Train Simulator Classic - The Future

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Jamie, Dec 21, 2022.

  1. mindenjohn

    mindenjohn Well-Known Member

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    Said this on Dec 29 but it seems to me that what dimitriskif and Kistii want is a new game attached to a ten year old one.
     
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  2. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    Just some tweaks to the existing core, especially all related to train simulation routines.
    Migrating to DX12 or total rework of brake system seems to be much more hazardous. I work in gamedev industry for 12 years and know it well.

    And man, my name is D m i t r i. I'm not from Bulgaria.
     
  3. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    Three more.

    One annoyance: having to acknowledge safety systems while looking around.
    Pretty much all of my emergency brakes are from those two seconds looking around with camera 2-3-4-8.
    For Sifa it's hard coded, if you press 2, it triggers. I swear.

    One feature: would be nice to be able to just assign the train to AI driver and let things happen.
    It could allow different approach to photographing runs, or simply watching the ride. For reasons.
    Technically it would be not Drive but Watch, and I would be bound to the Player train.
    (In its advanced version, fueling a steam loco would be the job. Not my request, just for completeness' sake.)

    One bug: various speed limits tend to conflict, leading to a tick of speeding penalty when entering the cab.
     
  4. frank351981

    frank351981 Active Member

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    For the future of TS would it be nice if some updates/upgrades to older route are made. Some of them could be become newer vegetation for example, or rework of signalling system. And a complete overhaul of the Cologne Airport extension.
    Some improvements to the TS Core like performance optimization sounds nice, especially the menues. When a lot installed it needs relative long time to change to another menue page, or after completing a QD until TS is back in menu.
    I´m not an expert but in my opinion a possible change to DX12 is something that could be ignored. I´m afraid this would be perhaps break to much stuff (or risks too much any damage to TS) especially in the freeware community, so that they are not work properly anymore (technically or visually). They are a lot of freeware assets and routes, I not think that a lot people would do an adaption because reasons
     
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  5. Kim Olesen

    Kim Olesen Well-Known Member

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    I’d like for AI trains in QD to have a “stop at the centre of the marker” option. It looks so bad when a short passenger train stops at the very end of a platform.
     
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  6. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    Assigning control of train to AI is not a simple task, as "bots" ignore track signalls totally and operate with track crearance and Scenario script routines only.
     
  7. mindenjohn

    mindenjohn Well-Known Member

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    I don't do QD so I don't know but in routine scenarios a "scenario only marker" can be placed, maybe similar is true with QD? Anyone tried to do that?
     
  8. Kim Olesen

    Kim Olesen Well-Known Member

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    You can, BUT the problem with that is that if you have your spawn points set to spawn different lenght passenger trains (like 50% chance of a long IC train and 50% chance of a short two wagon unit) then one of them will stop at an awkward position. So this is where my feature request solves that problem.
     
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  9. raptorengineer

    raptorengineer Active Member

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    so is there DirectX 9 to DirectX 12 translation facility program out there, or are they looking around while they made this update plan for train simulator classic page?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2023
  10. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    It think, that was only planned, not in progress. Migrating to DX12 means new shaders and contetn creation tools, so potentially it causes incompatibility with the already launched official and 3rd Party content.
     
  11. kiski

    kiski Member

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    No, I do not want to, but hey, it was DTG that asked for ideas and possible enhancements to be implemented in the future. So I have added mine I consider as a loco creator important.

    As far as I know this topic is about all ideas, correcting all found bugs, and enhancing existing already working things to the next level. Anybody can add his own. Logically I´m focused on things that would make things for us, loco authors easier and bring much more realism into it. Problem is, that originally this game wasn´t created to simulate locos in a truly realistic way - just to allow players to switch some switches, levers, buttons, etc. in cabs and make them feel just a slightly better than in MSTS, where cabs were just 2D images, that´s all. Physics are way too unrealistic in RW. Not even mention many things not working in engine blueprints.

