PC Br403 Ice3 Lzb Training - Afb Bad Advice

Discussion in 'TSW Troubleshooting & Issues Discussion' started by Dakota, Nov 19, 2022.

  1. Dakota

    Dakota Member

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    As you arrive at the end of this, after successfully ENDE-ing the LZB (no longer flashing) you get two separate “Move the AFB lever to 0” instructions. Probably an error.

    If you do move it to 0, the train stops immediately and cannot be moved. Drove this newcomer buggy. Turns out the AFB must be turned off via the Left MFD before moving the lever to 0. Even though the LZB has ENDEd and been acknowledged (no longer flashing) and the ENDE light subsequently turned off, the AFB still controls the loco speed until it is turned off in the Left MFD (0 key).

    Maybe this is a bug or maybe not. I don’t know how it is supposed to act IRL.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2022
  2. Woroszyl The NS 2000

    Woroszyl The NS 2000 Well-Known Member

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    That's intentional, as i use AFB on all german routes so i don't overspeed.
     
  3. Dakota

    Dakota Member

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    Me too.
     
  4. bdobronz1968

    bdobronz1968 Active Member

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    You can execute LZB ending like you described (I also did when I started to use LZB in TSW2 on SKA), but it is also possible to let AFB enabled:
    When the ENDE light is flushing, you acknowledge it, after that it will light constantly.
    As long as the ENDE light is on, AFB controlles the speed of the train as usual.
    When the ENDE light goes out, you need to set the power lever to 0 and than set the AFB lever to 0, too, but after that immediatly back to the allowed speed.
    You can simultaneously increase power back if you like.
    The faster you execute the AFB lever operation, the less speed you will loose.
    It needs a little bit of practice to handle it, but works pretty well and as far as I know it is the usual way to do it in case of LZB Ende. But if someone knows better, please drop a comment.
     
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  5. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    bdobronz1968 is right, imho, except that the power lever does not necessarily need to be set to zero during the end procedure and the transitioning to PZB.
    The requirement of setting the AFB to zero ("Nullstellung") after the release is set out in the directive 483 module 0202, section 3 (20e), on page 37:
    upload_2022-11-26_21-46-40.png
    upload_2022-11-26_21-47-16.png
    I totally agree that this can be done without losing much speed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022
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  6. bdobronz1968

    bdobronz1968 Active Member

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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No need for that; just reset the AFB handle quickly and you'll only have a mild speed hiccup. (One of the few cases where the mouse is actually faster than the keyboard.

    Where the instruction is wrong is telling you to pull it to "0" when you need to pull it all the way to "Off."
     
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  8. li150special

    li150special Well-Known Member

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    That is an interesting point. I will try it. If I recall correctly, I always used to do it like this, based on an official SKA video with the 406 (but it should work the same way).

    Confirm LZB Ende
    Disable AFB (push 9 and 1 on the left screen)
    Reduce power to 0
    Push AFB lever to full (i.e. 330 kph), which does not do harm since power is 0
    Wait for LZB Ende sign
    Enable AFB (push 9 and 6 on the left screen)
    Move AFB lever to 160 kph (or max speed applicable at the route in question)
    Move power lever to desired notch

    I may be mistaken but I think that was in line with what Matt explained the differences about enabling AFB when stationary
    to enabling AFB when moving.

    This would contradict the DB directive, would it not? Or is it an additional requirement, i.e. putting AFB to off first and then to full (i.e. 330 kph)?
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2023
  9. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Matt was simply wrong. There is no need at all to switch AFB off; just zero it.
     
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  10. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    li150special, solicitr is right. Matt was wrong or rather working around TSW’s incorrectly modelled AFB/LZB interlock. In real life, the AFB lever is moved to 0, then back to track speed (tygerways#2596 provided the appropriate Ril). *AFB is deaf to any inputs for a few seconds after LZB supervision ends, which is why there is no sudden brake application by following the procedure.

    *: This is not modelled in TSW and that’s why the official procedure seems weird in the game. In TSW, you do get that unwanted sudden brake application. Matt was working around that by just disabling AFB.

    I think Matt acknowledged that the team was unaware of this deaf-period in a discussion I had with him back in the day. I’m sure you can find it if you dig around on the forums.
     
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  11. li150special

    li150special Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much. It is quite a challenge for me to get my head around all the PZB and LZB stuff. But that's what makes the game still interesting for me.

    Again, thanks!
     
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  12. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    The English Zusi manual is available online. Well, part of it - you get 100 of 150 pages in English without buying Zusi (full German manual is 850 pages). It's probably not always easy to understand but should be a good reference for learning about more in-depth features of German railroading.
     
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  13. li150special

    li150special Well-Known Member

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    Great. I will have a look.

    Because I speak German, I also looked a lot into the TF Ausbildung website for reference.(https://www.tf-ausbildung.de/). For example, it was very helpful to interpret the Hl signals at DRA. Also, PZB and Geschwindigkeitsprüfabschnitte are explained in-depth there.
     
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  14. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Ah, that greatly simplifies things. TF-Ausbildung is a great quick-reference. You can easily find the official Ril for PZB and LZB via Google, if you want to learn straight from the source. There are also various German forums with in-depth discussion if it’s a specific question you’re looking for.
     
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