Qa Are Not The Problem

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by owenroser19, Jan 29, 2023.

  1. owenroser19

    owenroser19 Well-Known Member

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    I see people again and again slating the QA team for allowing poor quality content to be released and for not seeing blatant issues. I can promise you it’s not QA (or beta testers for that matter) that are at fault - they will be seeing all of the issues. It’s the upper management at DTG towers. There are release dates that will be met regardless of the quality a DLC piece is at, unless in extreme circumstances. This practice can be seen with plenty of other game developers, in fact it’s pretty common.

    I just want more people to be aware of this because it’s not fair to bash the QA team all the time.
     
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  2. sophieclarke1983

    sophieclarke1983 Well-Known Member

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    Yea definitely your spot on also it wasn’t fair way people being having a go at jasper rivets community manager either
     
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  3. GarethDavies21

    GarethDavies21 Member

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    I've worked and been around game QA, I have also spoken to the QA team at DTG a few times. All I'm going to say is I agree with this. The QA team are actually quite good. For the most part it's down to the pressures put on by the upper management of DTG wanting more for less
     
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  4. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

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    which begs the question. Have things got better or worse since Matt took up his position?
     
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  5. Cygnific

    Cygnific Well-Known Member

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    But... If you keep continueing your job at QA when time after time you see alot of the problems gets pushed aside by whoever is in charge then nothing changes and you are a part of the problem. Find another job (Not easy, I know) where you are taken seriously and appreciated. Same for the programmers and artists.
     
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  6. Cygnific

    Cygnific Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me that Matt has zero control if you look at the last couple of releases.
     
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  7. sophieclarke1983

    sophieclarke1983 Well-Known Member

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    Thing that puzzles me is why as someone pointed out on YouTube studio that makes omsi/omsi2 is smaller and there buses are polished to perfection yet DTG are bigger
     
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  8. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Just look how DTG technical page keep growing with every release,Yet ever attempt by DTG to fix things often leads to more problems not less.You would think with DTG adding more 3rd parties would help things would get better but in reality things are just getting worse.

    Prices going up on DLC...
    New DLC getting bigger but releasing more broken.
    New DLC getting filled up with so much non related train stuff it leads one to wonder does DTG even remember what the game there making was originally about.TRAINs and driving them,in case they forgot.
     
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  9. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Yep. And as I said elsewhere, how many times do we look outside at 'shiny things'? Like snow flurries and catenary/third rail sparkies? Not much I should imagine, once the novelty's worn off. Plus it does nothing to make the driving any better. Concentrate on lighting, and the driving experience, not pretties.
     
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  10. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    OMSI is by no means polished, that game is a bugged mess alot of the time, it runs so poorly, has almost no support and has catastrophic glitches.

    If there is any game I would compare too, it wouldn't be that.
    Heck, even SCS has issues/ bugs/ asset problems and they are fantastic devs. (Who add free content to existing dlcs)
     
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  11. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    On long runs between stations, especially between Haymarket and Linlithgow, I position the 3 camera by the panto and wait for the sparks.
    I'll never tire of that
     
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  12. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Well-Known Member

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    Even if it was QA, it's still upper management's fault for not doing anything about it
     
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  13. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    One of the most pathetic and unforgiveable aspects of these single new train routes (not including recycled trains) is with only a single new train type being produced for a new route is it still being released with unknown levels of testing and more or less broken.If dtg+3rd parties weren't trying to cram routes full of pointless non train stuff maybe these new trains might get released in slightly better condition.I understand there are time crunches and release date requirements for new dlc but put more people on the new trains and less on non train things.People want to buy new routes and new trains not more extra fluff.(My apologies to those who want extra fluff.)

    I'm still waiting for a steam loco shunter maybe a 060 for the spirit of steam route to get announced.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
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  14. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, because let's pretend that they made a very bare-bones Class 385.
    Let's ignore the fact that it comes with SDO functionality, simulated neutral sections (even if its simple), functional PIS + passenger announcements, a pretty detailed touchscreen MFD, the usual safety systems, a working guard panel, and minor details such as the roll-blinds in first class.

