Dtg's "policy" On Only Modern Content

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by theorganist, Jan 26, 2023.

  1. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    If I had a penny for every time I heard that phrase on these forums...

    Despite my pfp, modern traction is why I play TSW. It's as simple as that. I can't relate to BR Blue that much, because I didn't grow up with it and as a child I didn't stare up in wonderment at 101s and 47s in the same way I did engines like Mallard and Caerphilly Castle in museums, which is why I am more interested in steam. If BML or Edinburgh- Glasgow were set in the 1970s or 80s, I wouldn't give them a second look. I feel that on the other hand fans of classic traction are more willing to try modern add ons, for whatever reason. I could be completely wrong.

    Regarding the apparent lack of demand for BR Blue despite many on the forums clamoring for it, It's important to remember that not everyone that plays TSW is on these forums. I think that the people on these forums are more serious railway enthusiasts that care more about classic traction, while the average joe who bought TSW because it might be fun to drive a train will be more interested in modern add ons as they may contain trains or routes they actually recognize.

    There's also the annual survey to consider, where people's opinions are more anonymous.

    I think there are two ways to satisfy both crowds:

    1. Have more routes based on closed lines, or routes that have changed significantly in recent decades. I'd buy a Woodhead route in a heartbeat, same goes for a route that included Lincoln St Marks or any other major closed station.

    2. Have more routes set in transition periods. It may be more difficult negotiating licenses for defunct operators, but it would absolutely be worth the trouble. I'd love a present day WCML, but I'd love an early 2000s WCML with both Pendolinos and Class 87s and 90s even more.
     
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  2. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    There are also cases like the Cumbrian Coast Line between 2015 and 2018, where a near-present-day route can be combined with classic traction.
     
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  3. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Probably largely because of this:
    Notice Matt's wording:
    Local US devs probably know a guy who knows a guy etc. and can get a lot of things done that way. That's probably what DTG lack - these contacts potentially helping or maybe even bypassing some of the red tape. I could well imagine that, at least.
     
  4. max#2873

    max#2873 Well-Known Member

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    I went into TSW recently, and my impression is, the best time for me is left behind. The tees valey, Clinchfield, sherman, transpenine, oakfield, canecreek,spg, lgv, peninsula, sos were great (neglected and mutilated though) and they balanced post-stamp-windowed-emus (which are nice, but I have more than I play them UK and DE) Now I feel the balance in nature is lost and I will be left with these old DLCs and no love for them from DTG.
     
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  5. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, you've joined the other ill- informed forum members who don't know diddly- squat about Amtrak and its activities.
    Amtrak is a lot more than NEC. In the Midwest, for example, it runs services from Chicago to several nearby destinations in Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana and Michigan.
    One service that would be eminently doable is " The Hiawatha " between Chicago and Milwaukee, about 90 miles.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
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  6. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    https://amtrakhiawatha.com/amtrak/schedules.php 7/8 trains each way per day, exactly what was said, its very few services compared to regular commuter routes. People would be up in arms if you made a route with 14 or so playable services.
     
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  7. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    A well done West Highland line or Kyle line less than that! Many of us would be day one takers providing we were confident it wasn't a bug fest.

    Highland Mainline that's just been suggested isn't much more. The issue with UK routes is stations like Birmingham New Street and Edinburgh Waverley being far too quiet. Can't comment on US content as know little but always thought a US passenger service on the Sandpatch Grade would be nice to have although it limited.
     
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  8. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, how many times do you want to make the same run? Time of day and weather variants would be enough for many players. Baltimore - Washington has more runs but they would still be A to B.

    Besides, my point is that Amtrak is a lot more than NEC and some 3 day services coast to coast. There are regional services on all 3 coasts that could be part of TSW.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
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  9. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing though, the majority of US 3rd Party devs for TSC are NOT US based.

    Milepost Simulations? UK
    Smokebox? Europe
    Digital Train Model? South America
    Travel By Train? UK
    Reppo is unknown.

    Searchlight Simulations is probably the only US 3rd Party dev I know that's based in the US, as a good amount of them work for Class 1 railroads.
     
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  10. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    For hiawatha, could also include freight operations with that so it's more value for money. Mainly CP runs on the route. Another operator Wisconsin & Southern Railroad runs Wisconsin to Chicago. Don't know what the licensing agreements are or whether dtg has the licenses. Also have to look at overall feasibility since it is a lot of new things to make. Without freight, the line would be empty. Having only 1 passenger locomotive with a couple passenger car variants with less than 20 services a day would not be worth $40.
     
