PC 2023, No Train Sim World 4

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by solon, Jan 10, 2023.

  1. solon

    solon Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2018
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    174
    Hello,
    A somewhat provocative title to give feedback on the obligation to have to reinstall a new version of TSW each year. I admit that the transition from TSW2 to TSW3 just bored me.
    Having to remove all content from TSW2, then reinstall everything with 3 when we don't have very high speed internet takes hours, if not days. And then we have to reconfigure everything.

    For me it's over. I have other simulators where the updates are added to the previous ones and where we don't have to reinstall everything.

    I really appreciate your work DTG, TSW is a great technological advance that promotes immersion in the world of trains. But I won't spend this year on a new version of TSW, if everything has to be deleted once again from the old one.
     
    • Like Like x 19
  2. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    3,312
    Likes Received:
    8,665
    Have to agree. These constant re-releases need to stop.
     
    • Like Like x 9
  3. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2022
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Waiting for days while I hog all the bandwidth isn't fun, so I would like to stick with one download. Of course I understand that TSW2 was made to facilitate the big jump from UE 4.16 to 4.23, but TSW3 didn't seem to have quite the same justification. We could do something that happened in TSClassic where it was rebranded every year to bring in new customers, with the starter packs/summer bundles being the new core routes for the new customers, while existing ones would pay for it.

    So while it may be impractical to stop releasing brand-new iterations of TSW as separate downloads, it may be ok every 4-5 years or something, just to keep up with technology.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,488
    Likes Received:
    3,270
    I fully agree. Not only because of the download trouble, but also because you loose progress, mods no longer work and so on. Also because it forces users to buy the new core if you want any new DLC. This policy is bad and very unfriendly for the players.
     
    • Like Like x 14
  5. Trainzrule

    Trainzrule Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2022
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    66
    I don't think we should be expecting TSW4 in 2023, right? The release cycle seems to be a new full version every two years and a route bundle in between.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2022
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    TSW1 was made in 2017, and lasted through 2018, and 2019.
    TSW2 (when I joined) was made in 2020 and lasted through 2021.
    TSW3 was made in 2022, so while it may seem like a new release every two years, it seems to me like the lifespan of releases is decreasing to TSC levels.

    Then again, I might just be getting paranoid, and you may be right. This is all speculation (which is handy for DTG because they have been planning their summer release for 2023 ever since TSW3 was [officially] announced.)
     
  7. deeuu#6908

    deeuu#6908 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2021
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    916
    I'm fairly sure, at least on xbox, that all my TSW2 addons and settings transferred over when I installed TSW3.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,907
    Likes Received:
    23,925
    I suspect TSW4 will be a 2024 or even 2025 iteration of the game.
    We weren't really expecting TSW3, it was supposed to be a "pause" while they worked on the backlog of bugs and fixes to TSW2 and its content but then morphed into the next version of the game. However I do think DTG now need to keep faith with their customer base and even significant changes - such as improvements to night lighting as being discussed elsewhere - need to be rolled out to the existing version, not used to justify TSW4.
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  9. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2022
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    They did, but I suspect (I can't be sure) that TSW2020 progress didn't carry over to TSW2 because DTG didn't plan on carrying it over until the community forced them to.
     
  10. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    688
    Likes Received:
    750
    Previously it's been a new set of routes. So 2024 would be next installment of TSW unless the cycle changes.
     
  11. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    4,408
    I do agree the 'upgrade' from TSW2 to TSW3 was annoying. Although reinstalling everything only took hours, what I consider worse is that Steam reviews are lost and community made Steam guides as well.

    Took me hours to write signalling guide for TSW2020. Hesitated a long while but eventually recreated the guide for TSW2. But when TSW3 was released, I quit.

    So, I hope DTG will go back and do just updates like TSC got. All TSC guides and reviews are still there, from a decade ago. That's a huge advantage for the community. So please, no TSW4. Ever. (Unless it's just rebranding, like TSC has had over the years).
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2020
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    578
    In 2023 you'll see the successor of TSW: Train Sim Universe. You heard it here first.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  13. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,753
    Likes Received:
    3,485
    I don't really mind. I don't keep the old versions installed, and at least on Xbox and Steam it's an easy transition.
     
  14. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    4,533
    Likes Received:
    8,678
    Thing is, for all of the inconveniences people may have had with the transition, it was worth it, no?
    I mean, we got KWG, SEHS2 and CJP - we now have uncoupled Loco DLCs, Dynamic Weather, Volumetric Clouds, and so forth. Also, the sub-par TSW2 menus are no more.

