Train Sim World Winter Survey

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Alex, Dec 19, 2022.

  1. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    ...just participated: it's certainly no secret that the Netherlands deserve an own route and we need a realistic photo mode feature. It could be realized in a shorter period of time. An editor like in TSC would be too complicated for the majority of players and modders already have enough tools at their disposal. While VR or Multiplayer support would be an optional feature, which can only be introduced from a possible TSW4, when hardware performance has made a further leap or there will be TSW version in the Metaverse soon. ;)
     
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  2. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    At least there was no option for "More expensive, but guaranteed to maintain the high number of bugs we are famous for".
     
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  3. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

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    I mean, who is going to say "Yes I like paying more for things!"

    Statistics is a very interesting field, precisely for these kinds of reason. I found the question on fictional routes to be very satisfying because DTG knew that most of us would only have wanted realistic routes (since that is what they are known for) but they made sure to ask that question JUST AFTER giving us a fictional route to play around with to see how we might have found it, which would definitely have opened the eyes of some here (it did to me, and I didn't even buy the DLC!), and probably made for a different result now that we know what a fictional route would be like.

    It is interesting that multiplayer was an option here, because I think it was omitted last year because DTG knew it would become the top of the list every time. Maybe they just want to confirm this? I don't know.
     
  4. antony.henley

    antony.henley Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that if there ever was an editor it would be PC only thus leaving the console owners high and dry.
    Having a decent scenario editor where we are not constrained by only a certain amount of start points, limited pathways and length of trains and not being able to populate the route yards etc etc with wagons and locos would go a long way.

    Would a better scenario creator for PC and console be better than a route editor say for just PC. Where it benefits everyone?

    Hentis
     
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  5. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    It would be nice to have the option to copy services from the timetable into the scenario.
    Also, the author should be able to create a more complex script than "take this train from XXX to YYY".
     
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  6. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    What I would understand by a 100% route editor is that you can build a complete route yourself. Starting with laying the tracks, to the landscaping and placing the trains. Exactly what DTG or third parties do and need about half a year for, including beta testing. Would indirectly be a complete developer tool set. So rather unlikely for average players, not only on consoles.

    I am also of the opinion that the current scenario editor can still be expanded. A Coupling tool would be a nice addition to create your own train sets and would also boost the motivation. For example a BR204 with n-wagons in regional traffic! ;)

    BR204 HDX b.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2022
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  7. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    Completed. The editor is still my highest priority. Multiplayer would be nice, but not nearly as important as the editor.

    I wouldn't mind higher prices and longer development time if the end product was more polished and functionally correct. Right now things just seem rushed and there isn't enough time to lock in fixes
     
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  8. Shackamaxon

    Shackamaxon Well-Known Member

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    Is it just me or does someone else shares the view that asking 'How much steam do you want ?' is an awkward question !
    Isn't it pretty obvious that SOS is so far the most successful DLC in the TSW Universe ?

    Looking forward to the historic stuff !
     
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  9. ffabio89

    ffabio89 Active Member

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    The same thing I think!

    And I've complete the survey too, another time I've put the editor at the first place but with a suggestion to complete first the actual tools
     
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  10. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    We definitely need more historic steam trains! You don't have to be a prophet to see the BR52 or Big Boy steaming on the horizon. :cool:
     
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  11. AtherianKing

    AtherianKing Well-Known Member

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    Completed the survey, some quite difficult choices to make, sometimes I think a feature is important but then I see another 10 important ones an it ends up dropping from where I think at about 3 place down to 13th.

    I ticked that I play “bus sim” a little as I counted that as Bus Sim 21 (wasn’t to sure whether that was a pc only game stated in the survey as I only play on console so most of that list was excluded)

    a few changes to the survey I think would be important is splitting up U.K. into its 4 Countries, I think it would help in separating England/Scotland and Wales etc players who favour their own country routes to be seen more. (The same could probably be helpful for States in the US)

    It’s a bit like putting in the EU as an option instead of the 26 countries it’s to do with and seeing they all are interested in their home routes so let’s do lots of German but they could be a majority from France or somewhere else who ticked that option and their option for home country routes.


