Rivets’ New Scottish Route

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, Dec 22, 2022.

  1. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    I have ask for a refund! The stations are nice but the route it self is a little emty due to the lack of other trains and the biggest thing is the train it self... Drama all over the place... Disaster! So many bugs and the sound gives me headache.

    This is not the quality that's present this price for this product. 19euro okay but more than 30 is bizar.... Bad bad bad! Sorry to say!
     
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  2. nhilsubsolenovum

    nhilsubsolenovum Active Member

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    It's Rivet why even bother. What did you think it'd be like?
     
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  3. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    I think this is going to be the new normal. More expensive DLC, and lower quality. This is confirmed more and more at DTG/RIVET
     
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  4. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    The point is that Rivet just doesn't have the knowledge at the moment but tries and just fails and besides that the priorities are just not well chosen. Nice all those buildings you can enter but it's a train simulator not a station simulator
     
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  5. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    The 385 is out of date on cathcart circle line. 385 entered in 2019 I believe and ccl is set in 2014. It also can't cope with the constant stop and go operations on cathcart circle cuz the traction motors would easily overheat.
     
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  6. Cygnific

    Cygnific Well-Known Member

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    No 10% off for the suckers who buy at day one?
     
  7. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    It was only there if you preorderd on steam. Xbox game pass users also get a discount after release which i've read is 1-2 weeks
     
  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Usually there is a Xbox Game Pass discount which is 10%
     
  9. Cygnific

    Cygnific Well-Known Member

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    Knowledge isn't the only thing, it looks to me as lack of passion in the routes (like, just cloning assets). Or they need more time for their routes or keep the routes at bargain sale price. It's always just good enough and not amazing or excellent.
     
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  10. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Will wait the verdict on this route.
    For me the scenery is very important, more so than sounds, PIS, moths and pianos.
    After all when you are driving you are looking out of the window and not at the finely detailed model of the cab interior.

    I've still little knowledge of how well Rivet has handled the scenery as I turned off the preview stream before the end
    Stations, vehicles and line side trees appeared ok, but I got bored staring out of that letterbox window.
     
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  11. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Rivet need to stick to helping DTG build routes. ATS & Just Trains can’t come soon enough.
     
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  12. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    davidh0501 The stations are good but the route between them is in my opion boring and the quality is medium!
     
  13. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Quite enjoying it so far (sorry).
     
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  14. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    Same, I can see a few minor issues, but I think most of these aren't Rivet's fault.
    Light draw distance seems awfully low, but that's a core issue I think.
    Brakes take some getting used too, but the thing is quick enough that you're never usually late on arrival
     
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  15. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe those talks are important before nail the decision for what loco & route 2 go with.
    So again green signals depend on players task instead of the track block system?
     
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  16. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    No problem! That's no sorry! If you have fun its okay and no hate ;)
     
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  17. paulossj4

    paulossj4 Active Member

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    Sorry, I just remember that I took a three-car service on platform 3 in the morning...

    But when closing the game an update came, so it must have fixed it. Anyway, thanks for your attention.
     
  18. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    It seems so.
     
  19. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that's not good to see! The sigalning is bad!
     
  20. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I enjoyed my first run. Made good time, having to wait for time at all intermediate stations, had no trouble with the brakes, stopping close to the point on all but one station. My biggest gripe is the signals, and we already know LM is on it now that it's out. Things like ballast colour do not matter to me, though I realize others take this seriously. Thought sounds were OK, have never ridden in this train, but wheel sounds were there in the whirring noise at speed. The view out the driver's window was fine, if you zoomed in a little towards it. Had some stuttering around Edinburgh and Glasgow, otherwise nice fps noted overall.
     
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  21. Cygnific

    Cygnific Well-Known Member

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    If you are having fun with it you shouldn't be sorry... We all have our opinions, my interest is more about graphics so that's all I mostly care about and nag about that a lot. Anyway, glad you are enjoying it, that's all that matters.
     