    And my nick is Kiski, not Kistii.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2023
  12. 21c164fightercommand

    21c164fightercommand Well-Known Member

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    We'll have to wait and see how code savvy DTG's programmers are with the old TSxx code and how willing DTG's staff is to inject money and resources in this old architecture. To bring it up to today's standard of true multi core performance and UHD/4K graphics.
     
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  13. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    Officially. I'm ready to donate everyone who just will do next tweaks. Or purchase new version of TSC, it doesn't matter.

    - add lighting capability for procedural flora.
    - update terrain shader to work with textures up to 2048 px.
    - add capability to TrainFlora.fx to cast shadows both in camera facing and not modes.

    - add support of not only loft-based track sections, but pre-dedined fixed tracks too, totally same as in MSTS was done. This allows making of highly detailed junctions, crossings, trackside elements with pre-laid tracks and so on. Splines would be better anyway, but I understand regression voulme and potential imcopatibility with older content such way.

    - Adding a support of SpeedTree animated assets with its native shader like Trainz did would be also a perfect feature, I think.

    I think, three first are shader-based tweaks that can be done, as an example, same way as RWEnhancer team works with TSC shaders don't changing game Core.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2023
  14. mindenjohn

    mindenjohn Well-Known Member

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    I apologise to both DmitriSkif and Kiski for getting their names wrong however my thoughts are unchanged - any changes to TSC must enable backward compatibility. I have 500 DLC downloaded via Steam plus at least twice that of third parties plus repaints in the many hundreds, some my own. Some of these third parties are freeware but most are Payware. That's a lot of money invested not to mention the time I have invested tweaking, route building and repainting. If it can't be backward compatible it's effectively a new game.
     
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  15. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    I agree all upgrades must be backward-compatible. But totally new features like new (never used before) shaders, game assets etc. can be done without compatibility loss. Talking about graphical tweaks, they would just make old content look better, not break it's work.
     
  16. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    New features usually don't affect past content anyway, but hopefully the updates don't ruin performance or break older content.

    One of my biggest requests is improved performance when draw distance is set to high levels. I have it at the second-highest setting and not only is the draw distance too short, setting it to the highest option ruins the performance.
     
  17. Kim Olesen

    Kim Olesen Well-Known Member

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    I can’t say that i have that problem with max draw distance.
     
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  18. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    Me too. Draw distance in TSC is more than enough.

    Shadow tinting distance - yes, it is. Distance where shadows dissappear is too small, and effect doesn't look well. But RWE offers alternative shader where shadow MIPS are updated with better values.
     
  19. raptorengineer

    raptorengineer Active Member

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    i have question? there issue when building tall building that it disappears and reappears when moving camera. i think it z axis bug in game. could that be fixed with out breaking the game.
     
  20. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Not sure which asset you're talking about but this is an issue that affects many assets, but I'm not sure what causes it.
     
  21. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    That's not by Z-axis but when mesh's pivot point goes out of camera field of view. It also can be seen inside the cabine for some levers and gauges. At my loco, I can see such effect with Horn lever.

    The way to fix it is made Core tweak to process all objects outside the camera's FOV. Additionally, it will make FPS more stable while rotating the camera, but at a bit lower rates.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2023
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  22. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    You do realise that object culling is a fundamental part of graphics rendering, right?
     
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  23. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    Yes I do, so it never be done, like many other mature bugs present in TSC since KUJU's times.
     
  24. efekancandan

    efekancandan New Member

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    The most important part in the topic is :love: "Directx 12" :cool:
     
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  25. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    Why?
    I don't think the game will run faster or graphics become more beautiful after that.
     
  26. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    I'd much more prefer if it was Vulkan...
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
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  27. tibomatthijs

    tibomatthijs Well-Known Member

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    Yesss, hopefully we will see good improvements due that! Would be very welcoming
     
  28. MarianD

    MarianD New Member

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    I will for sure PAY for any 3d engine update that will be backward compatible with the existing game: I have over 700euros of DLC and I would like to keep them somehow. For sure a DX12 update with some editor / builder tweaks will make this game truly shine, as there is a HUGE amount of content developed for this platform that would be a shame to be wasted, as their creators spent a gazillion amount of time developing and tweaking them. I'll keep an eye on you! :))
     
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  29. MarianD

    MarianD New Member

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    This is so much needed, they will love this since they are screaming for this for ages now!
    Also, if an API for external hardware devices would be implemented (like TS-Conductor) this game could reach MSFS religion-like fanbase, as the simulation is indeed very good: I am talking from an active train driver's perspective.