    And another change in whether you play games, it was only “a little” “a lot” or “non”, I do play cities skylines but not a lot (like a ton of hours regularly) or a little so it was difficult how to state that.

    feature was a difficult one to decide so I went with connecting routes up that work (like RSN and RRO)
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2022
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  12. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    They just need to sort out the appalling physics implementation.

    Actually it's strange the poll asked about steam era routes but I can't recall seeing a question about more classic - 1968 to 1990 UK diesel or electric routes.
     
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  13. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the survey generally

    Spirit of Steam was the only route I marked as 'poor' in the survey - this is primarily down to three significant issues:

    1) Physics issues
    2) Timetable is impossible to keep time to as it uses pre-calculated rather than 'real' timings
    3) Timetable is unbelievably empty and in dire need of local services, pick-up freight and shunting activities

    As such, despite the beautiful modelling, route building and lighting, it's the only route I'd describe as unplayable at the moment.

    All others got 'average' or 'good' from me. Nothing qualified as 'excellent' as every route is missing at least one crucial factor in my eyes (length, timetable density / variety or loco density / variety).

    The survey in general is really good to see though. One of the areas I think that I'm slightly different from others is that I said I'd be happy paying more for routes if they were higher quality (by which I mean more content - longer, more trains). I'd pay £70 for WCML London - Crewe if it came with 390, 350 and 378 (or 710) as well as Birmingham, Trent Valley + Northampton routes/branches.

    Some points on steam

    - Spirit of Steam sold way more than any other DLC, but DTG are still figuring out if this was just a release of pent up demand or if this is something that might continue into the future (this is from conversations with Matt but I think the same has already been said on stream at some point). My personal feeling is that steam is clearly popular once it's done right as there's a whole cottage industry of UK steam-related TSC add-ons (Steam Sounds Supreme and Golden Age Developments are publishing high-quality content among many, many others). If I were DTG I'd be having a conversation with GA about bringing their West of England or Dorset Coast routes to TSW - that would be truly magical.

    - The physics fix (and possibly the manual firing update) would need to be in place before we see further new steam content which makes sense. I think DTG have said that it should be rolled out in January with manual firing later.

    - From a physics point of view, it's quite easy to set up further steam locomotives as they all share very similar methods of power generation / transfer so you'd just have to adjust the numbers in an existing Simugraph instance rather than build a new one from the ground up like with most new locos - so maybe we could see the floodgates open once the physics issues are sorted
     
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  14. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Multiplayer is an interesting question. It wasn’t in the last survey because it was already being worked on and a sure fire top interest option (I put it next to last, just above VR in case anyone’s remotely interested) but then it was stated that it was never going to work and thus abandoned. Now it’s back on the survey along with ‘the editor’ that is also likely never going to happen. When I say never I mean in the near future.

    It is hard to prioritise different features, pricing levels, detail, interest, length of route and such but that’s the beauty of the survey. I’m sure if I was to repeat it now I’d give slightly different answers, because they are all fluid. What I am most concerned with is to not have trains with such bad physics that make them all but unusable, such as we got in Horseshoe Curve. The route got a ‘poor’ rating from me but it is only down to the train and not the actual route which is great. The trains need to be good above all else I would say.

    And not specifically on the survey but Scenario Planner needs a kick up the posterior, especially the paths and options that are put in each route, which are sadly lacking and often preposterous. Every recent route I’ve tried has had me swapping tracks to wrong way running for parts of the route, because the paths look like they have been taken from those special scenarios (where that happens for a reason) rather than normal timetable paths.

    I was going to write in the ‘what new feature do you want’ that I didn’t want any new features specifically but the features that do come need to be full features, not half features with a promised later improvement that never actually comes. I didn’t put that, so I’m putting it here instead.
     
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  15. once again a waste of time knowing they will never fix the real issues that have been how long outstanding hmmm i cant remember now i giving up on trying to get them to fix stuff NPC's Signals memory issues Sounds issues Freezing spiking issues list goes on like a list as long as the training centre
     
  16. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I can't help thinking steams a dead pony that's hard to resuscitate.

    I equally wonder that if these surveys, used to measure shift on opinion are effectively deployed annually, surely to have a workable metric you'd do them quarterly?
     
