PC Penalty Braking When Approaching Lichfield

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by breblimator, Nov 24, 2022.

  1. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Every time I am approaching Lichfield City station I receive a 'penalty braking'. How to :)
     
  2. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I checked and I have not run anything into Litchfield yet, so will do a run later today and see what happens. I will try various speeds by saving a short way out and if I get tripped, then do it again at slower speed until I find one that works.
     
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  3. Phil567

    Phil567 New Member

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    I approached at around 20mph still got a penalty brake application!
     
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  4. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    I have been having this too and saw a lot of people talking about it on Facebook and Discord.

    My understanding is that this is the TPWS overspeed sensors.

    My next question was, well why do I play all the other British routes without having these kind of penalty brakes? Apparently, this route and the updated SEHS are the only ones that have these TPWS/overspeeds implemented.

    I've never had a penalty brake for speed on SEHS, but I do have them on BCC including this well known one at Lichfield. It seems to emergency brake me even when I am going pretty slow, like slow enough that there would be no chance I'd miss the station.

    Looking into how these systems work, it seems like there is no indication to the driver what the actual speed they should be going is. Unlike the German systems which basically tell you exactly what speed you should be going in any given signal or mode. I guess under the British system, route knowledge and training are what you go by and basically "don't go an unreasonable speed". This Lichfield sensor seems to trip e-brakes even when you are going what I'd consider a reasonable speed.

    So, the question now would be is that realistic, how it is set up in real life and we just need to crawl into the station? Or is it set too low in the game and needs to be fixed in a patch? Worth submitting a ticket I guess, unless someone who knows more about the systems or that route can chime in.

    Another one I had questions about is in the video below:



    So I was running a freight service, 6M96, which is steel wagons and I think about 1900t, heading from Bromsgrove to Kings Norton.

    I pass a yellow signal (not in video) so I know I should be going a reasonable speed. When I am about a mile from Kings Norton, there is a red signal ahead, but I only know that because the HUD is turned on, I can't actually see the signal. When that signal is 818yds away, and I am going 28mph, the system penalty brakes me due to speed sensor.

    Now, is that a bug or realistic? I don't know. It seems like 28mph isn't an unsafe speed for a red that's still 818yds away. But is the TPWS super strict for freight service? I don't know. But I am curious to find out, what actual speed should I be running a freight train under yellow signal? Seems like lower than 28mph, but is that realistic or an error?

    Excuse the tag but maybe DTG Matt or another guru can chime in.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2022
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  5. owenroser19

    owenroser19 Well-Known Member

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    It’s the TPWS making sure you’re not going too fast. In this instance the magnets are broken and it forces a brake on you no matter what speed you’re doing. Really hope they fix this
     
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  6. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    I just remembered that, unlike a lot of releases, BCC actually has a manual. Here is what it says about OSS sensors:
    https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/...Cross-City_Manual_V1.0_ENG_2.pdf?t=1668700773

     
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  7. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Nice find!!
    I had gotten a penalty application approaching the buffer at Redditch, and now i know why.


    Also props to DTG for reintroducing manuals for TSW3- i really appreciate the effort that goes into them. This one even has a railfan guide for the uniquely numbered 323's. Nice touch!!!

    Back on topic, is TPWS activated when you turn on AWS, or is there a separate toggle?
     
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  8. owenroser19

    owenroser19 Well-Known Member

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    There is a temporary isolation but I believe it can just be left off. (you wouldn’t do that in real life).
     
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  9. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Just ran into this bug approaching Lichfield City with the RHTT. Thought I was going too fast (13mph) but it turns out its broken.
     
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  10. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I really hope that the trend of manuals for TSW3 routes continues and isnt just a flash in the pan. They really do add something to the routes, and I especially love the list of trainset and the tickbox table.
     
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  11. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I just went over the magnets at 15 mph in the 323 and did not trip it.
     
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  12. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I went over it with green signals ahead (i.e. no approach control) well within the speed limit and at a perfectly appropriate speed for the station and it triggered. It’s definitely bugged.

    Next time I’ll have to try and remember to push the train stop override on the TPWS and see if that works.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
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  13. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    The TPWS temporary isolation switch does what it says on the tin. Right hand side of cab - just above the secondmans desk.
     
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  14. Dux of Fatumnia

    Dux of Fatumnia New Member

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    In the UK, I believe the rule is that Drivers should approach buffer stops at a speed no higher than 15 mph.

    When I approach the station at that speed, I do not get a penalty brake either.
     
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  15. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Of course, the TPWS in question is at a junction just before the station, and is to make sure you have slowed to a safe speed through the switches.
     
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  16. squerble

    squerble Active Member

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    Sure, and it's approaching a 20mph limit (from the current 40/45mph limit over the OSS grids). But, it still triggers at 20mph, which isn't right when we're approaching a yellow and still have a good 100yd to run before the actual 20mph limit.
     
