Ny-trenton: Usa Content Is Still Severely Flawed

Exactly. I love this game. I know what they are capable off. I’m playing BML right now as we speak. my opinion the best DLC in the game. Just because we criticize a content doesn’t mean that dislike the game. On the contrary, we are here to try to help to make the game better. Some of us have been giving inputs of this route since it was first announced. We will continue to voice our concerns and give opinions. That’s why we have this thread. A way to give out opinions and help make the game better

 

Seconded. I’ve gone off to play Run 8 for a bit because I fancied a change and enjoy the more detailed industry flows you can get working. However I will be back on TSW to enjoy the classic UK diesels, even the Harlem Line and LGV which I bought in the recent sale.

 

I don't think it's exaggerated. As a consumer and seeing how other routes have been launched, everyone has the right to complain about having a good quality product.

The biggest problem I see with this route is the lack of explanation of why you can't include more layers like LIRR. Why doesn't DTG inform what prevents doing this on this route and on other routes, especially from Europe, this is done at each launch?

From the moment you agree to consume a product the way it is, they will never perfect or improve it, always launching with the same content as the others.

Another detail too, I really like TSW 3, so much so that I play it practically every day, and I have the right to know as a consumer and enthusiast why certain things happen in ads and releases...

 

I agree with you, it is no longer about the content, but about a number of unclear statements. That's why my advice was to wait a bit before jumping to conclusions

 

We’ve already seen the trains clipping through platforms, and we know the PIS is botched. We also know that things have been left out for ‘performance’ reasons. There are some very bright red flags already.

 

And here we go again, pointing fingers at stuff that has nothing to do with what is discussed. Why is this stil a thing on the forum? Gen 8 has nothing to do with it. What is on Gen8 is of no concern anymore for Gen 9. Gen 8 is a dumbed down version of what Gen 9 and PC's get. So what ever traffic that is too much for Gen8 to handle is removed from that version.

 

How do you know if that is an example from a recent period? Maybe the photo is very old? It's not WIP status for nothing

 

I am more than happy to be proved wrong, the only assumptions that can currently be made, are the actions of DTG’s past.

Also, DTG can make ‘WIP’ stretch quite a long way.

 

I hadn't seen the trains clipping through the platforms, I don't even recall seeing screenshots but I only watched parts of the stream. I had forgotten the incorrect PIS which I agree should be the correct version.

 

Where is the clipping?

 

We have confirmation from DTG about the timetable
289 total services
No LIRR trains
No freight
No new PIS
Reused scenery from tsw2020 NEC
No new NY skyline…….
3 US DLC content...one preview
These are not assumptions. These are facts and statements made by Matt

 

WIP given DTG's history doesn't mean much unfortunately.

 

No lirr trains and no freight doesn’t bother me. Freight is so little on the route and lirr is only in a very small portion of it.

Reusing the old content skyline etc I’ll not have an opinion on until I see the game. I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to them

the pis and especially the njt timetable bother me. If you’re going to simulate the prototype you can’t go halfway. That’s disappointing.

not having morrisville yard is equally disappointing for the same reason.

I would have loved to have seen some of the coastline and the Dover branch but I’m not too hung up. The coastline could end at Rahway (even though it’s not quite prototypical for the express services) and the Morris and Dover trains end in secaucus (not prototypical either for express trains)

If I read between the lines in dtg’s responses here it sounds like they came to the conclusion that the alp46 doesn’t belong on njcl services to/from long branch when it does.

I’m cautiously optimistic they will be added similarly to how they took feedback on save games and added a toggle.

 

I’m still mostly just concerned by the amount of NJT services. 82 does NOT seem like enough to represent anything more than the NEC line. Of course the lack of LIRR is really embarrassing for a DTG route in 2023, but it’s so much worse if the bare minimum (which I’d consider to be properly representing NJT) can’t even be achieved.

 

I agree with you. Just want to be clear and give the facts. the total number of NJT services is 121 services of which 39 are deadheads to and from Sunnyside yard. 82 total passenger services are the amount of services that don't see sunny side yard. with that said, this is a bad representation of the NJT on the NEC.