    There are other things to criticize this release for, but implying that they focused on non-train 'extra fluff' stuff instead of focusing on the train...is just false. Rivet's iteration of the Class 385 is very well detailed when it comes to TSW content, they've definitely put some work into it
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
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  15. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

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    That would be great if it worked correctly
    not to forget the neutral section cuts out when the cab hots it and not the pantagrapgh. Not to mention the missing warning signs
    That are bugged and not to mention the announcements that shouldn't even be there like fast train approaching
    what exactly are you suppose to do with the working guards panel which sometimes doesn't work. you have to be so fast to beat the AI driver that it becomes a farce
    I'll give you the blinds though.
    maybe they thought if they put in a piano and a working lift and maybe some moths, people wouldn't notice a broken train in a train simulator
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
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  16. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Just so you know my opinion wasn't targeting any specific route i'm just referring to routes where more work appears to go into extras and the train should get extra effort to make it the stand out for the dlc it comes in.

    If you want me to give rivets some props then i'll give it to them for the routes tram service they created,it's the best feature on this route and it's the most train related extra in it.What a shame it's totally useless to the player in anyway but at least we can still play a piano in the station.

    Heck just skip the 385 and ride the elevator the trip shorter and there's only 2 stops to boot.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  17. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Let's not pretend like this neutral sections simulation is anything new, when we have had something like it since LIRR with the third rail gaps. And those were properly simulated with power cutting off due to the gaps in the third rail, not just some trackside trigger point.
     
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  18. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    The only way to make DTG move, in quality and to have a return has better finished dlc, and not to buy what comes out, systematically.
    Me, for the moment finished giving them my money.
    I will resume my purchases when all the old bugs are resolved.
     
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  19. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Not true. See: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/riding-the-trams.64467/

    You can always just ignore it. The people who build the scenery are normally not the same who do the train set up. And afaik, the scenery on the route is extremely well done (even if you ignore the piano). I like the fact that the scenery/track design team always goes the long way around to add some extra stuff. Even the (probably justified) much criticised Arosa line as some very nice scenery parts, at least in Arosa, walking around the lake. That the 385 doesn't meet expectations has in first instance nothing to do with the piano, the bagpipe or the elevator (which is btw a feature implemented by DTG and Skyhook).
     
  20. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    There is something I don't understand. If management decides to release the product on a date even though it has multiple bugs and ignores the QA team's reports, I imagine it's because they want to make a cash inflow. So, if many of us stop buying at full price because of this low quality, aren't they really making far less money than they could?
    Isn't that contradictory? They need money but they stop bringing in the money they should.
    If they waited a few more days to release a more polished product, the good reviews would make a lot more people buy it at full price and make a lot more money.
    Then there are the workers. I don't think they work in a good environment with the constant stress of releasing the product in a hurry and I don't think they are indifferent to customer reviews either. It is always more satisfying to know that the fruits of your efforts are well received by the public and the team is congratulated than to hear and read negative reviews at every turn. Yes, as an employee you know that you are not 100% to blame but it is very demoralising.

    In short, I believe that this policy of hasty launches is not good for the image and prestige of the company, nor for its employees, nor economically.
     
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  21. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    But the scenery/route building also has many shortcomings. Like the horrible light transitions when entering tunnels, random patches of grass in the middle of the track or the light baking missing from pretty much everywhere, bad trackside signals and all the issues that the modders currently are trying to fix. Just look at the work in progress enhancement pack for the route and see what the modders can do - and the devs could do the same with ease if they just took a little bit more care when creating the assets.
     
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  22. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    And they do! The demo in the livestream worked fine (even if Matt accidentally selected the wrong ones), and I've yet to see any reports that SDO does not work.