    Maybe it was mentioned: traffic control could be also complemented by a revision / discussion, it is well known that single track player use with opposing AI trains creates conflicts and head-on collisions. Also, could be useful to have some scripting method to trigger different events in the game, eg. failure of signals (red by no apparent cause) / trigger signal from stop to green (requested when timetable operations are required: green - track clear at exit signal is indicated only at the departure time).
     
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  30. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    It's already done. Look for TSHelper topic around the Web. I already built a TS cockpit with fully interactive control desk, both with input devices and control gauges and indicators. It works since 2015. I could even sell my project to DTG if they'd like. I ordered design of some 3rd Party products to do so.
    But the way I'd chosen is not optimal as I had no direct access to the game Core.

    I will sure pay for:
    - terrain HD update. As a minimum - terrain resolution higher than 256x256px. Grid update is not on a high demand, but be a cool feature too.
    - Support of fixed track pre-defined track sections with support of animations and loft connectors. Even MSTS has this ability. I'd like to build fully-detailed junctions and track blocks, not simplified loft-built track.
    - Any significant flora update like procedural trees and grass (with native tools to build and edit them), shadowing fixes or SpeedTree etc. support.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2023
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  31. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the intent of your points.

    I think anything procedural still has to be deterministic, so that the designer can build something specific. Having a random tree obscuring the view every other run could be messy. Even though it could make photos more versatile, as I tend to take them from the same places eventually with a patch of bushes and such.

    But, there is still a risk of changing the look and feel of a route. Do people want that? Trees growing, bushes sprawling then cleared out, houses randomly replaced by construction. I still like how Hagen-Siegen looks in winter, for example, updating its trees could change a lot about it (especially as middle aged tree models are less dense, EU asset pack tree fragments are great).

    In any event, such upgrades would require to redirect all existing content to newer assets, similar to loco swapping. Assuming it's a dominant, very acceptable update, I'm still not sure that developers want that (All Aboard, for example, forbids changes, extensions, anything). DTG could write an internal redirection engine for assets, otherwise old content such as workshop routes could become really big milk bottle supermarkets.
     
  32. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    Everything I told causes newly created content only. I don't wish to change any one already created blueprint, route or asset, except bug fixes and backward-compatible upgrades.
     
  33. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    I see, okay :) makes sense, just wasn't clear.
    I'm kinda happy with the 2018 PDL, for me the major problem in this game can be scenery density.
    By procedural, do you mean the editor, or the renderer (when you play)? Plopping down lots of scenery automatically could be a good start and certainly help casual route builders to quickly generate trackside. Placing just one Christmas tree was enough for me :D
     
  34. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    I mean more procedural features for flora like color and size randomness, updated and added new Asset block parameters, fixed procedural grass (it can't be lit with light emitters) and so on...
     
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  35. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    I realise it’s entirely a non starter on practical grounds, but imagine if TS could use real ‘cab drive’ footage, instead of having generate artificial scenery. Maybe along the lines of ‘deep fake’ technology, quasi-realism like that may just be possible.
     
  36. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    There is a new sim which does just that. Check out Train Operator 377 on steam.
     
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  37. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    I worked with similar technology many years ago - we've made train simulators for educational purposes and our software used cab ride videos with adjustable frame rate (with fake frames generated to keep FPS constant). And I can say - it was the most dumb and non-effective way to make a train simulator where you'd like to change the route or even stop at station ))).
     
  38. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    The Japanese Train Simulator series has been using that method since the 1990s, but it has major drawbacks - even if you drive perfectly you get stuff like passengers freezing mid-walk.
    Of course, this is entirely irrelevant to the thread about improving TSC...
     