 

The idea that some people think that the complaints are just people that have rushed to conclusions is just somewhat laughable given what was already confirmed and the comments here have been based on that.

Penn station in LIRR and the first nec route is completely inaccurate to the real life station and I say that as a person who actually uses the station often when I take Amtrak, NJ Transit or the LIRR and the fact that it was basically confirmed (not an assumption) that it will basically have minor changes obviously won't spark much confidence at all given how inaccurate the station looked anyways

The non existent NY skyline from sunnyside yard and the scenery around that area will remain unchanged. That's not an assumption. That is a fact. Heck most of the scenery from the TSW 2020 version of nec has been reused and considering how bad the scenery was on that route was, the reaction isn't surprising. It's ridiculous that the TSC version of sunnyside yard has a better looking skyline and scenery around sunnyside yard but "the future of train simulation" can't.

Not including morrisville yard is very disappointing considering that is where NJT trains that terminate at Trenton are stored. It's only 1-2 miles from Trenton. It's like when they didn't include SoHo depot in BCC. It makes no sense.

As for the LIRR, the issue that has been said here previously is that other routes do have trains that are AI only that you see at one station. Dresden-Cheminz has a ICE 3 (which you wouldn't even see at Dresden HBF. ICE T's run to Dresden HBF), a 146 with dostos at Dresden HBF and it also has the re50 services at Dresden as well even though they don't even run on Dresden-Cheminz. BML has non playable southeastern services at Victoria. Kassel-Wurzburg has non playable services at Kassel, Fulda and Wurzburg HBF and hell, Bremen Oldenburg has non playable services that you only see at one to two stations. Heck, the 612 doesn't even run on that line in reality but that didn't stop DTG fron adding that train to the route. So not adding the Bombardier M7 EMU or the BUDD M3 EMU from LIRR at penn station just does not make sense when DTG adds non playable ai services that you would only see at one station on other routes without question. That particular criticism is valid.

There is still no excuse to be using inaccurate British PIS when there is reference for NJ Transit pis available. That has to stop. DTG can't create a thread for pis reference only to then just use inaccurate pis again and again. Especially when that pis system for lirr was made incorrectly because of self imposed tine constraints (being rushed). How does it make sense that a one off SNCF route can have authentic PIS but U.S passenger routes can't have authentic pis despite refrence?

When there are those that say that U.S passenger content is always half baked, it's not difficult to see why. Whether it is an inaccurate pis system that is designed the way it is due to it being rushed to meet a deadline, broken propulsion sounds on the LIRR M7 which two years later has still not been fixed, a broken signaling system on boston sprinter which took two years to fix and required a member of the community to essentially fix, the inability to select cab car services with the ctx bi level cab car on peninsula corridor which again, has not been fixed, red light issues, low to non existent track joint/screeching sounds when going through curves, inaccurate and missing landmarks on the Harlem line which as been an issue for nearly a year along with the route being way too short amongst other issues in dtg's track record of this content is why there have been some that always felt that U.S passenger content is always half baked. I think this thread has made the issues some have had with U.S passenger content more well known and can be no longer swept under the rug anymore as it always has been in the past.

I do hope DTG stop cutting corners when it comes to U.S passenger content and actually take feedback more seriously and stop rushing these products out just to make a quick buck. DTG have the talent, but sometimes I feel they care more about pleasing shareholders than their actual customers.

TSW 3 wants players to "Master the machine" yet they can't master U.S Passenger content. Maybe they will once they actually listen to feedback.

 

I dont think it isnt just US passenger content, I can easily point out weird or odd decisions with recent US freight routes as well (Sherman Hill and Cajon Pass)

 

What's wrong with Cajon?

 

Wow I can't believe they still havent reply even though is Monday, look like the team, and Matt are just ignoring our request.

 

Scenery wise, a few landmarks and assets that are missing from Cajon Pass, not to mention the ground textures and the infamous ATSF F7.

But it's pretty clear that not only US Passengers to be cutting corners, but the US content in general, whether if it's freight or passenger. No matter how much feedback we're giving them regardless.

