Linke Rheinstrecke: Mainz-koblenz

I think the chances of getting both IC and IR are vanishingly small.

 

Even through this is a great route, I'm kind of disappointed, that this route doesn't go to Frankfurt like in TSC and that we only one new train and no other. Maybe future DLCs could bring out more trains to the route and maybe we'll also get a second Time table mode for modern Trains like for the Br429 (RE2)

 

Okay, to clarify I've made a timeline. This basically is a list of liveries through time as I understand it, though there may of course be mistakes. Feel free to make correction, I'll keep on editing the list as more information gets known.

DB (passenger stock and locomotive) paint schemes

pre-1974
Locomotives mostly in the 120 km/h+ cobalt/steelblue livery, coaches in mixes of green, blue and dark red for dining cars. This is not my area of expertise, other people know more about the liveries in this era. Some Pop-farben were also around as a result of a 1961, but these were pretty much exclusive to certain multiple units and S-bahn services. TEE trains differed by having a beige/red livery. The (at the time 1st class only) InterCity concept introduced in 1971 as a national counterpart to the TEE services also uses the TEE paint scheme of beige/red.

1974
Beige/blue gets introduced by DB. Beige/blue is the new paint scheme for locomotives and rolling stock alike. Only TEE and IC trains retain their original beige/red livery. Repainting took a while as DB only repainted into blue/beige during 'hauptuntersuchungen' and then still only when the locomotive needed a repaint. Because of this some locomotives retain their original blue or green paint well into the '90s. Notably the 'silberlinge' retain their unpainted finish, with just the previously black part at the bottom of the coach and the contral car ends receiving blue and beige colours.

1979
After two years of small scale trials on certain routes InterCity '79 introduces 2nd class to the InterCity services, aswell as a higher service frequency. The 2nd class coaches in InterCity services retain their beige/blue liveries, or get delivered with them (as some Eurofima prototypes were blue/beige aswell).

1987
Deutsche Bundesbahn shows of it's radically new livery concept. From now on every 'product' they offer (IC/EC, IR, RE/RB and S-bahn) will have it's own colour scheme. For IC/EC services this was an orient red band across the windows with a light violet contrast stripe underneath, on a light grey base. For IR services this was a light blue band across the windows, with an even lighter blue stripe underneath. The RE/RB services had mint-turqouise around the windows, with a lighter turquoise beneath and S-bahn featured Orange around the windows with a yellow stripe underneath. All loco's, except those used with fixed S-bahn rakes, recieve an all-over orient red paint scheme with light grey contrast areas underneath the windshield. Onceagain, repainting was not immediate but rather a slow process. Only the IR services were rather quick to be painted in the correct up to date colour scheme as most coaches for these services were newly rebuilt.

1991
With the unification of Germany many coaches and locos from the east with their original paint schemes find themselves in West-German consists. Suddenly a large variety of schemes can be seen. For the sake of simplicity I won't also list all the East-German paint schemes. The new influx of stock wasn't immediately repainted either, and was still under DR management so didn't recieve DB logos either (until the merger). The ICE's get a new livery at their introduction, using the same colours as IC services, but having a narrower band running just below the windows, aswell as the light gray colour continuing onto the roof.

1994
With the 'Bahnreform' DB and DR are merged into DB AG, a new privatized railway company. DB AG recieves a new logo which is (with some exceptions, especially on the locos that still had a cast DB logo) rather quickly applied to all stock.

1997
Alongside the delivery of the new BR 101 express locos (the first few of which were still orient red, though with new contrast bars instead of a larger area below the windows), DB introduces a new paint scheme. IC services get a traffic red band across the windows, ICE a narrow traffic red band below the windows, RE/RB and S-bahn get an all-over red paint scheme with a white stripe at the bottom of the coach.Notably IR coaches maintain their original colour. All locomotives are painted in an all-over traffic red with light grey (or really white) contrast bars beside the logos beneath the windshield. On passenger locos and stock this paint scheme is relatively quickly adapted, especially considering that DB didn't manage a unified paint schem since the attemt at blue/beige in 1974. From the mid '00s onwards older paint schemes were a very rare sight, except on some older freight locomotives.

2003
On IC trains the ICE colour scheme was copied, albeit with a dark grey roof. IC coaches lost the red band across the windows, and gained a narrower red band underneath the windows. Due to the decrease in InterRegio lines these services lose their seperate paint scheme, with the coaches also recieving the same paint scheme as the other IC coaches. In 2006 the IR would stop to exist alltoghether.