  11. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    I'm fairly certain G-Trax is American.
     
  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There's also Niddertalbahn, stepping a bit further back into the Produktfarben era
     
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  13. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Searchlight Simulations is basically out. They and DTG had problems in the past and were unable to form a working relationship, so they parted ways a long time ago.

    I think the issue with some 3rd party devs is that they are too small. Learning all the tools related to unreal engine from tsc is not easy. Smokebox for example is basically a 1 man team (I could be wrong) and considering how the Big Boy took a few years I believe, it would take even longer to make it for tsw, not really making it viable financially considering how much time he would need to spend making the whole thing. Even if it was just 1 steam loco or even a small route, for 1 man to do it all, it is a lot of work especially if they have a personal life as well.
     
  14. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Woody has made that clear that they don't want to work with DTG at all.

    Someone entertained DTM to make stuff for TSW, but given how mediocre his content is on TSC, I don't think that would be a good idea... (Just look at the fallout from his P40DC that broke on stream)
     
  15. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I think that's right. Quite a few one or two person developers have made routes and locos for TSC, because the editors and development tools are freely available and easy enough to learn.

    TSW/UE is a horse of a different color. The learning curve is steep and the development time for an individual or two is lengthy. Not to mention licensing issues.

    I don't see many independents investing the time and effort to produce routes for TSW like they have for TSC.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
  16. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    My 2 cents...
    One of the strong sides of TSC is that you can mix and match services. Each DLC - TSW included - comes with a limited amount of stock, but when you have multiple, the options open up. Of course, the dirty side is that reskins are cheaper than full models. Given the release cadence it makes sense to focus a little.

    Also, what is the lure of TSW? To pay again for the same trains (and routes) already played ad nauseum in TSC? To some, sure. But there are many modern trains not yet available in either engine, and - ignoring the route length problem - they could be something worth changing for. In some ways the ICE 1 was like that (very old and hardly used TSC version), but the SC-44 or the Class 7/80x could very well be lucrative. (Not for me with 50 years of backlog, but someone more sensible!)

    Of course, on the other hand I really enjoy the ability to play various services. I'm really not into steam (mostly from a visibility perspective), but driving older stock has its real charm. The Class 101 or 421, or an EMD F7 all have their lovely spirit.

    Anyone who remembers the old TSC, can see all sides of it. Five routes but as soon as you want realism, zero mix and match.
     
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  17. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Didn't know that. I just assumed that most of these were US-based based on their content. I was just speculating anyways.

    ...which I'm absolutely looking forward to. I just didn't include it on account of it being 3rd party. Hopefully, it'll shine with good sales figures and inspire DTG :)

    Might be worth it for these small studios, especially something like Smokebox, to reach out to TSG, which is more or less a one-person studio, too. That might give them some perspective on TSW and whether or not an investment may be worth it.
     
  18. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Routes maybe, but in terms of locomotives Smokebox's Big Boy or other high quality TSC locos aren't any less complex than what we have in TSW. They look worse because of TSC's awful 2007 lighting engine, but the actual modeling on something like the Big Boy is down to bolt, and it has lots of advanced scripting. Hell, TSW reuses models from TSC, notably Spirit of Steam's locos uses the Bossman Games models from TSC as a base.
     
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  19. ApollonJustice

    ApollonJustice Well-Known Member

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    Personally, as a "modern" guy I prefer modern stuff. But this is a matter of taste.
     
  20. MLP Derick

    MLP Derick Well-Known Member

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    High Iron Simulations is US based but they do mostly scenario packs and they did 2 routes for TS and they have another route they are doing for TS later in the year also Skyhook are UK based and I don't count them as a US dev since they have done only 2 US routes and there working on a UK route currently
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
  21. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    High Iron isn't really a studio IIRC though. Isn't it essentially just a brand name for the work of various third parties?
     
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  22. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I believe it's Gary and a couple of others. They started with scenario packs and recently have produced entire routes.
    Their work is top notch in my experience.
     
  23. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Ehh, their routes are truly not all their own work though, since Gary did have help from both Rick Grout (G-Trax), Michael Stephan (Great Northerner/VNHRR) and Wayne Campbell (Big contributor for routes from Rick and Michael).
    aaaaaaa.png aaaaa.png

    I would consider HIS's routes around the same category as previous G-Trax routes.
     