    Again, I have not yet seen any mentions of these being bugged, not in gameplay or in the forums technical section.
    And I don't see how the 'fast train approaching' announcement makes it any worse, it's simply an additional option for if the player wants to use it or not.

    And this is precisely the thing I was talking about in my original post. So what if there's a extra scenery details like moths, pianos, working lifts, etc??? This addresses one of my own complaints that I've had with TSW, in that the world often feels lifeless and can detract from the immersion of a simulator. I appreciate they've at least addressed this, but not only that, but the train that comes with this DLC does not lack details like what's being implied here.

    Sorry pal, but what exactly is the point that you're trying to make then? I already directly addressed this in my original post. I don't believe DTG or Rivet slack off when it comes to train modeling— they're often very well modeled and come with the functionality that us players come to expect.
    In fact, I'd argue that Rivets Class 385 are among one of the better made trains in TSW because of the features I've listed.

    What's soo wrong with having the extras? They're very clearly not taking away from the train itself.
     
  23. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I've never thought QA is the issue here because QA in this case is probably doing exactly what they're asked to do, so then the issue comes back to what questions are people being asked, are those answers accurate and are those answers then listened to.

    I remember one example where DTG got this right... Way back when, on the release announcement video for WSR someone noted that the bar underneath the window on the class 47 should be curved rather than straight. Within two days there was a new version with the bar curved appropriately and that's what was released

    OK, so we now have seven versions of each DLC and technically it's much harder to get revisions out, but let's be honest, when LondonMidland can get five changes done in a day with basic tools including direct and ambient lighting, colour signals including their surrounds, and PIS adjustments including colour, brightness and size, one does wonder why it took a day back then and months now?

    Then again preview (and comment streams) are now done two days before release, which doesn't give people any time to give constructive feedback, or for devs to work on and update minor issues. I'm not expecting much here as DTG do seem to be retracting quality wise on a few things, and the fact we get one release stream way too late to make many changes is an indicator for me...
     
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  24. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    I know about this one and if your on PC and have the modes or whatever god mode is you can do some interesting things with the trams which is great but those of us on consoles don't normally have the ability to do such things like that and having ones console moded may also not be easy or inexpensive for such possibility options.But at least those who can share there efforts with others is very much appreciated.
     
  25. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I do not care who is the guilty. I just see the stupid bug in releases, they should have noticed and fixed throughout the process. I think it is more the issue there is a separate QA team. responsibility to make sure there are no bugs should lay in the dev teams.If one person builds something, someone else should always check the work and give feedback. As long as this is not common practice quality will suck.
     
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  26. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Rolling out a wrong built version on release date is quite an ´achievement´. It tells me (the paying public) that basic control has been lost and that there´re some serious communication mishaps.
    It´s a worthless exercise to find out who´s to blame, QA or not QA, the result for the customer is the same.
    I can´t get rid of the feeling that DTG has its several project streams badly integrated. And that potentializes even more when a 3rd party dev is involved.
    Short: They don´t get their act together.
     
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  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think you're thinking too basic here...

    What I think happens (given the number of times console players have had the wrong version or somehow a dead version on release day) is that DTG give the console stores a release date. A week or so prior to that release date they upload a candidate. This isn't the full release candidate but enough for console store automation to load up, check requirements and DLC compatibility etc and that it doesn't kill the machine.
    Then, DTG go live but either forget or somehow don't replace this pre-release version with the release candidate
    So it's not that the release candidate isn't tested, it's the publication issue with the console stores and validation of their upload
    This doesn't affect steam as that does live updates and doesn't bother testing

    Again, this is a "what I think" but it makes sense...
     
  28. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Are you kidding? The scenery on this route is not well done. It suffers from the same problems most TSW routes suffer from in that the ballast extends way too far up/down the embankments and there is not enough close lineside foliage. The line doesn't feel enclosed enough. Here is a shot from just south of Bishopbriggs both in game and in real life but it's like this along the whole route.