    Could it all have been done in TSW2? Yes, probably. However, it was probably easier for them to throw it all into the new releases (the 3 mentioned routes + Training Centre) and launch a new game.

    The TSW2020 -> TSW2 jump didn't see as many new features, and (correct me if I'm wrong) did maintain the same engine (unlike Rush Hour, which upgraded the UE).

    So yeah, all in all, for what it is, TSW3 was worth it. That being said, TSW4 would need something big.
    (I wouldn't mind the TS-style model of just rebranding the game, or just going with large releases every summer, e.g. Rush Hour.)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    6,567
    Likes Received:
    10,793
    Technically it wouldn't be 2023 that tsw4 would release. It would be 2024 ;)

    But I do agree. TSW 3 basically had features that were already in the game engine and some of them do have issues as well like the overly bright lighting or environmental lighting being too dark in built up areas. We got two new routes and a extension (although I don't understand why a freight route came with 2 high speed routes). A separate version of the same game again isn't necessary but it probably will happen due to DTG basically being money hungry
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    6,567
    Likes Received:
    10,793
    Will it finally be the future of Train Simulation? ;)
     
  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    6,567
    Likes Received:
    10,793
    Basically features already included in the engine.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2022
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Yes, this does make sense. It allows us to differentiate routes that do and don't have new features like lumin values. This also means they can focus on TSW3 add-ons without having to spend valuable resources on the old content (which would be nice, but I suspect the reason we got so many re-used locos is because many resources were spent on old content. Now that the old content isn't so high a priority, more resources can be diverted to new routes and trains like the Class 323 and the BR110)
    The jump to TSW2 from TSW2020 was to facilitate the move from UE 4.16 to UE 4.23. Rush Hour then came and upgraded to UE4.26
    Some new features in TSW2 included a renewed HUD, Sand Patch Grade for consoles (it was PC only before), longer consists, high speed (apparently wasn't possible in 4.16?), and variable adhesion (wheelslip).
     
  19. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2020
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    578
    Even better, beyond the future!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    4,533
    Likes Received:
    8,678
    I thought High Speed was just never really made. Don't think I realised how much TSW2 brought to the game :)
     
  21. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2022
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    I joined in TSW2 as well, this is just stuff I've picked up from... hang on how do I know all of that?

    ...

    I think one of them was forum chatter and the rest was probably the Moleman. Yeah.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    I'm not sure that it was the jump to 4.23 that necessarily enabled DTG to develop a competent high speed route, though it definitely contributed to it. I remember Matt saying that it was the culmination of all of the ongoing engine optimisations that HSR was finally properly doable in TSW. It was probably possible in 4.16, just not as refined. Minor details, for anyone wishing to keep their TSW lore in order.

    I have a lot of those moments myself. I can't remember what I ate for lunch yesterday but I could remember this TSC lore from the annals of obscure train sim history.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
  23. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2022
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Good to know it's not just me!
    and the HSR thing you mentioned makes a bit more sense now. I wonder how they made GWE? Perhaps that isn't fast enough for High Speed Rail.
     
  24. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    In the beginning, there were some performance issues with GWE and some strange artefacting (does anyone remember that weird black band that would randomly stretch across the screen?) though I think they got mostly sorted by TSW2020 through regular updates. I think 125MPH was the limit of what DTG were comfortable pushing the game engine to at the time.

    Cheers
     
  25. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    3,198
    I know this is the PC zone, but just to add in my 2p - my biggest issue with switching versions all the time is that the Trophy carry-over is badly implemented and mostly faulty. Routes where I've completed all of the scenarios and training modules in TSW2 won't trigger a "complete every scenario" type trophy in TSW3 even though my progress is carried over and they're all marked as complete. If I redo the scenarios and training modules, it still won't pop because the game isn't seeing me complete anything I haven't already done unless I do them all on a new profile which negates the whole point of carrying it over in the first place.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  26. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2022
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Right. Makes sense. Thank you
    Hmm, yes. I don't follow trophys that much on Steam, but I can understand that this would be a serious factor to consider.
     
  27. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,010
    Likes Received:
    2,099
    After looking at the latest changes in UE 5.1, I am genuinely excited about the future should DTG jump on board for TSW4. The scenery rendering at least should be top notch. With this latest iteration, even foliage is now rendered without using LOD, as well as the lighting and shadowing. For those interested, the below video gives an inkling as to what may await us:

     
    • Like Like x 2
  28. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    3,079
    Sadly I suspect it is people in the marketing department wanting a cut-off and mandatory core purchase every couple of years who are driving this. The big problems in TSW have often been brought on by the marketing people e.g. lets talk in detail about rush hour 6 months before release, and currently, lets not talk about anything until the week before release meaning the things spotted in the preview cannot be fixed in time for release.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  29. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2022
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    4,020
    Unless it's not implemented properly. All these shiny new features and tools doesn't mean it will necessarily turn into an amazing game. And gameplay matters more than looks. Tsw can look as beautiful as it wants but if you got issues such as red lights and spads, visuals mean nothing. Of course everyone's definition of game breaking is different from major things to something as minor as the wrong shade of color.
     
