PC In Real Life, Would Train Drivers Apply Emergency Brakes In This Scenario?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by denizmert, Jan 14, 2023.

  1. denizmert

    denizmert Member

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    Title would be too long so I'm explaining in the body.

    So basically from what I've read, it seems that the emergency brakes are only used when there's a risk of collision with something that poses a serious risk of derailment, as the act of emergency braking itself is dangerous and may cause a derailing. Another train, a derail device, a heavy truck or construction machinery etc.

    Yet in TSW3 I sometimes use the emergency brakes to prevent a SPAD or even not to overrun stations. Since you're always driving different trains with way different braking characteristics(the 100-car BNSF intermodal vs die S-Bahn), and with the exception of German PZB/LZB, you don't have a modeled guidance system about decelerating before a stop signal, and unlike real train drivers you also don't get to study performance sheets about train weight vs braking distance and you have to do it from the seat of your pants, sometimes an emergency brake is necessary to prevent a SPAD, especially if you're going downhill with a fully loaded American freighter. I know there are advance approach etc signals before that, but if it's sufficiently heavy enough and if the gradient is downhill 3.0%, you still risk a SPAD.

    My question is, let's say a real life driver realized that short of emergency braking, there is nothing he could do to stop before a stop signal. No PZB/PTC etc so no automatic emergency before that. Would he apply the emergency brakes? Or would he just pass the signal for a brief moment, and as soon as he came to a stop, reverse to the block where he's supposed to be? Which one would get a bigger reprimand from his manager, emergency braking or SPAD?

    Also how often does either of these happen in real life? How many SPADs and emergency brakings would a train driver go through in his career?
     
  2. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    I can only speak for UK practice:

    In the UK applying the emergency brake will not cause a derailment or any other kind of significant risk. Potentially you could cause a wheel flat (and in very extreme circumstances that could theoretically result in a derailment, but it’s not a significant risk).

    Clearly a Driver should never plan to use the emergency brake, or be anywhere near doing so. You should plan to brake comfortably within the capabilities of your train and be nowhere near the point of having to use Emergency. However, if you realise you’re at risk of a SPAD or other incident you MUST put the brake into Emergency.

    In terms of how often a Driver has a SPAD, it varies hugely. Many Drivers will go through their entire career without a SPAD. Some will have several in a career. A lot depends on the type of work you do. You’re at much more risk of an incident of this kind if you work freight trains, or work into and out of possessions, compared to a Driver of a passenger train. Even within passenger work there are varying levels of risk depending on speeds, signalling systems etc.

    For the same reason - and because there are a huge range of SPADs from less serious ‘technical’ SPADS to very serious, dangerous SPADs - there’s no fixed number of SPADs you’re ‘allowed’ before you’re removed from driving. Some Drivers have been removed for 1 SPAD. Others have had several and are still driving. Multiple factors are considered, and ultimately it’s about assessing whether issues can be addressed and whether it is safe for the individual to continue driving trains.

    In terms of emergency braking, that’s more difficult to say. Not every instance is necessarily recorded… However, if it’s anything other than a very rare event, you’re doing something wrong!
     
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  3. denizmert

    denizmert Member

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    So after a SPAD, is the standard practice reversing back to your own block so you're not in the danger zone anymore? Or is it something shocking and serious enough that, you just wait wherever you stopped past the signal for another driver to come in to replace you while you're sent under a drug test/psychiatric evaluation etc. and not allowed to move again?
     
  4. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

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    In the UK, You would bring the train to a stop, and contact the signaller (using in-cab phone or the nearest track-side phone) and wait for instructions. You would be taken off the roster as quickly as possible for investigation.
     
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  5. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    First you contact the Signaller and advise him/her you’ve had a SPAD (in some cases you will have had a call from the signaller on the GSMR-R telling you to stop, before you get the chance to do so).

    The Signaller will will first establish precisely where you are, and ensure there is no immediate risk to your train or any other train. They will then ask you a series of questions (there’s a form they will work through) which will include asking whether you consider the train fit to continue, and whether you consider yourself fit to continue. If your answer to both questions is ‘yes’ they will consult with Control, who will generally speak with the On Call Driver Manager. Normally you will then be allowed to take the train forward to a point where you will be relieved. Policies vary between operators. Some may allow you to continue to the end of the journey, depending on circumstances. It’s all about assessing and minimising risk.

    It’s unusual for it to be necessary to set back. In most cases the Signaller will be able to manage the signalling and other trains in such a way as to allow you to go forwards without risk.
     
  6. In rl you would be paying attention to the signals and would be able to bring the train to a stop under normal braking before a red signal.
    In the UK drivers will mainly drive one type of train, one that they are accustomed to. Any driving of different types of trains would need extra training and some time under the supervision of a driver experienced with those trains.
    An emergency brake is for emergencies only.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2023
  7. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    Yes that’s quite correct about the spads.

    In terms of emergency braking, approaching a red signal where you know you cant stop in time is definitely a time where you’d use the emergency brakes. Even if you pass the signal, the slower you enter any potential collision the better.
    You would not use the emergency brake to ensure you stop at a station. Even full service will be extremely uncomfortable and slightly dangerous for anyone standing up.

    An emergency brake application on most UK trains is not going to damage the rolling stock unless there is severe slipping in rain for example.