    Screenshot 2023-01-30 at 13.56.44.png

    Screenshot 2023-01-30 at 13.57.09.png
     
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  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    There's loads of examples of similar things on routes. Higham tunnel portal is a good one (half the height in game) or the embankments at Swanscombe where they fudged the steps up the side of what IRL is a steep gorge, but in game is a rolling hill with a whopping great staircase whomped onto it

    But to be fair the pics you posted show about a two or three foot difference in the ballast width
     
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  30. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Still, if you managed to launch with the wrong build, then there is something wrong in your process. And this is not the first time that something like this happened. How many times did we hear "we have no idea how this happened, someone should have catch that, we will look into it"?
     
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    About once every three months (ie every release)
     
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  32. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    If less people were in the i must buy the newest route ASAP camp,then more people could know what there in for by waiting 1 day because by then most of the obvious issues might have been found so then one can decide if the issues matter enough to buy or wait at that point.I know one can get a refund but that seems like just a extra hassle after your already bummed about buying a dlc and finding it bad enough to request a refund.
     
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  33. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

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    Trouble is, if less people were in said "I must buy newest route ASAP", there would be fewer people available to find the bugs.
     
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  34. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    So what your really saying is "Your dammed if you do and possibly dammed if you don't"...So DTG holds all the cards and players are left with the 2 jokers that came with said deck.
     
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  35. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Here is the thing: it should not be the customers' task to beta test the product and find issues that can easily be stopped in 30 minutes of gameplay. Such glaring issues should be stopped during development before public release. If your own team cannot do that, then make a closed beta test system of real players who are willing to do it for free and give feedback before the real release. I am pretty sure plenty of people would be willing to do that, if that means obvious bugs and issues are fixed before release.
     
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  36. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    You don't necessarily need a lot of people to find all the bugs. If you're a native to the route, you would know exactly what is missing. If you spend a couple hours exploring the route, train, scenery, playing at night to see what the night lighting is like, then you'll be able to list all the issues. Sounds can be judged by driving the train. Signalling issues can be found by doing a couple runs. You don't need a whole day to find most of the major issues
     
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  37. aeronautic237

    aeronautic237 Well-Known Member

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    You could look at it like that if you want. I don't really know.
    Absolutely! There are testing teams for a reason! Since I don't know how DTG operates I can't really say anything, but something feels wrong - almost like we're missing something. Then again, I may just be biased towards DTG...
    Perhaps, but I find that if a route local to me is created, I will be most excited by the fact that a route local to me has been created. I often find that most of the issues are pointed out by people who aren't local to the route (but sample size is small so I can't confirm). That's not to say local people don't notice anything. With Scotrail eXpress, many locals were quick to find issues that only they could find.

    With regards to the other issues you mentioned, night lighting is always going to be subjective, some people like the Dresden-Riesa night lighting, but others don't. Sounds, again, are subjective. Most people here find the Electrostars to be too quiet in the cab, but I believe they are indeed that quiet in real life. Signalling is down to chance. I have never actually had a red light issue on any route (including London Commuter) until I started playing the specific services that people were complaining about. I managed about 100 services on that route until I decided to try 1f08. I can imagine on that route finding issues with particular services is quite the challenge. Even on a timetable such as that on Northern Transpennine - it would be quite time-consuming testing every service from when you spawn in (AFAIK, they test the timetable as a full 24h run instead of spawning in at each service start time to see what breaks, but the latter doesn't seem practical to do, especially since 1f08 doesn't run into any issues until Gatwick Airport.)
     
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  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    DTG didn't "notice" things on the SEHS route, and they work within 2 miles of it. Not sure "local knowledge" is going to change what they do tbh
     
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  39. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anything is going to change what they do! "Build it, flog it out to the masses and then fix (sort of), what is wrong with it." If that doesn't work, create a new version of the game and promise everything will be good in the new thing.
     