  30. trainsimcz

    trainsimcz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    1,833
    And usually only new DLC will have those new features, so your whole collection will stay like it is with old features.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  31. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    4,408
    If it's preserved at all. Or have we forgotten about NEC New York - New Rochelle?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  32. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2019
    Messages:
    2,584
    Likes Received:
    1,917
    I think dtg original intent when switching from TSW1 to 2020 then to TSW2 was to leave previous routes and technical problems behind so as to start with a clean slate but the uproar from fans who had spent serious money on previous route dlc and locomotives made it quickly apparent that would be a risky move that could cost more then it be worth while still building the franchise up so to save face and money they decided to import old dlc into newer versions of the game which wouldn't be so bad if weren't for all the unresolves technical issues that came with it.Now all they have gotten for there effort is a mountain of technical issues which seem impossible to ever get cuaght up on plus when putting out fixes more things break because of the fixes leading to more technical issues on top of old and new ones.This is unfortunately a never ending cycle that may be unstoppable.(Which is also the title of a 2010 movie about a runaway train that almost caused a real disaster itself).
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
  33. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,010
    Likes Received:
    2,099
    Agreed, that's why I said in my post "The scenery rendering at least should be top notch".
     
  34. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    2,820
    Likes Received:
    3,382
    The worst thing about the transitions is that they're charging you to get updates that should have been part of the base game. A bit like Polyphony Digital reselling GT Sport as a different game after they added the GT League mode. Not very good business practises. I'm still waiting for the Cement Circle fix for TSW2020. :D
     
    • Like Like x 4
  35. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2019
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    1,781
    We are also getting less I'd say. NTP came with 47 45, 101 and rolling stock. It's now the norm to get one unit and be lucky if a layer is featured. Some exceptions are available to this but its rare.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  36. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2022
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    4,020
    Locos and routes are also getting more detailed and with more features so that might be a reason why. Maybe we'll see more new rolling stock in a route once a big major route comes out. Like the wcml if that ever comes. Can't just have a 390 as the new loco as it would feel very empty.
     
  37. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2022
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    4,020
    As for moving to ue5, I would expect it to be a fresh start with no preserved content. And by then have more advanced tools to build routes more efficiently and have huge networks connecting routes together. Obviously aspiration land but the collection would eventually become too large to port over to make it compatible for ue5 if that ever happens
     
  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Doesn't this rely on all of the tools DTG are building on UE4 porting over to UE5? Else a lot of the work to getting onto UE5 in the first place will be rebuilding their in house tools which don't come as part of, or conflict with, the suite which is inbuilt with the engine
     
    • Like Like x 1
  39. solon

    solon Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2018
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    174
    no matter ;) . The problem is having to reinstall the whole game and all the DLC with each new version. This nonsense needs to be stopped.

    If I were to do this with MSFS, it would be in the closet a long time ago.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    5,565
    Likes Received:
    11,443
    It took a couple of hours, if that, to install my DLC onto TSW3, although I only own about 50% of it admittedly, hardly a major issue I would have thought nowadays.

    There is no suggestion TS4 is even a glint in its creators eye so not sure why there is this speculation to be honest!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Maybe because in the middle of last year we had no sniff that TSW3 was a thing,
    then DTG told us there were stacks of fixes backing up
    then DTG told us that they were releasing the last of their 2022 DLC and they would "pause" to work on fixes such as the xbox jackhammer and the PS DLC limit as well as fixes for BML, SoS etc
    We get a few smaller updates
    then TSW3 gets sprung on us

    So the speculation here is because DTG can't be trusted to tell us what their intentions are, or when we can expect updates, upgrades, fix releases, new software...