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  22. AtherianKing

    AtherianKing Well-Known Member

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    It’s not a signal light simulator… so by that they shouldn’t be their… but extra stuff helps make routes stand above the rest
     
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  23. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    Sharon E For me the cabsound is driving in a big storm xD
     
  24. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    A signal is not a stopingpoint for a station.... sometimes yes but the sigal means free track or there is no train in front of you.... so youre comment is 100 right
     
  25. AtherianKing

    AtherianKing Well-Known Member

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    I was more referring that just because it’s not directly highlighted by the 3 word title “train sim world” it doesn’t mean it’s addition is bad or detracts quality.

    yes their will always be a balance in “self imposed” time limits (has its understandable stuff why this is but at the end of the day falls back to those who create them) but bland stations or quality stations make a difference. Likewise with scenery or Ai stuff.

    they could put easily 100% focus onto a train but where does that leave anything for Signal lights or Stations or scenery
     
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  26. phil.elliott

    phil.elliott Well-Known Member

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    I've completed a couple of journeys now - first impressions are quite good. I like the route - as has been said, the stations seem very well done, the scenery between them seems fine (but it will take more runs to really judge it). I suspect others may consider it not detailed enough, which would be a valid point, even if it doesn't really bother me.

    The 385 feels detailed and well-made - the brakes are interesting, in that below 50% application they don't seem to do much, but above 70% application I don't see much diference between the rate of braking with other similar trains (eg the one on BCC).

    I haven't encountered any bugs or issues so far. The TMS is a nice new toy to play around with, I think that will add some interest. Jury is still out overall, because I like to drive 10-12 services before really making a judgement.

    Only thing I would point to so far is the blue light/tunnel thing, it seems like they haven't gotten that right yet. But happy to have it in my collection.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention the driver's window - it does feel quite cramped in the cab to begin with, but I found after the second run I stopped noticing that the window is small. Obviously this is a feature of the real life train, rather than a developer interpretation, but thought I'd mention it.
     
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  27. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    I've not encountered this at all yet and I've run a couple of services already?
    Not sure if that's a scenario or timetable occurance, but not yet had it myself on timetable
     
  28. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    It looks to me like the electrical spark effect has got stuck on the tunnel and is permenantly illuminating the area
     
  29. ollysmail

    ollysmail New Member

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    After playing the route for a couple hours this evening on console here’s my verdict. (p.s. it’s a long read but may be worth it if you’re considering it/if rivet sees this it would be helpful for them too.)


    Starting off with the good, the model off the train and stations are overall really good and it’s nice to have working lifts and a piano i can play every once in a blue moon. But tbh, there isn’t much else that is good, so onto want needs improving. the main issue - the sounds of the 385. They are completely off and it sounds like ur driving outside when in the cab, and the loud running sounds give me a headache. the motor sound plays continuously even when coasting with no power on which is aggravating. the door beeps are awful quality and go on for way too long. i’ve heard stuff about them possibly fixing this however i’m not keeping my hopes up. second of all- lighting inside and outside the train. inside the train when the saloon lights are on the “lights” on the ceiling do not light up anywhere near how bright they are irl, and behind the toilets there’s random light bleeding through the walls which looks awful. outside the train the lighting on the side of the train looks over the top and grainy, giving an awful look. Another thing that’s annoying which may seem nit-picky is the door buttons are both open signs rather than open and close, and also the animations of the passenger doors seems a bit fast. There appears to be a lack of fencing across the whole route, mainly at EDB, HYM & GLQ. Rivet have definitely put detail into the route, just not in what i would see as the prioritised areas. i was so excited for this route since the first teaser, i’m now the least interested i’ve ever been in a new route especially when it has one of my favourite trains on it, especially after paying £30 for it. Overall i’d give it a 4, maybe 5/10 atm, hoping it improves over time.
     
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  30. Xander1986

    Xander1986 Well-Known Member

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    ollysmail This have nothing to do with a small amount of bugs that's fair but in this scale is to much and not fun! For me the sound is a gamebreaker! What you describe is right it sound like to drive with open window all the time! :)
     
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  31. tuxcatazuma

    tuxcatazuma Active Member

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    Firstly, excellent model of the train and scenery. Really outstanding!