  17. traincloud

    traincloud Member

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    Frankly I've never quite understood why people want the MMORPG experience in a train sim.
    *Everybody plays what they want to play, exactly how they want it* -
    A few friends and I would have great fun locally but a random server would be a crapshoot, with everyone playing in different ways. Serious players would get angry not being able to follow the rules and casuals would be annoyed because others would try to constrain them, not even discussing the trolls. There'd end up being so many types of servers for everyone's playstyles that most people would be basically alone anyway -_-
    Focus on new content, then, maybe one day...
     
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  18. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    Lots of dead ponies, BR blue stuff, Canadian routes, BML rush hour pax, French routes and Steam maybe? Only DB fans get a full timetable but using another German Simulator even this in TSW is empty. What seems to sell is privatision era UK content regardless of lacking variety, heavy US freight and DB Dosto based flat runs. Those of us asking for dynamic routes and random events are met with some no replies and can we have livery editor/multiplayer(despite no control over the dispatcher)/VR. Not to mention a full ECML for £9.99....
     
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  19. Your submission isn't public is it? I don't wanna get lynched by the community!
     
  20. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    BR Blue could well be dead given sales for it are some of the lowest in the franchise as far as I'm aware (the loco add-ons were even worse in this aspect I think).

    I think some of this might be just down to how early in the franchise they were released though - from a UK point of view they're the difficult second album. I'd be up for seeing another BR Blue route as long as it was actually busy! A Joe timetable would go a LONG way to fixing the issues with the existing routes too.

    Some sort of BR London third rail commuter route set in the 1980s where existing content can plentifully layer in would be great. Maybe DTG can bring Broad Street back from the dead?

    Steam is alive and well though given the sales situation - just dozing gently in the corner after too many mince pies while mum fixes the physics (this metaphor got away from me).
     
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  21. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    There was Error 502 for me when clicking on "Done" at the last page, but after going back in history to the previous page, confirming resubmitting the form and filling again 2 of the last pages which were blanked (3rd page from the last was filled, so I didn't check back further) it went through. I hope it was sent correctly despite the initial 502 problem.

    After filling why I haven't bought TSW3 yet on one page, which I guess was correctly branched from the answer on the previous page, on the following page around half of the routes to rate were TSW3 exclusive, but completely missing IoW2022, which is available for TSW2 and was released this year...
     
  22. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    The good thing is that some classic steam locomotives already exist as detailed 3D models for TSC, i.e. you don't have to start from scratch. It's mainly about physics programming, that's true. SOS was certainly extremely complex to program in the UE4, but in the end it became a real highlight and can serve as a blueprint. It is also true that no new steam locomotives have been announced after SOS. Probably because the implementation remains more difficult than with electric or diesel. But if you've known DTG longer, you know that when you can't hear anything, there's always something brewing. After all, the question about steam was not asked for nothing in the survey... ;)
     
  23. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I agree of the two choices between the editor and multiplayer would both be good adds to the game. The editor needs to be the first to be available then multiplayer down the line.

    As for not minding paying higher prices for better quality that would have to depend on how much of increase. With the two last releases on Steam I had to pay $51.99CAD + tax which brought my total purchase for a single route to #58.23CAD. When prior routes were releasing for #33.99CAD + tax bringing it to #38.07CAD. The length and quality of the route would really need to justify and $20.00CAD increase in price.
     
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  24. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Did the survey and I wanted hump yard physics and new Austrian and Australian routes that means Perth Mandurah Line via Wellard Railway station. ÖBB Wien Salzburg
     
  25. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Not as simple as a port from tsc to tsw. In fact, not even a port since it still needs to be remade and retextured, be more high res, etc to make it tsw standard
     
  26. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    Quite the opposite.

    It's the difference between taking a micro and macro view. The results we get from this survey will help us make decisions over the next couple of years, just as previous surveys are continuing to impact what we work on today. Consider the Training Center as one example - that's the oucome of work through player testing and surveying two years ago.

    There is a notable difference in time perspective switching from the player side to the developer. Take fixes and updates as a prime example. If a week or even a month ticks past with no remedy in sight it can seem like nothing is being done. Then switch to a macro view and look over 12-18 months and there are hundreds if not thousands of fixes, tweaks, updates and improvements that have been released. Of course we'd rather this timeframe were shorter, but that's just not how game development works. There isn't a single member of the team who doesn't know what they're scheduled to work on over the coming 3 months, often beyond that.. Always subject to change - especially when things don't quite go to plan - but you can't just make this up on the spur of the moment.