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  17. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone tried running through it at different speeds to identify precisely what's going on? Does it still activate if you crawl through it at 1MPH?
     
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  18. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    On approach to buffer stops you need to go at no more than 10mph over the TPWS grids to avoid a TPWS activation. That is true in real life, and according to the manual is also true in the game.
     
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  19. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    10 mph mate.

    * Edit: Sorry didn't see the comment above also correcting the mistake.
     
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  20. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Thank You for the answers. It looks lovely solved and the lesson was learned. BR o7
     
  21. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I have noted, as long as I am under 15 mph over those magnets approaching Litchfield City, no problems. If I get tripped, throttle to center, reverser to off, reverser back to neutral then forward and advance throttle, and its off you go. I can usually do these steps before the speed get much below 10mph.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2022
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  22. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Bescot - I hadn't realised the TPWS temporary isolation switch was functional until you pointed it out (I should have thought to try it really...)

    I isolate the TPWS on every journey now. It takes nothing away from the immersion, because TPWS is designed as an unobtrusive system, so if you're driving in a realistic way (which is my preferred way of playing the game) it doesn't do anything anyway. Isolating it at the start of each journey means you don't have to worry about TPWS activations when travelling at a perfectly sensible speed, and has no downsides from my perspective.
     
  23. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I just slow down to 15 mph as I approach the defective one prior to Litchfield City and don't have any issues going over it. As for the rest of the TPWS traps on the route, have never tripped a single one.
     
  24. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    Just been over those at 20mph, no trigger (however, I have been stopped by them before doing 30~ ish I think, slowing from the 45 to the 20).
     
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  25. marcsharp2

    marcsharp2 Well-Known Member

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    It also hits when coming too quick into Redditch as well as going far too fast in the section coming up to a red signal. The Lichfield one is annoying as twice my brakes have been on when coming to the 20mph section, plenty of time to slow but I get hit with the penalty brake. So I now switch AWS off on the approach to Lichfield City.
     
  26. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    Me neither, but that's due to a fair amount of creeping around unnecessarily slowly in the vicinity of TPWS grids to avoid activations!

    To an extent that's realistic. In real life the speeds are set based on the braking capabilities of much older stock (they were set for the stock with the least powerful brakes when the system was first installed, and have never been changed since), so if you have a modern train with a powerful brake, you can't properly utilise the brake at speed restrictions protected by TPWS, because you'll get an activation. A lot of real life Drivers (particularly those who were driving before TPWS was introduced) find the system very annoying, as it greatly reduces the potential to drive 'harder' when running late to recover time. The 10mph limit so far away from buffer stops, in particular, enforces a ridiculously long crawl along the platform which costs a lot of time, and in some cases (at termini on a rising gradient) forces the Driver to take power between the TPWS grids and the buffer stops just to get there - which is pretty undesirable.

    Having said all of that, although TPWS is a unsophisticated system and very much a 'blunt instrument' it has undoubtedly prevented a certain number of accidents since its introduction (how many, we will never know) and I wouldn't want the real railway to be without it now.

    On TSW, I don't find the knowledge that it's active to really add anything to the experience, and without the confidence that the trigger speeds are set up realistically, I find it an irritation. Still, it's good that we have the ability to isolate it, so that we can choose whether to have it active or not.
     
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  27. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    OK, just ran into Litchfield City, over the TPSW magnets, at just under 30 mph and it did not stop me, so guess it's fixed.
     
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  28. squerble

    squerble Active Member

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    Another +1 from me. Just did a run up to LTV and the TPWS just before Litchfield City seems way more "normal" and natural.
     
  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    However, the bumper protection loop at Redditch is still 10 mph, so be warned
     
  30. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the Lichfield TPWS is definitely bugg(er)ed. I usually tiptoe over it at 15 mph which is plain silly on green signals, even if there’s a moderate speed reduction ahead, but it’s the only way to avoid a penalty besides overriding/disabling that particular safety system.

    Edit: This phenomenon in fact dates back many centuries, the first known record of which is from a traveller’s account from early medieval times:
    A league fro Lichefeld toun the chape slowe without cause, and the horsis weren maad feble litil. It semeth to be seyn, that the whippe reiside the SPWS, and hurtlide doun the reynes.

    An approximate translation of this Middle English extract would equate to:
    A league from Lichfield town the coach did slow without good reason yet the horses were fatigued little. It seems an excess of the whip did trigger the SPWS, which caused pain to the rear.

    The SPWS being the “Stagecoach Protection and Warning System”, a predecessor of the modern equivalent for trains, and evidently a pain in the rear even then.

    And if you believe that, you’ll believe anything! ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2023
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  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Redbus wins the Internet today
     

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