    Unfortunately, from a simulation and immersion point of view I am very disappointed. I believe a fix is due for the tunnel/lighting (it's particularly bad when entering a tunnel) which is great news! Also the work around for the 'wind' noise by closing the right-hand side door works for now, but hope this will be fixed. Is the sim behaving as if a window is open? Finally one other behaviour I've noticed is that when under power and going over a netural section, the power is cut as soon as the cab hits the netural section, when shouldn't it be when the pantograph hits the netural section.

    Other than that, I'd love to see a more automated annoucement system, so as the driver, you didn't have to select them all yourself, and also the signal issue (only green after closing door) bug fixed as this can't be right, surely?
     
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  32. Sprinter

    Sprinter Well-Known Member

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    DTG and Rivet should watch the 'Dadrail' youtube streams. He is pointing out very well the things that are wrong (bugs) with the route/train. Maybe next time get him into the office before release of a UK dlc?
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2023
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  33. AtherianKing

    AtherianKing Well-Known Member

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    I think the issues this route has shown, may be affected more by both that it’s release has been moved to Thursday’s despite a move to have it on Tuesday’s for more of a working week to work on issues from launch. Aswell as having a preview stream 2 days before launch, it should be at least a week in advance in order for feedback and note taking of spotted issues to mean anything from the streams.
     
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  34. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    The red signals at each stop really needs looking at. Combined with the weak brakes on the 385 the risk of a SPAD is constant. I even had a red light at a go via location which turned green as I passed it. Not good
     
  35. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    I bought the dlc, and some things i can share, others i discovered by my self.

    Route: From the streams and the short playing time i would say the visually things are clearly rivets strong side, cant tell much about if the signalling works as intended or not, but overall it seems a lot of work went into the route itself, which is highly positive.

    So the class 385.:....Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus
    111x.jpg

    Why for Sack Sake Rivet put a huge effort into a visually nice train, and step right into DTGs past (s)hitstorm where it was about lack of sounds & bad sounds in general. For example Flange sounds..? Non existent.

    In short: 1. In my opinion Rivet ruined the EMU with this sounds, 2. According to Rivets history of quick updates: TSW remains with a ruined 385. The brakes are on the weaker side compared to other tsw emus / locos, not easy to say if its "way off & unrealistic", 250 tons just dont brake to a full stop like a VW Golf. --> The key answer is, do they have a source or did rivet just ductape the braking physics according to youtube. I really dont know..., whatsoever

    The Motor bogies are modeled very well similar to the 484, highly detailed. On The trailer bogies Rivet missed the axle bearings which are on the inner side at this bogie type. Right now the Axle is floating and seemed attached to the brake caliper, which is highly incorrect.

    The principle is similar to the 700 Bogies, attached below, also the ingame 385 Trailer bogie:

    TSW3_Meridian_1674767225_00.png

    Cl. 700:
    Thameslink 700.jpg
    Not sure whats wrong in Rivets house, it happens a railway operator dont share enthusiasm for rail simulators and restrict their brand etc, but why has it to be a 385 if Rivet have no access to a proper source & record?

    This mess of feature roulette, lack of quality standards is concerning and to be honest im tired of giving feedback , since this EMU after a reallyimpressive 323 was 5 steps back into the TSC era.
     
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  36. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

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  37. acro

    acro Active Member

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    Maybe it's my fault for going into Timetable mode instead of Scenarios but I didn't have a fun first experience.

    I didn't originally get why people were complaining about AI timings as the only other route of Rivet's I have is Island Line 2022 where it's not really such a noticeable flaw, on here it's quite problematic. The service I chose to run was 1R31 which is an 8 car service. To start off with, I could not see the signal aspect from the cab. Maybe the trains truly are too long for the IRL to have platform signals visible, but that seems unlikely. Anyway, because of that I had to rely on what the HUD was telling me. Apparently I needed to depart 1 minute from when I was put into the session, however I am forced to load passengers for the duration of a minute. This means if you don't immediately open your doors upon loading into the game, you are "late". Not that it really matters when the next signal 300 yards away will stay red until another train clears the track some 3 minutes later... Why not tell me to wait at the platform like other routes do? The final thing to really just rub me the wrong way was the stopping indicator at Haymarket, it was clearly set up for a 4 Car unit but the scenario is an 8 Car one, come on man.