    When we're looking at new features or routes they take a long time to bring into the game. The survey is the indication of where to go. When we'll get there is an entirely different matter.
     
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  27. Pinguinie

    Pinguinie Active Member

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    As you can already read in the team's answers from summer 2022, there will never be an MP. That was officially confirmed. Why DTG is kidding people again, there is no other way to put it, remains their secret.

    And SimRail's MP isn't an MP. You can neither meet personally anywhere, nor travel with them, nor take turns riding together on a train. e.g. each one stop. Unfortunately, the controls are also really bad for keyboard players. If you press the brakes for just a tenth of a second too long, the entire train comes to a standstill. Therefore one would have hoped for DTG, but after more than 12 years of development one can assume that DTG will never manage to be innovative.
     
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  28. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    What I'm taking from this Sam is that ECML is coming :D:D:D

    Appreciate the explanation though, thank you.
     
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  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    That has been addressed in the latest update. The 3 key now gradually applies the brakes between initial and full service.

    With real players operating signalboxes and driving the trains, it's about as MP as the genre can get.
     
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  30. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    ...true, of course, but the retexturing is still the easiest part. The programming and the testing process, until everything corresponds to the original, remains the most complex.

    By the way, large parts of the 3D model are certainly taken directly from the original 3D file, where it was created. If then it will be regrouped and provided with materials later. Certainly additional new 3D details will be built in, which have been neglected in TSC so far. But at least you have a base model available. But that's too much insider tech blah for the forum... ;)
     
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  31. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    Considering how big BR blue is in the model scene it seems odd. I guess though the middle aged modelling crowd and the younger train sim crowd are a different market and in the sales figures maybe for BR blue there is no market then. It helps manage my expectations knowing its over for BR 80s and 90s fans and we can look forward to more broken railway era releases
     
  32. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    I agree and there are existing routes that can be extended to the Netherlands. First up is HRR extended to the Netherlands via Oberhausen Hbf becoming Hollandstrecke Duisburg/Bochum-Utrecht HDBU and Bremen Oldenburg becoming HBGR Hollandstrecke Bremen Groningen via Bad Nieuwschans & Leer. Changes Bremen Oldenburg with a Bremen Groningen Train having to be stuck on a train convoy from Delmenhorst to Bremen Hbf
     
  33. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    BR blue is also well represented in the creation centre, there are a lot of stock that have huge amounts of liveries from that era, with the HST still to come. If they built that era out a bit it would be great, but they might want to look into how to make different scenery sets for the routes, like the mods for Diesel Legends.
     
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  34. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Well-Known Member

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    It's time to finally make The Netherlands happen as a country, my dudes. I understand the initial investment is big, but there is so much potential content there.
     
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  35. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    Survey done but I have two questions/suggestions about it.
    1. I know this has been mentioned already but I am also going to ask why, in this case, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have been grouped into one country (UK) because it would make it a lot clearer to DTG, for example, the people who would be interested in some Welsh routes rather than the much more general UK term used currently. Also as an Englishman I have no interest in seeing NI routes but when DTG read this survey in theory I will.
    2. Like you have a ranking for most to least desirable features why not include something similar with eras as I, like others on here would love to see more true BR blue routes (70s/80s), like NTP (not like the mixed eras of WCL or Diesel Legends). This would be important as it would give feedback of the current audience because due to a natural increase of the player base it just isn't fair to compare NTP sales to something like BCC which has all the mod cons so to speak. Also it isn't entirely fair for DTG to base decisions on how much people play NTP to LBN or BCC as there are many more services and variety to services and in BCC case it is brand new and, like I say, has all the mod cons. In short I think another true BR blue route would sell much better than DTG think and I would be more than willing to buy one without a doubt and I am sure others would be willing to join me.

    Just to be clear this isn't a moan just what has stuck out in my mind after doing the survey as overall I am very pleased with progress this year even though there have only been two proper brand new British routes. I just pray that DTG can take the quality of BCC and implement it into the hopefully many, new British routes of the future (preferably with some more BR Blue locos and the Eastern region stuff as well).
     