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  24. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Honestly, one thing I *don't* want to do is rob TSC of all its developers. I have spoken with some of them and many of them are happy working with a game they know and at their pace knowing what they'll get out at the end. Same for many other third parties. When they want to start working in TSW we'll happily support them :)

    We do talk to a variety of people though for advice and information. This is not a "these things will never happen" it's more of a case of explaining that these things take time to get to the right level of research to where we're confident to start building it, and that yes, oddly enough, "these things arent as popular with players as those things" does indeed influence priorities. But, it's not a simple yes/no thing, A train being more popular than B train doesnt mean we don't ever make B train.

    As far as Amtrak support - they are extremely supportive, on our recording trip (many years ago now) we captured not only the ACS-64 but also the Acela you're going to be getting soon - we recorded OtherStuff(TM) too.

    Matt.
     
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  25. FredElliott

    FredElliott Well-Known Member

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    Can you ask JD to leak it? :cool:
     
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  26. ollyweston350

    ollyweston350 Active Member

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    So does this mean basically no more steam then? If so I can't lie I'm pretty disappointed. I'd have loved to have seen more steam, from shunting locomotives to tankers, all the way to mainline. There are so many great steam locomotives to choose from, evening star, princess Elizabeth class, A3, A4, tornado to name a few. All of which could be inserted in a heritage line pack, put onto existing UK routes and run as part of tours. They wouldn't have to have their own independent route
     
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  27. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Funny enough I just posted a new thread about my rapprochement with Spirit Of Steam. I really want to see an add on DLC for the route and another steam (or transition) era route.
     
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  28. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    It needs more, black 5, some big Pacifics, some shunter types and a Scot would complete. Unlikely to see all of that but something would be nice. Unless it's in the filed away draw now as the policy is one EMU per DLC and your lucky to get that....
     
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  29. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    A Scot is what we should have got in the first place for that route. I still fail to understand why they went with the Jubilee. I think a more grandiose part of the WCML would suit a Pacific more, like over Shap or Beattock. I agree that Black 5 or shunters would be good add ons though.
     
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  30. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I would also like to see a Jinty (Hornby Pseudo Smoke!) and maybe a 2-6-4T, the Wrenn model back in the day I could never quite afford!
     
  31. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    If they fore-dated (electrified) SoS to the early-mid ‘60s we could run all sorts of yummy traction to complement the existing Jubilee and 8F, including other appetising kettles like Stanier pacifics, delicious light blue 1st gen ‘leccies and mouth-watering green diesels. Surely a bunch of such lovely DLC packs would fill up DTG’s coffers faster than you can say « transition period »?
     
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  32. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Matt never said there's going to be no older content. He himself wants more older content and he said steam actually sold really well so he wants more of that too.
     
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  33. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Matt *did* say as much actually, during last week’s E2G stream. It was in response to comments in the chat, which were inspired by a forum thread with requests for more BR blue content. He has however since « clarified » (backtracked) his stance as there has been quite a backlash from mature players, but it is nevertheless welcome news. We will see in time if anything actually transpires from all this, or if it will be discreetly swept under the carpet under another succession of plastic units and EWS class 66s.
     
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  34. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    That's always been something that's baffled me - is the EWS trademark not owned by DB despite them purchasing EWS over a decade ago?
     
  35. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    I would reckon it is owned by DB, when the GWE route came put a DB 66 was included also.
     
  36. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Maybe that is exactly what should be done. Most 3rd parties of TSC clearly seem to be passionate. That is exactly what could help TSW. It is a new platform at the end of the day, so moving from TSC to TSW makes sense. And we, TSW customers, can see when the likes of AP join the game even slightly, it helps.
     
  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Probably because there was enough component compatibility between the two Staniers - starting with nearly identical cabs - that it was fairly easy to develop them in tandem (although a Black 5 would also have worked). Whereas the Fowler 10-wheelers were different in almost all respects.
     