    Some other things I noticed were more minor nit-picks but still. Train liveries pop in relatively close to the camera so its easily noticeable when a plain blue carriage suddenly gains ScotRail decals. A train on the scenario I mentioned above started with its marker lights on then switched to headlights upon approach, which seemed a little odd. I also find it quite bemusing that after "Working Elevators" was really pushed as a selling point, there are many glass ones across the route that are just static objects. The guard buzzer is bound to B, which I have set as Hi-tone and I don't see any way of rebinding that. Finally, I noticed a couple of scenarios in Rail Journeys that suggested they take multiple hours to complete, which I somehow doubt.

    These are just my personal complaints from trying the route. I haven't bothered to write about physics, sound, glitchy TMS etc. because everyone else has already pointed them out. I think in terms of Graphical presentation, this route is definitely one of the best (bar some odd lighting) and the modelling of the train itself is phenomenal. I'm just quite disappointed in the state of the overall package, I'm hoping that Rivet/DTG can address some of the more major issues such as the physics and timetable. As for the presentation stuff, while it would be great to get official updates, I'm sure the community will do some marvellous work in bringing the route up to scratch.

    20230126213146_1.jpg 20230126213141_1.jpg
     
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  38. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    PC users, I’m currently working on an enhancement pack for this route. The latest updates can be found here
     
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  39. Class156

    Class156 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like all versions should have been released on the 31st. It's a real shame as I was going to buy this. Bring on the partnerships with ATS and Just Trains, two devs with a track record (pardon the pun!) in designing excellent routes.
     
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  40. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    A forum member did the calculation and the braking is basically spot on to the real thing. The deceleration rate is 1m/sec^2 or 2.2mph/s. Which means from 100 to 0 mph, takes about 45 seconds. The forum user tested it on training center and did the exact same thing on max brake, and it was about 45 seconds.
     
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  41. monstamash#2327

    monstamash#2327 Member

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    Please stop making, adding new routes. Take a timeout and fix/update the vast amount of routes we already have. Doesn't matter that entirely different teams work on projects. It sends the wrong message when you don't address existing needs and release new content that is surely to have problems as well. We currently have plenty of routes. Address what we currently have. It comes off as a money grab IMHO.
     
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  42. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    This was done 3 months ago. It's a lot cleaner than it was and they did a decent job to be fair if going after a huge amount of fixes( still some yes).
     
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  43. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    some minor observations from me.

    • TPWS/AWS is the same as Class 387, but doesn’t tell you it’s active on cab set up in the same way the 387 does. I believe the same issue applies to the Class 484. A Rivet problem?
    • GSM-R with Birmingham X City we had the display and the sounds. On Edinburgh-Glasgow we have no interaction or sound with it.
    • Long periods with no scenery and not much happening, a bit like a model train set that just goes round and round and round!
    • The Class 385 I’m sure is modelled accurately, but what an appalling cab! No wonder the unions had so many problems with it!
     
  44. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    What is frustrating for me is the Class 385 model is superb, scenery superb, stations, again superb.

    But it seems all the features DTG included for BCC (Birmingham Cross City) have been undone. Every new DLC should be improvement on the last, but I feel we’ve gone backwards with this DLC in places.

    Having AI timings, and dispatching on a red after all this time, is unforgivable especially when we know by now, that it doesn’t have to be done that way.
     
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  45. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Just coming back with some updated thoughts now that I've had the opportunity to play the route for a few hours. It's ok but definitely the weakest of the TSW3 routes so far IMO, with some substantial issues.

    In rough order of priority:

    - Wow, the signal visuals are absolutely terrible. The flare is insane from a distance so you can't tell the difference between a yellow and double yellow but up close it's sometimes hard to tell what colour a signal is showing. For instance, the below is a green signal, but looks like a double yellow - what is going on?

    upload_2023-1-27_11-12-19.png

    - The timetable is a bit of a disaster too. To break it down:

    a) AI timings are just not acceptable anymore - all services should have clear, rounded timings based on the WTT
    b) 'Dispatch beyond' box is not ticked on at least the Queen St - Alloa services, so we have to close the doors before getting the green light
    c) Cumbernauld line services from Queen Street High Level should have been included as AI traffic to make the station a bit busier - they all use 385s too so there shouldn't be any reason why we couldn't have them.