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  39. Kim Olesen

    Kim Olesen Well-Known Member

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    For route building: An AI tool that analyses google earth images and builds the scenery on basis of that.

    Most user routebuilding projects grind to a halt when it becomes clear how much time it takes to put scenery into a route. Track laying etc is not a problem, but the scenery….
     
  40. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    I think that's asking rather a lot! I think improvements to the google maps overlay tool so we can use non-google maps as well would be more practical.
     
  41. Kim Olesen

    Kim Olesen Well-Known Member

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    I’m not expecting it to build 3d models place signals or anything of that kind. More like, here is a forest, appears to be these kind of trees, the nearest match in the asset pool are these trees, and then placing them in the route. Likewise with houses, roads etc…

    Actually i think AI could be a very powerful route building tool.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
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  42. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Works easily for a Flight Sim, when it’s seen from a distance, but hard for TS. But I agree that photorealistic scenery would be the dream. (Would Network Rail allow a Google Camera train to travel the length and breadth of the network?!)
     
  43. mindenjohn

    mindenjohn Well-Known Member

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    I screenshot the Google Earth image, print it out and then use appropriate vegetation in Assets Blocks (especially the irregular one). You can superimpose more than one asset block to give more than 2 types of scenic per area. Saves hours.
     
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  44. Kim Olesen

    Kim Olesen Well-Known Member

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    But imagine if this could be done automatic, and you can then change what you don’t like afterwards.
     
  45. DmitriSkif

    DmitriSkif Active Member

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    It not only saves time, but also makes the perfomance better, as asset blocks work as a single game object, reducing game memory consumption. You can place 1000 of trees manually using Ctrl-c + Ctrl-V, and then the same object with an Asset block. Second one works faster.
     
  46. robix61

    robix61 New Member

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    Will it be possible to set different speed limits on the same track based on the direction you go?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2023
  47. ttjph

    ttjph New Member

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    Absolutely - a more robust 'dispatcher' would be great. Hours of frustration currently caused trying to get trains to path the way you want, or to fix legacy scenarios which worked when they were written but now don't.

    Tile loading stutter and adhesion related to train length would be another two of my top picks to work on.
     
  48. Koplopermau

    Koplopermau Member

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    I'm a bit late, but first of all: I see a lot of people requesting things like trains and routes: This is much bigger than that. It might be a complete rewrite of the Train Simulator core as we know it, making it more stable, more features and better quality of life overall. This is not a request thread for train X on route Y.