  38. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    I suspect we will see these, Steam, I believe is just as popular as modern stuff. I think its the inbetween era that maybe isn't so strong.
    But only time will tell, we might get saturated with modern stuff and be begging for something not so soon
     
  39. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    I didn't figure out with a quick search but I would deduce DB Cargo UK owns it - their current owner / name.
    EWS to DB repaints started in 2009, so they wouldn't show up as current (except heritage livery or miniscule backdating).
    In TSC we have a couple EWS related packs, I would assume licensing is sorted.
    Lots of EWS content is available: classes 08, 33, 66 v1-v2, 67 x3, Settle-Carlisle route, and various cargo (freight) wagons. Maybe a lot more, I played these.
     
  40. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why they can't ask people who are in the area such as the NA community to get the material of the train and work from there? Is it because of the IP License that you still have to required to ask the company such as MTA, or NJT to allow to use in game? I also feel that none of the US Route that they make, will the same love just like UK route. Like you said i feel the worst that TSW3 will have lack of US Route At all which really such for us, especially those who are in US. :|:(
     
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  41. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Dtg don't have a lot of contacts in the US who can provide them with helpful and useful information. I'm assuming there are many challenges to be able to capture reference sounds and images or even get close to the train unless you're the railway worker. In order to use the actual livery, you would need the license first.
     
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  42. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I mean, the license isnt the problem, at least for the freight side of things, but it seems like its hard for DTG to get references mainly for sounds it seems like.

    And people keep questioning why DTG doesn't do more countries, if they have issues getting LEGIT references for the US, how hard do you think it will be for them to get references for another country, especially as far as Australia and Japan? (At least the latter is covered by UW)
     
  43. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    We are growing the group of people we talk to regularly in the US - though it's heavily skewed towards Northeast Passenger atm, that's not because we intended it that way - i'm just not going to turn down a great contact when they come along :)

    Even though you have a license, you are still required to run all content by the license holder to approve it, though that doesn't really get in the way of anything, it's just another step that needs to be completed to be able to release and is the same anywhere, not just the US.

    I can confirm the team put as much effort into the US content as they do the UK content or German content. Where it doesn't hit the mark you need to just keep telling us so we can keep improving what we do. Example - found out that this weekend one of the train setup guys has been working most of the weekend to get the US train he's working on "just so". The passion is there.

    Matt.
     
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  44. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but everything since then has been EWS only. And I'd presume DB would want their current brand to be used...
     
  45. Scott295

    Scott295 Well-Known Member

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    All of the DB/EWS liveries in game are now outdated. Even the classic burgundy EWS livery, which DB seem keen to preserve, now has the DB Logo on the front and sides as well. The DB Schenker livery has been replaced with just a DB logo on red background, identical to their German cousins.
     
  46. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    DTG Matt Thanks for replying back Matt, but there is one part that i kinda have to disagree with you on when you said "...the team put as much effort into the US content..." If that was the case, why did LIRR and the Metro North Route failed to have enough assets or scenery? Because it doesn't feel like busy City sight at all, it just feel so plain, not to mention there was not enough skyscraper view or cars or city vibe at all". I know you are really saying this to support the team that did, but the finish product show the opposite of what you said. :|:(

    I really do hope this would change this year, which i really do hope so, especially with the upcoming US Passenger route and the Acela. As of right now US route aren't up to standard at all. :|:(
     
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  47. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention a bunch of other missing iconic structures from other routes such as.....

    -The Pawtucket Central Falls train station on Boston Sprinter
    [​IMG]

    -Hill 582 on Cajon Pass
    [​IMG]

    -Memorial on Cajon Pass
    [​IMG]

    -Santa Fe Stack in San Bernardino (WHICH IS IN THE GAME FILES) on Cajon Pass
    [​IMG]
     
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  48. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    You could say the same with other routes that are missing some landmarks. I think it would come down to time i guess. They can't spend an endless amount of time adding every single landmark to each dlc. Aerial photography might not always show it clearly or whatever. Route building already takes a long time so they can't include every single unique landmark. Cab rides might make it difficult to see everything too. There's probably many other reasons dtg has which I don't know of obviously
     
  49. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like some people are asking for a level of realism of reality that can only be achieved by actual bloody reality.............. You know the stuff that lives on the outside of your gaming weapon of choice............

    Thank god this ain't a space simulator, they would be moaning because the entirety of the know universe wasn't exactly simulated down to the exact micro-pixle............

    People never fail to amaze me, jury is out on whether that's a good thing or not tho.........
     
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  50. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Asking for a few specific buildings doesn't sound like ACTUAL reality, not asking them to recreate some persons ranch located x amount of miles somewhere in the Mojave....
     
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