    Even this week they released a bunch of fixes with no pre-warning and their patch notes didn't include a couple of major things such as new runs on BML etc.
    It's as though the donkey doesn't know what the elbow is doing (and nobody is telling us either way)
     
    • Like Like x 7
  42. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2017
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    2,179
    I agree 100%. It's ridiculous that it gets rebranded every year. Completely unnecessary.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    It hasn't been "rebranded", each product is distinct from the other in one way or another
    It hasn't been every year
     
    • Like Like x 1
  44. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,231
    Likes Received:
    947
    What is this discussion about? There is absolutely no question of a new version and in addition, it has just been 3 months since a new game was released. Opening threads about what could possibly happen is just sad and above all completely useless! What's next... A discussion about a possible arrival of TSW10 and that we don't want that?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  45. like i have said for months now to my viewers on my you tube channel Dovetail drop the ball big time releasing TSW3 in 2022 they could waited until this year and Released it got all the major fixes done and got TSW3 ready for a real exp players and hardcore long time TSW players like myself wanted and thats TSW3 to been released with Unreal 5.1 and had a PC only edition and a Console only edition and had a PC team put together and a Console team put together of course the PC edition would be for more us hardcore fans with Bigger routes better Trains and so on and the console edition would be for the console standard where it wouldnt brake the system its simple dovetail we have all had it with rebranding names for TSW and the patches not getting check fully before released its gone on now for way to long time i think its time for someone new to be head of Dovetail for TSW and a team that understand's more of what real Railfans want
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2023
  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    5,565
    Likes Received:
    11,443
    The opening poster even stated it was provocative, I suspect the reasons to start the thread were not for a reasoned debate to be honest, as to quote:

    "A somewhat provocative title to give feedback on the obligation to have to reinstall a new version of TSW each year. I admit that the transition from TSW2 to TSW3 just bored me."

    If it so boring, why start a thread about another "boring" hypothetical event of which there is no suggestion of it even happening. It isn't even a yearly event either, just sounds like hyperbole where none is required.

    Have a go at DTG for things they have done not things they might not even do!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  47. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Firstly - Punctuation is your friend. It helps people read whatever it is you're trying to say without getting brain ache
    Secondly - any move to UE5.1 will cause headaches, and possibly more headaches than it solves. DTG heavily modify the base engine code in what they do so they would have to recreate every tool they use, every DLC they've made and that also includes the fact that they make DLC now in very different ways to what they did back in the day. Most people I know who espouse a quick move to UE5 put forth very few ideas of the work this would entail, or what would be lost along the way
    Thirdly - I've never seen anyone asking for a PC version and a console version. What would you want in this PC version that the consoles don't get and furthermore WHY? There is very little benefit in having devs working on loads of different versions when it should be optimised for all and just work...
    Fourth - A PC version would NOT mean "bigger routes and better trains" because there's no inherent limit on route length imposed by hardware or OS. The route length is determined by how long it takes DTG to develop said route, ie a commercial decision. The more custom assets (usually stations) there are, the longer it takes to develop a route, so the shorter it will be. This is why the recent German route could be so long. Bridges and tunnels are easier to make than complex stations.
    Fifth - TSW hasn't been "rebranded", more like they've charged for different versions of the game. TSW to TSW2020 had engine changes, TSW2020 to TSW2 was a UE engine update and DLC rebuild, TSW2 to TSW3 was a core game update, UI rebuild etc
    Sixth - Who knows what "real railfans" are, let alone what they want...?

    For me a "real" railfan doesn't exist because that word is exclusionary and used to bully other people into thinking they're not REEEEALLLY a rail fan because they don't know certain things or don't like certain things.
    Anyone who likes railways or trains or train games can be a railfan, so I would ask why you place yourself in the position of judging who is or is not a railfan to begin with

    TLDR - your post comes across as a bit know it all, whilst also showing that you know little about development in general, game development in particular and how TSW works specifically
     
    • Like Like x 2
  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Read my footer... It explains most of my responses to this forum let alone this post in particular...

    Anyway, forums are for discussion... No matter what the OPs reason for OPing in the first place
     
    • Like Like x 1
  49. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    5,565
    Likes Received:
    11,443
    I am not sure trying to pigeon hole people is at all helpful and personally I can't see DTG having two teams like you suggest. There are plenty of "enthusiasts" with consoles, maybe they don't want or need a PC and enjoy doing all their gaming on a console. It doesn't mean they are just "gamers" who have no real interest in trains.

    Your post does come across as a bit self indulgent to be honest and I would like to know who is the "we" you speak of.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  50. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    4,533
    Likes Received:
    8,678
    What's the point in splitting PC and Console into seperate teams. Other than following this "PC better" idea, it's pointless.
    UE5 would see Dovetail have to port other all of the tools that they have developed, and could potentially see DLCs left behind.
    And how do you define "real railfans" - there's railfans on consoles (myself included) who for sure don't want to be treated as second best. Methinks that you're talking for yourself and only yourself, but think that your opinion = everyone's opinion.
     
    • Like Like x 2

Share This Page