Edit: This kids site by DB also has a surprisingly good overview of how the Intercity liveries changed. It goes as far as stating that all 2nd class IC coaches were beige blue, and all 1st class IC coaches beige/red.

 

I lived in Budenheim from 1971 to 1982, so I‘m really excited to see this route in TSW3.

 

I can help out with this (although it's of course not relevant to any current TSW route). The default color of DB before 1974 was dark green: bottle-green until 1957 (or so), the somewhat lighter chrome oxide green thereafter. This color was applied to all Lokal- and Eilzüge, and all electric road locomotives except for expresses. The exceptions: dining cars were owned and operated by DSG and were red. Express trains, i.e. those that ran faster than 120 km/h, had steel blue, later cobalt blue, engines and first-class coaches (the second class were green). TEEs used the international beige-dark red scheme; from 1962- 1966 the Rheingold was not part of the TEE system and had a unique beige-cobalt blue livery, but thereafter conformed to TEE. Silberlinge (n-Wagen) of course were in natural stainless; they didn't get painted until the mint-green era.

Diesel and shunting locomotives were burgundy-red; steam engines were black with red trim.

The first break in the all-over dull color regime came in 1971, and the introduction of the BR 420 in anticipation of the Munich Olympics. These were light gray (practically white) with window bands of aqua (München S-Bahn) or orange (Stuttgart S-Bahn). These in turn gave rise to the "pop-color" experiments of the early 1970s, until all gave way in 1974 to Ocean Blue.

 

In Intercity trains (which that article seems to be about), but the Am coaches used in D-trains were blue-beige, as were composites.

Excellent post (of yours) btw.

 

That is completely correct, I didn't specify that in my original post

 

This route will be perfect if Dovetail manage to add varied rolling stock colours which were common around the time and lots of layers with the BR155.

 

Br155 would once again need a different livery and an older cab interior.

 

If the route hasn't changed much since the time it was set then it does allow the potential for 'expansion packs' with different era timetables and rolling stock, which I think would be pretty cool.

 

Presumably they could do a separate timetable which uses suitable layers from other German routes? Personally I wouldn't want incorrectly depicted trains for the period set. We get so few period routes as it is without them being spoiled by unrealistic layers as has happened with some other routes, WCL I am looking at you!

 

Yeah something like the Diesel Legends pack, just the other way around. I'd love to see that. I think this opens the opportunity for a Stadler FLIRT 3 loco-DLC, if I am correct.

 

I also think a seperate modern timetable would be the best Option, but its not likely that its included at Release, maybe will come as some sort of expansion Pack. And if you'd set it a few years back before all the Flirts and newer Emus, you can use the 101, 401, 403, 146, 143, 425 and any freigt loco.

But fear not, this route will be a scenario creation heaven if a modern Timetable isnt included

 

we need the Flirt 3 loco for this route its a must so pumped for this route ill be taking a ICE on it for shore also hope for a extension someday to Frankfurt HBF

 

Frankfurt Hbf is not happening any time soon. It would kill all consoles and 95% of PCs.

 

145s began delivery in 1997, according to Wiki. 152s in 1996. Verkerhrsrot was also introduced around the time, so the 155s wouldn't look out of place.

 

The 145 and especially 152 would be nice to see one day, and could fot here but perhaps even better on different routes. As for the 155, it only slowly got a new livery. Examples in their original DR bordeaux red livery (albeit with DB AG logos) or orient red could be seen into the 2000's, as freight locos were slow to adapt to the livery changeover. If they do decide to include it I think a DR bordeaux red with DB AG logos or orient red livery would make it way more fitting, without being too much of an effort.

 

Absolutely agree with your suggestions Swisstrains - I'd be very happy with an alternate timetable so we can use a lot of our existing content instead of potentially just having two locos (103/110) at bare minimum actually suitable to the time period. For example, as others have pointed out in the thread, the current ICE 1 iteration in TSW wouldn't feel right with the older-period Koblenz-Mainz route, so a modern timetable where we can actually have the ICE 1 instead of not having it at all and, of course as you say, the BR 101 - which is one of my all-time favourite locos too - and the cab car would be epic if ever came to fruition.