    My main requests for Train Simulator are as follows (many have been listed but I'll just repeat them for my own sake):
    • First off, decent performance overall.
    • Where .ap files already made things load a lot faster, the current menu struggles a lot with a lot of assets. I would love just to fly through the menu without having to wait all the time for TS to load everything in, even with all my assets on an SSD. Please also take third party assets into consideration, as Steam has quite some routes, but third party assets are more important than ever now DTG puts its focus on TSW more and more.
    • Higher drawing distances. In current TS, for example in Mannheim - Karlsruhe, you'll pretty often run into places where objects aren't loaded yet if you drive 300 km/h with your ICE. Even in regular DTG routes! In homemade Dutch routes this also happens if its a busy place, if possible fix this by making the draw distance longer.
    • Solid 60fps on 4k resolution. I am aware this sounds pretty demanding, but with current hardware we should be able to get more performance out of TS, even in busy areas. With an upgrade to DX12 I'm sure DTG would be able to put more and better support for modern hardware, better multicore support (remember, TS is already supporting multicore, different cores do different tasks). Make that better and upgrade the core to support modern videocards and nVidia DLSS and features.
    • I am not really a driver. I am a creator. I prefer to build scenario's, routes, that kind of stuff. I would love to see many upgrades to the editor.
      • Route editor
      • Make it possible to copy lofts and build multiple lofts at once (example: Double tracks with an embankment placed at the right height and a fence at once).
      • Searchable asset list. If I search 'tree' I want everything that has 'tree', like MA Tree 1 or TSA Trees group (trees has 'tree'). But also 'street'. You get the drill. This would safe so much time searching through the asset lists, 'specially if you have lots of assets.
      • Look into the Route Editor code and please fix the crashes that occur when you build quite some signals and when you enter the overhead map. These are the most annoying and happen very frequent.
      • Scenario Editor
      • The Dispatcher is a piece of garbage. Its weird, has weird behaviour (I know how to work around the thing after years of experience). Give us more control over the dispatcher and let us know better how it works, so we can adjust things within the game so we can manage priority and orders better and with less effort than right now. Single line operation is almost impossible with AI traffic because you're dealing with priorities and waiting times, whilst it could be as simple as telling the dispatcher a number between 1-9999 to let it know which train goes first, second, etc. Just overall better performance and no more 'Unknown Errors' which don't help me at all.
      • Make it possible to copy or clone a driver and change its times and just edit it after the copy so you can easily make more AI traffic. We can already switch consists easily by swapping the driver over to another train. That works pretty good, but being able to copy a driver and add one more stop down the line would make AI so much faster and better.
      • Searchable asset list, see route editor. If I search 'ICM' I want all ChrisTrains ICM trains to pop up.
      • Easy way to add sounds to a scenario and to play them back whenever I want instead of LUA scripts and support for mp3 128kbps sounds instead of the chuncky WAV format.
      • Make it possible to create a timetable in a route by making trains appear according to a timetable from portals or places in the route that are predefined. For example: Train ABC123 runs from A to B and enters the route at Portal X and runs to Portal Y and has this timetable. Copy, paste, train will now run every 30 minutes. This will make custom routes fun to create as you'll have a full timetable to run and play with as a user.
    • Multiplayer
    • I am a big fan of multiplayer, 'specially since SimRail is around. I would love people to be able to build a route together. This would not only make work on a route easier, it would also make work much shorter. Same for scenario editor. Creating a scenario with other people would be pretty fun to do in for example a livestream. Driving together is one. Managing timetables and signalboxes is two, but building together would really get communities together in creating more content for TS. How and if this is possible would be the question, but if it would be possible I assume we could use a server client model that will make it possible for someone to host a server (maybe even dedicated) and logon and build together with friends, or of course just drive a train from A to B on a server like SimRail.
    I might add more points to this list as time goes on. Sorry I'm a bit late, but I'd love to see TS get the overhaul it deserves. Also, I mentionned SimRail quite some time, but maybe its an idea to give people acces to Train Simulator Beta, where they can copy assets over from their normal Train Simulator and test things before these updates go live. This will make testing a lot easier as we can just report bugs before things really break.

    Also, I asked previously what the scope of the updates were. This is why - I understand that my requests have quite some influence on the core of the game as a whole, I have absolutely no idea how hard it would be to implement that stuff. I guess pretty hard. This is why I asked, so I could adjust my requests. Since we have no real idea yet, I just listed everything.

    If any questions, feel free to respond.

    - Koplopermau
     
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  49. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    Whatever happens, one thing is important.

    Compatibility - so in case there are big changes, they should be optional (like the RailWorks 2 TSX features are still toggable via "DynamicLights", and SilverLining can be switched off via "DynamicClouds").

    This would mean a legacy mode, probably with a separate .exe, must be available. I've got used to TS for so long now, I think I wouldn't even want the UI or HUD to change without the option of switching to Classic mode if I feel like.

    To be realistic, I don't expect the core dispatcher to be enhanced - it is just too dangerous. TSC is not simply a game, it's an open platform, and many of us have amassed a huge collection of content that needs to be working on that platform. What I can think of is indeed an upgrade to the rendering engine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2023
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  50. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    To add a few thoughts - TSW route assets are not that far away from TSC - just lower the TSW graphics settings, disable PostProcessing and Effects and the routes look almost the same (if not worse in detail) than TSC. The optical difference is just UE4 renderer and its shaders and FX - not the assets.
     

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