and increased overhead from Steam, but at the price we used to get routes, it was routine to have two or more trains in DLC. Then of course once there was a roundhouse of commonly used locos for each country, DTG started working their route selection around routes that would allow them to reuse stock as often as possible with minimal changes (looking at you, SD40, GP38, and Electrostar). Still even then, routes would be released with multiple stock, even if only one was truly "new" (e.g. the ICE 1 in SKW, the GEVO in Cajon Pass, the tilting DMU in Tharandter Rampe, etc). Some routes like IOW, it's understandable since only one train is used in real life (and the price reflected such), but it's a stretch to ask for what is now almost the price of a full console game and more than the base price of many other games on Steam for a DLC that includes less content, shorter length, and far fewer services than previous, lower-priced DLC. I understand that the TSC/TSW model is not designed for everyone to get everything; you buy what you want, and don't buy what you don't, and I'm not opposed to paying for DLC that I want, but in this case, it seems like DTG is asking more for less. Like someone else mentioned earlier, look at London Commuter with over 1K services with all layers, between 2 and 6 playable trains depending on previously owned DLC, and a significant length. A route with the UK's second busiest station outside of London should not fall so short of that just because we're getting one entirely new train and operator.
     
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  42. Choo choo

    Choo choo Well-Known Member

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    Despite my relative lack of interest in UK routes and my lack of enthusiasm herof I must admit that Daisy made that stream much more enjoyable than any other preview stream.
     
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  43. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    The value of a DLC is what people are willing to pay for it. I'm happy to pay £30 for this DLC, redrev1917 is happy to pay £30 and so are quite a few others. From that evidence, I'd say you're not right and, outside of your own curmudgeonly little world, not particularly important. :)
     
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  44. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    So I am wrong then basically.

    Ok, thank you for your kind words and I will buy it at full price.
     
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  45. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    I'm not sure that's a fair summary. The world is a very volatile place at the moment, and we've deferred to the platforms, who have determined these recommended prices based on all manner of criteria (both on a large scale, such as inflation or exchange rates, or a small scale, such as basket size) which we - as much as we'd like to - don't have first-hand exposure to, or knowledge of. Manually overriding them without that knowledge doesn't feel like a good move, as much as we understand it's a challenging situation for a lot of people. We will continue to monitor, but it opens all manner of cans of worms to manually adjust one or two prices without doing them all. I think it's been a while since Steam have changed this pricing matrix too, which might explain why it's quite sharp in some cases.

    There's also an argument to suggest that some players of other games on Steam might use VPNs to purchase content in a country in which the pricing is more favourable, which might explain some of the more drastic changes to 'equalise' these prices. It's more my gut feel on this one, rather than anything concrete, but it's worth bearing in mind.
     
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  46. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Looking through the comments, I think you're probably discussing the same thing in slightly different terms. Price is objective, whilst value is subjective. If you don't see the value, that's absolutely fine. But others might do.

    I'd suggest at this stage you agree to disagree, rather than continue this line of discussion.
     
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  47. JD people can talk about the price freedom of speech yeah we all not happy about the price hike but if u going to make shore we get what we play for then its fine but if it keeps going on the way it has over the past 12 plus months now then sorry its not worth the almost extra $20 australian price
     
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  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. I have been quite vocal that BCC isn't worth £30 and will wait for a sale but the TSC Turkish route will be Day 1 even if £34.99. As you say subjective, but then I will take loud diesels across a single track mountain route over an electric commuter route any day.
     
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  49. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    I just don't think you should have sold this at an increased price without an additional DLC or the Depot added to it and it is not only me saying this..

    It's my local route, I'm 2 miles down the road from Daisy (10 years of friendship) and respect that she has put an incredible amount of hard work into this, so this has nothing to do with the route itself. However, I am expressing my disappointment in the price your company is charging. The workmanship otherwise, I am happy with as stated in this comment.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
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  50. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Isn't this practice illegal on Steam? Because I am pretty sure it is.

    As for the prices, of course, it is difficult to tell exactly how to set prices, but it's something that could probably be a bit regulated as a move, not a crazy price jump, but rather a number of slight increases to match the prices gradually. If you see a price in X country increase multiple times, that's where you could set the amount a bit lower manually.
     
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