I highly recommend putting your detailed suggestions in the suggestions thread so that your ideas above can be seen better by DTG - as I'd love a modern timetable. Isle of Wight is good example, although technically a new route though. I'd say what they did with Great Western Express having a loco expansion/timetable for a different era is what's needed and have the IC Cab Car as a standalone loco DLC for use both here and across the existing German routes in TSW.

 

I feel like 155s getting their liveries slightly earlier than reality is a suspension of belief I can cope with if it means a decent amount of freight.

 

Although given the prestige and likely popularity of this route, it wouldn't be beyond imagination for DTG to throw in a repaint of an existing train, like they did for the two Dresden routes.

 

IIRC (I haven't got the route yet) but isn't the class 155 on BRO blue? If so then surely it is a possibility that they could include it in a suitable livery.

I know very little about German trains (I am learning slowly) but presumably the two other loco's are not freight loco's? Then again are there suitable period freight wagons already?

 

Yes, no freight on a route like the rhine valley is much much more unrealistic than a 155 in DB Red in 97. I get being against modern locos layering on the route, so am i, but a 155 isnt entirely out of place there and no freight as playable or AI services would come near a dealbreaker imo.

 

That's true, I'd forgotten the blue 155. As for wagons, it should be fine, it wasn't that long ago.

 

It would be a slight stretch of reality, since the 143 and 155 have both had cab refurbs since then, but I agree it would be far less of a stretch than having no freight (or even more ridiculous, having a 110 hauling cargo). And, really, how much work could it be to repaint one or both in DR burgundy?

 

Here's a proposition for Dovetail to make a "quick buck" that would actually make sense. Do a New Journeys style pack of reskins with an orient red 155, maybe also 112 and 143, an ICE 1 with a two-tone stripe, and additional liveries for the 110/103/coaching stock. Could even be a pure reskin pack where you need to own the original loco for it to appear in the respective livery on the route.

 

I am looking forward to this route. My only concern is the potential lack of river traffic and trains running on the Left bank, as these can frequently be seen whilst travelling between Koblenz and Mainz. The LHS was used for diversions when the RHS was blocked, and the regular "local" passenger services went from Koblenz to Frankfurt, and if you timed it right, it was quicker to take them to get to Koblenze as the freight normally had to hold for them.
Still the RHS has plenty of opportunities for extra trains, including steam, and a fair bit of variety.
I wonder if they will include the branch from Boppard to Emmelshausen.
The picture above was taken, at Boppard, in December 1998.

 

The problem with coaching stock is that the IC-liveried 106 and 284 we have didn't exist back then, Silberlinge wouldn't have been red and only did local services, and there's no guarantee we will even get the proper TEE/IC Eurofima coaches for the 103--- and after all that, it still doesn't solve the problem of D-Züge and Interregios, which had (two different kinds of) x-wagen which we don't have. In short, there's nothing for the 110 to pull. In 1997 it didn't do freight and it didn't do RBs.

What I'm really afraid of is that we will get a route on which the only passenger traffic is luxury-express (which would be nonsense)- or worse yet, filled out with 110s pulling red n-wagen (which would be almost as bad as 146s with Dostos).

In other words, DTG - ARE YOU LISTENING, MATT? - the only way this route can be pulled off anything like convincingly is to go beyond the usual scant ration of new rolling stock, because the only way to populate it adequately would be to create, at the very least, new coaches not just for the 103s but also for the (presumed) 110s, probably 262/264 series in blue/white. At a stretch you could repaint the Bremen n-Wagen in mint, although the modernised interiors are wrong.

 

Here we go:


Halberstadt 1997: a 143 still in its DR dark red but with a DB Kekse added, hauling old m-Wagen (or DR coaches?) in Nahverkehr Minttürkis. This I think would be do-able, using n-Wagen, since it amounts to nothing more than quickie repaints.

 

But the screenshots in the very first post of this threat show the n-Wagen in mint…

 

You are spot on and for the long distance coaches they also have Orange and Cream Städteexpress Deutsche Reichsbahn DDR German Democratic Republic Produktfarben assuming they are still around at this time. Mainz Hbf DB Baureihe 420 S-Bahn Rhein Main Orange & Cream AI S9 Wiesbaden Hbf Hanau via Mainz Hbf Rbf Mainz Bischofsheim

 

When I first laid eyes upon that BR103 screenshot during the stream I thought, Be still, my beating heart…!

Very much looking forward to this route, and praying that DTG are listening to the great feedback especially that on potential layers/substitutions suitable for the period.