    However other countries have slightly more intense emergency brakes.
    Some trains like the German ICE have an extra step of emergency braking. They have a magnet that drops down and creates extra resistance. These will need replacing after use but a driver would still be expected to use maximum braking if they expect to pass a red signal.

    SNCF also say that a TGV can only perform 4 emergency brake applications before needing new brake pads.
     
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  8. noir

    noir Well-Known Member

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    There is one fundamental thing that was not said here so far. Speaking about European trains, there is no situation where you would need to use emergency brake to stop before signal. Yes, fully loaded coal train going downhill will have a very long braking distance. For that very reason we have maximum allowed speed of train - something that is not simulated in TSW (or anywhere else but Zusi I think). It is a complicated formula including weight, load and brake efficiency of all wagons in the consist, route profile and length of the braking distance on the route (distance between pre-signal and main signal). You can find some people on this forum calculating it for the TSW routes, in reality it is usually calculated specifically for each particular train by yard staff after building the consist and handed to the driver.

    Usually the braking distance is around 1100 meters, so you need to calculate the formula with such values that ensure stop using non-emergency braking in at most let's say 900 meters, so you have some reserve. You may find out that the heavy coal train going downhill ends up being only allowed to go like 70 km/h max speed instead of the 120 that the simulator claims.
     
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  9. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I actually find this somewhat unfathomable. If they can apply max limit using german safety systems and show this in the HuD there's no real reason they couldn't do the same for max velocity (VMAX) for a consist.

    In the UK it's even easier in that the headcode of freight trains gives the max speed of the train generally so no matter what you cannot exceed this. If DTG put this as the blue surround on the HUD it would advise players of their top speed. Points wouldn't be affected because you'd always be under the line speed used to work out such things (and you don't have waypoint times in freight)
     
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  10. phil.elliott

    phil.elliott Well-Known Member

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    Based on this line alone, I am under no illusions that I would not be a very good train driver...
     
  11. denizmert

    denizmert Member

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    Another issue with the US freight is, on the Cajon Pass, sometimes the only thing that can slow down a train going downhill is the emergency brake. Dynamic brake will do nothing, neither will the suppression of the automatic brake. You have to release all the air in the reservoir or the train will keep accelerating until derail speeds. So only way to complete that scenario(very long consist coming into San Bernardino) is succession of five to six emergency brakes until you reach flatter surface. I find that ridiculous, and even if suppression+handle off position of the automatic brake could keep a consistent speed, in real life the brakes would overheat to a point where they'd just burn and explode. Dynamic braking must be the only way of adhering to speed restrictions in long descents with heavy freight consists.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2023
  12. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    If you end up needing emergency brake to slow down, this usually means you let it go too fast at some point.
    Remember these two points:
    1. The line speed is a limit, not a target.
    2. The speed of the descent should be based on the weight of your consist, quality of the brakes, maximum slope of the descent, and so on. Nothing to do with the line speed. See noir post above.
     
  13. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    In fairness, you haven’t had any training! However, it’s true to say that the particular abilities required to drive a train are quite unusual. In particular, most people can’t maintain their concentration to the level required for hour after hour in a low-workload environment. In the UK the psychometric tests which you must pass to become a Train Driver have a very low pass rate, and it’s not to do with intelligence or knowledge - it’s a very different mental capability.
     
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  14. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

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    Well it's good to know that my real life train journeys are in good hands!
     
  15. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you should not need to use emergency brakes on CJP, or any US freight route, in the process of normal driving. Remember to keep your speed below 30 mph while going downhill. Any faster than that and your dynamics won't work, which will more than likely lead to an emergency application.
     
  16. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    IRL on Cajon speeds between 15-20 aren't unusual.
     
  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    But it can't. AFAICT, the HUD only ever reflects (a) line speed, or (b) the loco's mechanical Vmax. I have never seen it reflect a PZB limit.
     
  18. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    You must be doing something wrong when driving because that situation should never arise. There is a training scenario that explains how to descend the grade. After a bit of practise it becomes easier.

    You add dynamic brake at the top of the descent. Then you need to add some air brake and bail off the independent brake because just the dynamic brake probably won’t be enough. Then control the speed using the dynamic brake once you have some air brake on. If you can’t control the speed you need to add more air brake and bail off the independent brake again until you can control the speed by only adjusting the dynamic brake. Never release the air brake on a steep section, always reduce the dynamic brake instead. In the steepest parts after passing the summit you need to stay below 30mph. If you go over that then you will lose your train and end up in the scenario you describe, so don’t ever let it get over 30mph. Once past the big bend where the big 66 is on the mountain and the grade isn’t as steep you can usually go a little faster but don’t try and go 55mph when the speed limit is that high because you will struggle to stop in time at the bottom using normal braking. The slower you go, the easier it is to control the descent and the lesser amount of air brake you need to put on.
     
  19. noir

    noir Well-Known Member

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    This might be different in US, but in Europe this is not a preferred approach. As said previously, this would lead to brake overheating and their malfunctions or complete destruction. It is preferred to use dynamic brake as much as possible (if the loco is even equipped with it), and long descends are driven in so called saw-tooth profile, where you brake for some time strongly and then keep the brakes released for similar time to cool them down. However, route profiles and train lengths/weights are of course significantly different from US.
     
  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I'm going by what I've seen on streams where the line seemed to change based on the allowable speed. If that was the signal designated speed rather than the VMAX then fair enough
     

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