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  40. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    TSW3 should be slapped with an Early Access tag on it. Then customers will honestly know what they're getting into and would have the proper frame of mind. As issues come up people would know "ok it's not a complete product yet and I could provide feedback to the forums" or whatever. With it pretending to be a full release does cause a lot of upset feelings. Then again I don't think the game would sell as much with an Early Access tag on it.
     
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  41. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Too true!
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    DTG Seem to be promising less of late, so maybe thats a good thing because people will look to their own opinions rather than whatever "hype" is drummed up
    Which would be a misrepresentation... EA should be for when games are not complete and you're getting "early access" to the code whilst it improves. That's not what's happening here, so EA wouldn't be right.
     
  43. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    As a PC player, I was quite surprised to see a last-minute postponement of the Playstation release of Glasgow-Edinburgh.

    I mean, if DTG/Rivet was still testing things and not sure it all works, why even announce a release date? Seems to me they weren't ready to announce a release date yet.

    Can't DTG/Rivet learn from SCS Software? I've never seen them delay a release. Seems to me they only announce release dates after the product is basically already finished. Not sure how they do it, but they sure do it a lot better than DTG/Rivet. Oh and that's releases without notable bugs, too.
     
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  44. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I think the unnecessary long catenary beams are a more notable incorrectness. See yellow circles. Not only are they different from the real thing (something only someone familiar with the route would see), they're also longer than they realistically need to be (which is something everybody could notice).

    upload_2023-2-2_8-5-1.png
     
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  45. SBos

    SBos Well-Known Member

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    Despite assurances things would improve they don’t and that’s the issue. The latest release from Rivet resulted in somebody posting a list of over 40 issues/bugs found on release day. When some of these issues affect gameplay it’s totally unacceptable as is any scenario that doesn’t work as that shows how much quality control their actually is.

    Apart from still waiting for the add on manager, in my case, my biggest gripe would be London Commuter and all the advertising around Rushour. Now here we are some 18 months down the line and we still don’t have Rushour passengers on the route. To me this route was an exercise by DTG to see how many timetabled services they could fit on a route and that prevented the Rushour passengers being introduced. Many of these services are just a few minutes long and a waste of time but that’s how they got the numbers up.

    Another small gripe would be things like they decided to give passengers umbrellas in the rain, nice touch, but they simply give everybody one which is the easiest thing to do but unrealistic.
     
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  46. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    That's a bit dramatic. There are problems with the 385 but it is far from broken. I'm having a lot of fun driving it, and I think it has a lot more unique features than a lot of other trains in the game.
     
  47. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    This is something I've always wanted Matt or someone else to elaborate on. Why is it that someone working in their free time can get more done to fix the game in a day than the actual people whose job it is to fix the game in weeks, or even months? What excuse is there for fixes taking so long to arrive? When other games have issues of a similar magnitude you can bet they'll be fixed within days, and these are sometimes by teams smaller than DTG.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
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  48. It's nice to pass the blame sometimes but the fact of the matter is.. the only ones to blame for a problematic product thet sells well are the people that keep buying it.
     
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  49. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Following closely the notorious "modder threads" I´ve asked myself exactly that. Without any conclusion but with a suspicion:

    How much does it cost to launch patches for 7 different platforms on Sony PS, MS XBox and Steam or Epic)? And that on a frequent base?
    I´m quite sure that these hosts aren´t doing anything for free. Maybe therein lies the answer, at least partly, to that question.
     
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  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    But this is simply answered. If it costs x amount to release a patch or fix on consoles (It's free on Steam, not sure about Epic) then make a means of releasing them on a periodic basis so you know that cost up front.
    If we knew that the Tuesday after roadmap we were going to get an update, and those fixes and updates were talked about in the roadmap it would be better than what we have now which is NOTHING, and then an update with a release notes a few hours later and then everyone finding the next bath of issues that were not fixed by the update or even cause by it
    I'm sure there is a financial hit on DTG to release updates, and this has to be offset by a DLC release most likely but there have been plenty of out of sequence updates as well so maybe a periodic schedule would work better (and fit better into the roadmap scheme)
     
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