  36. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't care less about multiplayer or VR. Honestly the core gameplay of TSW is completely fine for me. I'm not really interested in new features. The only one I suggested in the survey was that after closing the doors you'd actually have the guard buzzer sound in the cab, and you'd have to acknowledge it before departing. I'm tired of having to play make believe with it, and I think small details like that are what will truly improve the game.

    I'd also really like more in depth exploration in the stations. Like I want to be able to walk inside shops and see an NPC standing at a counter. Maybe even order a coffee and have a very video gamey power up like a faster walking speed. Or just have interactive help points that play a pre recorded message, like "the next train will arrive in x minutes". Wish I'd thought of all this when I was actually doing the survey...
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2022
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  37. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    I'd be far more interested in BR Blue, or any historical period, if it depicted now closed routes/ stations. As it stands my initial reaction to a historic route is always "shame it's not modern". But if DTG really did do a route into Broad Street then it would immediately grab my attention.
     
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  38. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    What makes the Netherlands more deserving than every other country that hasn't been involved in TSW yet?
     
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  39. Shackamaxon

    Shackamaxon Well-Known Member

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    I want to be on this train of thought :)
    How'd you deduce that ?
     
  40. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    It's all subliminal....... one of them will crack if we all try hard enough
    ;)
    Extended , Controlled , Mind , language is what we're calling it:cool:
     
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  41. Shackamaxon

    Shackamaxon Well-Known Member

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    Nice one lol...
     
  42. TSW Nathan

    TSW Nathan Well-Known Member

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    Just completed the survey. Very good. I hope you read my responses. :)
     
  43. antony.henley

    antony.henley Well-Known Member

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    Regarding BR blue. It would be welcome but it needs the return from the community.
    For example take the last couple of modernish UK routes. SEHS and BCC. They featured one British Freight loco. Yes the lovely class 66. Which alot of us have shown some artistic love on creating so many liveries for. Yet we do still have heritage diesel's that run freight on our network. Class 50's, 56, 47, 37, 73's and more modenish class 60, 67's, 68's and 69's 92's 90's not sure if freightliner is still running their 86's. Yes this will involve getting licences from other TOC's to use their livery. But not so with the heritage locos as long as they are in BR livery. Unless the BR livery licence is for that class of locomotive. This is also where loco dlc packs for routes would come in handy.
    Hopefully now with the addition of Just Trains and AT we might get to see some of their TSC back catalogue of not only routes but Locomotives and rolling stock come to TSW.

    Hentis
     
  44. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    I think there are a lot of TSW fans and in recent years the Netherlands has always led just ahead of Australia in the polls. But if I were a Czech I would of course want a Czech route. In the end it will probably end up being a 3rd party developer since DTG serves US, UK and Germany for its core audience.
     
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  45. OnlyMe1909

    OnlyMe1909 Well-Known Member

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    Survey completed. I know you can't disclose full results of these, but I would appreciate that the general results of this would be a topic in the first Roadmap stream of the new year.
     
  46. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    Player's walking or running speed is by default already faster than it would be in reality, with the running speed being something around 15MPH (tested next to an AI train on WSR), so around twice as fast.
    Well, I'm Polish, but I chose Australia as new country (no specific route) and Japanese suburban route with a branch when asked about a specific route next. You may guess that "own country" was also lower in my add-on interests than "other countries".

    I think in the past the question about new countries was more plural and the field to answer was multirow to elaborate why. This year it was about a single country with short answer, but with another question about a route, you could actually pick 2 very different countries.
     
  47. marcsharp2

    marcsharp2 Well-Known Member

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  48. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    I would also prefer another continent, like Australia. Already for scenic reasons. No matter in which country you are in Europe, the vegetation and landscape are very similar. That's why I love the US routes, like CJP or SMH, because they look different.
     
  49. robert.miller

    robert.miller Member

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    In the survey I (and probably many others) wanted to see my local route in any future DLCs, this being the Airedale and Wharfedale lines in Yorkshire. However I really do think its time for a Deltic and Valenta engined HST.
     
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  50. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    I was only being semi serious when I suggested that. Just an offhand example. And besides, the player's walking speed is probably the one thing in TSW I don't want to be realistic. If we had it my way we'd be sprinting up and down platforms like Usain Bolt.
     

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