    - Why does it sound like the window is wound down in the 385 when the driver's internal door is open? It's irritatingly loud.

    - As I've documented elsewhere, although the braking force seems correct, the behaviour of the power handle and the braking 'step' feedback in the HUD leave a lot to be desired

    - Arrived in Edinburgh at 5:30pm(ish) in January to find all the station lights switched off so I had to feel my way around the walls through the pitch black with the flashlight to find the stairs! This issue isn't limited to this route but surely there's a way around this by now.

    - AI trains all appear to be missing drivers

    I do also think, although not a 'bug' per se, that this just isn't a particularly interesting route. There's one type of traction, adverse signals are rare unless caused by the 'dispatch beyond' issue noted above, it's not especially scenic, mostly flat and there are no interesting branches or other activities (freight etc) to speak of. Additionally, although the modelling appears spot-on, the 385 is both not very interesting and makes it very hard to see much of the surrounding countryside, even out of the side windows.

    Unfortunately, as it stands this is probably the only TSW3 route that I can't recommend. Perhaps that would have been different if the scope had been a little bigger (to Dunblane / Alloa for instance, with the Inter7city HST units included as well) and the more obvious bugs fixed before release. I'm happy to review this again at some point in the future if matters improve through fixes or further DLC.
     
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  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I was going to get this when I heard that the braking issue was not an issue, however reading the comments I will wait at least to see if any of these issues are fixed in the next few weeks.

    I do like the look of the route modelling and the train and it looks like a nice route to have a 100mph thrash on occassions. I do like the effort Rivet have gone to to be a little different but there are too many niggling errors and things like signals being hard to read, a perennial TSW problem do make the game play experience weaker.
     
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  47. kosti.nuuja

    kosti.nuuja Well-Known Member

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    The route looks great. The class 385 is well modeled. BUT. The sounds of 385 are, no other words could describe it, dreadful. Not only loud wind noise inside the cab, but also bad traction motor sounds. Hopefully, one day it will be fixed.
     
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  48. vitt77

    vitt77 New Member

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    Agree, the letterbox window is very small.
    Are you driving using cab cam?
     
  49. TimTri

    TimTri Well-Known Member

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    That’s what I’ve been fearing. The line between Glasgow and Edinburgh looks pretty monotonous, seems like there simply won’t be much replayability even if the route gets into a relatively bug-free state.
     
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  50. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    I find myself coming back to this thread sooner than anticipated with more frustrations :(

    - The timetable is purportedly a current one, but a check of RTT shows that Dunblane-bound services from Waverley stop at Edinburgh Park. Yet for some reason, Edinburgh Park is completely unserved in the game, with not a single service calling for the whole day. Why would you model a whole station, including tram stop, and then forget to put it in the timetable?!?

    upload_2023-1-27_16-20-28.png

    - PIS misses all post-map stations until the destination, which is something that was solved 18 months ago in Rush Hour - trains don't run non-stop between Croy and Alloa etc.

    - Headlights have a very short draw distance so they pop in just a few metres from the player

    - The first left-handed curve as you reach the top of the gradient out of Glasgow Queen Street appears to be totally missing superelevation (another recurring Rivet issue, see WCL for much more of this) - a bit of smashed crockery and aching necks at 60mph, quite surprised that the train stays on the tracks at all. The rest of the line is more-or-less fine in this regard - needs looking at.

    Additionally, having researched the timetable a little more, I'd have liked to have seen 314s implemented on the North Clyde line services (Edinburgh end of the route between Edinburgh Park and Waverley, from Helensburgh Central) to replace the current Class 334 contingent. Wiki suggests that in the past these services were occasionally operated by 314s, and they're another 3-car EMU that would make Edinburgh a lot busier. It's not exact, but it's the right operator and we've got 377s posing as 455s on BML where no one is really complaining? This point is certainly more contentious however so it's not making my main list of issues.
     
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