 

Well, yes, exactly. I was just distinguishing them from the coaches in my photo, which definitely aren't. But in the photo they are hooked up behind a 110, which is all wrong. 110s hadn't yet been demoted to mere local service.

 

It’s not ‘all’ wrong. It was in 1997 actually that many 110s were fitted with KWS for exactly that purpose. At any rate, the times of the 110s pulling more esteemed services were long gone by the 90s.

 

Yeah, I definitely remember 110-hauled local services by the late 90s.

 

As far as I'm aware by the '90s they had already been mostly displaced from nearly all express services. They could still be seen on D and IR trains, and on certain short sections of lines (in between to terminus stations in both of which a loco change occurs for example, or from Stuttgart to the Swiss border). At this point they already concentrated quite heavily on RE and some RB services.

 

From 1962 the 110s were the top locos
From 1970 they were made secondary by the introduction of 103s
From 1974 they were equalled by 111s
From 1986 they became tertiary after the introduction of 120s
From 1991 the introduction of ICEs pushed everything down one level
After reunification 112s were introduced, slightly above the 110s
From 1999 146s pushed the 110s down further
After that the introduction of more multiple units effectively retired them

 

The BR 112 played a major role in the 110's downgrade from top services I think. It was a newer and more economical locomotive, partially designed to operate on the IR services that would otherwise have fit the 110's quite well (alongside the 111 of course, which did become a mainstay of IR services along the 112 and later 103). By the 1990's the 110's were already approaching 30 years of service (for comparison, most BR 101 locomotives are nearly completely worn out after just 25 years of express service, and they are way more advanced and built for that work), most of which at their maximum capacity. As quite a few 110's suffered from siginificant bogie wear (one of the reasons their top speeds were decreased more and more from the '90s onwards), it probably just didn't make sense to put these already worn out locos on intensive long distance services while there was also a use for them in regional services.

Then again, DB was more dynamic with their locomotive service allocation in the '90s, especially before the division into Cargo/Regio/Fernverkehr. It was completely possible to see a BR 110 replace a faulty loco on an IR or even IC services. For a long time sometimes even freight locos like the BR 151 and 155 could sometimes come into use on IR or Regional services if the need was there. DTG could probably throw in at least a few services where the 110 does IC, IR or D-train work. Real life timetables also do reflect the 110 being regularly scheduled on at least the D-trains. Throw in one or two IR/IC services and you got a nice express service selection for the 110 that would fit reality in the timetable aswell.

 

In fact, two long distance lines were scheduled using 110s on this route in 97, The IC "Airport Express", IC-922/923 and the D-Zug "Italia Express", D-1204/1205. Both were pretty exotic, the D-Zug with many Italian and German coaches, of which some with sleeping configuration and the IC with only 3 coaches.

And that, for me, somehow reflects the problem with the set time frame of the late 90s. It was very colourful and very divers. Not one train looked like the other. It will feel boring (maybe the wrong word, but simply non-fitting), if all ICs look alike. Even worse, if all IRs will look like ICs or if all REs and RBs are mint green with a red loco in front. That simply was not the 90s...

But, I guess, we have to start somewhere. I am looking forward to what DTG will offer us and hope that it will match my taste as well...

 

Indeed. Sometimes, albeit rarely, 110s could even be seen pulling freight. The Bundesbahn and the Deutsche Bahn prior to sectorisation used whatever was available and would get the job done.

Source - 1995

 

Agreed. As you said, you've got to start somewhere. If the choice is between having a monotonous 90s and only sticking to modern content, I'd rather have the monotonous 90s instead. Theoretically, if we can get DTG to do a few 90s routes (no lack of suggestions and variety there), we might be able to fix a lot with substitution down the line, but that's probably wishful thinking.

 

I would be really interested to learn why this year was chosen. I think it would have been an easier transition into the 90s, if, for this route, the timetable would have been set just a few years later. Some of the already existing stuff could have been used, in order to bring the diversity up, without DTG having to invest into lots of new paint schemes. One could have used already existing IC coaches (again, maybe only one or two per train, but it would have resembled a bit more the diversity feel), the 146 and more modern cargo locos could have been used, as they are already existing. And all that with still the mint green stuff driving around, plus the 103, which clearly is the highlight of this DLC.

The next route could then have been truly set in the 90s, with reused stuff from Koblenz Mainz plus extra new bits.

 

I assume it's linked to Matt saying:

I reckon they specifically wanted to release a route without any modern stuff and see how it goes down. BRO was a mix of new and old and now they want to see how it goes with no modern traction involved.

 

During the late 90s the 110 were mainly used by local trains, so for Koblenz - Mainz in 1997 110 hauling the local services would not be wrong. Although at least around 2000 around Koblenz mostly the 143 was used, the 110 ran mainly towards Cologne (on both sides of the Rhine).

After privatisation in 1994 Deutsche Bahn was split in four "Geschäftsbereiche" (operational division), "Personenverkehr" (for passenger trains), "Güterverkehr" (for freight trains), "Traktion & Werke" (for locos and depots) and "Netz" (for infrastructure). This continued until 1999, so 1997 both 103 and 110, also the new 101 were at the same "GB Traktion" and could, theoretically, used in front of all kind of trains. In 1999 DB was split in separate AG (plc), "DB Reise & Touristik AG" (later DB Fernverkehr AG, for long-distance trains like IR, IC and ICE), "DB Regio AG" (for local trains), "DB Cargo AG" (for freight trains), "DB Netz AG" (for tracks & signals), "DB Station & Service AG" (for the station facilities). At this point all the locos were assigned to one of those companies, all 110 went to DB Regio at this point. This continued until 2005, when around 30 110 were renumbered 115 and sold to "DB Autozug", a subsidiary of DB Fernverkehr, for hauling the motorail trains. So between 1999 und 2005 you shouldn't have seen any 110 in front of IR or IC trains, but there were exceptions. To name two famous exceptions, there was one Silberling train hauled by 101 on Munich - Garmisch until around 2005, and around 2000 there was a RE train between Cologne and Emmerich hauled by 103. Both locos were needed for services coming from Austria/the Netherlands with NS/OBB locos, but as there was no corresponding train going outwards at that time, they hauled a local train instead.

Anyway, I hope the 103 and 110 correctly show "GB Traktion" on the locos and not "DB Fernverkehr" or "DB Regio". And please, with new DB logos, the old Bundesbahn logo was really really rare on locos in 1997. On freight cars it was often seen until a few years ago though.

 

The mixed colours thing is where livery designer comes into its own I think - usually that's a hindrance, as you don't want mixed trains of certain types, but for n-wagen and 110s, as soon as those repaints come in (as with Bremen - Oldenburg) then voila

 

Well that depended a bit on the loco. Those like the 103 which had a cast plaque for a Kekse, often it was simply repainted red.

 

It does seem though that there would be room to use the 112 here- though not of course in Verkehrsrot. Maybe a subsequent DLC of an IR consist, with Orientrot 112 + Aim/Bim coaches in white/blue?

 

Interestingly the coach types listed by Datenbank Fernverkehr (which I believe you also used), state a very specific type of coach. These are rebuilt versions of the LHB Nahverkehrsprototypen wagons. These ware later rebuilt into three (IIRC) rakes of orient red InterCity coaches for an InterCity that would connect Wiesbaden Hbf with long distance traffic by creating a Wiesbaden - Frankfurt (- Mainz) shuttle. From 1995 to 1997 these coaches were still used for one train pair per day between Frankfurt Hbf and Düsseldorf Airport, which is the one service that is hauled by the BR 110. A picture of the coaches is of course provided below.



I don't think it will be worth modelling these coaches in-game, even though they are very interesting, as they only operate two services per day on the route, and never really operated more than that anywere else. I'd be totally okay with just a BR 110 with 3 IC coaches (the ones that will probably come with the BR 103 I mean) subbing in on these services.

 

kinda yes, kinda no. The 112 wasn't operating on this specific route a lot (not scheduled at least). The 112 with IR coaches is a good fit for the era, but only operated services into Koblenz Hbf, and in the direction of Trier Hbf, so not towards Mainz. Those IR services in 1997 were nearly exclusively handled by the BR 103.

It perhaps makes more sense to create an 'enhancement pack' for this route with a freight engine like the BR 141 or 151, the BR 363 (for good measure), freight wagons and IR coaches, while saving the BR 112 in orient red (with potential reuse of the IR coaches) to be part of a future '90s DLC, with layers from this route.

 

Which is fine, except that the IC coaches we currently have only date from 2015

 

Oh yeah, I meant with the IC coaches that we'll probably get with the 103 . I was just kind of assuming it came with some kind of InterCity coach.