 

Horrible trackside scenery? Holes in the terrain right near the tracks? Tracks looking like goofy Kato Unitrack model train tracks? Lit-up bushes on the hillsides when they are supposed to be in shade? A red bonnet F7 pulling modern freight consist alongside other modern BNSF equipment? Horrible framerate in the yards? Road traffic spawning in and out right in front of you?

 

This is true. My preference is more towards passenger routes (I don't have cajon pass installed for instance) although I perhaps should've mentioned freight routes and the issues some have said about them as well

 

Agree 100%. Thank you for providing your expertise and passion into the game. The community really appreciates it

 

On top of what everyone else said, the SD40-2 has the wrong number range, Union Pacific services are AI only on the Palmdale Cutoff, and no traffic from the Palmdale Cutoff to Barstow like IRL.

The scenerio planner last I checked was still mess up, as you can only route trains thru track 3 plus you can't use the Amtrak stations in it either.

 

Exactly didn't they jus add freight services to the BML....and yet they can't add LIRR ai layers in and out of PENN???like one of thr members mentioned, DTG continues to show lack of respect for the US content especially passenger US content. Smfh but BML(which yes I enjoyed) has many services and layers like crazy. And i still say they should've added extra part for the NCJL to at least South Amboy as a start to add more NJ services in the game....Didn't the German content go through that I think Dresden-Rhea when they added one of the branches in the game after already launched??

 

Oh yea I did see the issues on the Sherman Hill and Cajon Pass.

 

In this thread I have already aired my grievances, and agree with quite a few of the others. So, hopefully it will come off as credible if I try to defend Matt and JD on not really saying anything today.

After all, what can they really say that would be helpful? JD tried to respond when he noted that LIRR traffic would be at NYP only. Of course that makes no difference, for myriad reasons as discussed. Unfortunately, whatever the actual discrete reason for leaving off the LIRR was, it will not placate anybody. Perhaps they ran out of time on a self-imposed deadline. Maybe it wouldn't work on Gen 8 and they didn't want any differences between platforms, for marketing purposes (everybody gets the same thing!) Perhaps they did not want to invest in the research, for profit reasons. Maybe they just forgot!

Well, JD is probably not allowed to say any of that, and even if we knew the underlying reason it would do no good. So, he is stuck saying nonsense, which also doesn't help. I think the bigger problem is that there is a lack of consistency between this new route and the most previous examples of both USA passenger (NEC-BP and HAR) and what I might refer to as flagship UK routes (LBN and SEHS ext).

In this context, when Matt questions whether or not an ALP46 on the NJCL is acceptable to the community, although he is trying to be helpful, it also raises more issues because it does speak to a discrepancy. Apparently we can have unusual diversions and such on LBN, and a meticulously researched freight timetable on SEHS, but need to request these things on other routes, and then justify the request. And as it turns out, the ALP46 might in reality actually be on some of those NJCL services anyway, which both I and apparently DTG didn't know, although only one of us makes train games.

I would be silent too, because there is nothing else to say. It may come to pass that they are working on a patch to address a few of the players' concerns, and why say anything about that until you are sure? So, I wouldn't say that Matt and JD are ignoring anybody, in fact I believe they are doing the best they can. There are a lot of issues at play here and perhaps a breather is good for everybody.

 

Pointless? I would guess you are new here, but you are a member since almost the start. Outrage like this previously got us Preserved Collection, Meißen Branch, SEHS improvements, and other stuff. While it is unlikely something will happen here, being silent about it is giving up in advance. Unlikely, they will fix it now, but hopefully, they got once again a better idea about the limits of cutting corners.

 

I have to agree. As much as I love it whenever they take the time to response here on the forums, there really is not much they could say here, is there? I mean unless they would announce that they managed to layer in extra timetable services (more NJT, LIRR and static freight AI) before release, or that they are delaying the release to do so, what else could they say? Sorry? We don't care? The typical "we know we could do better" line?

So it makes sense they are not really talkative. I do wonder how the preview stream on thursday will go though..

 

the BIGGEST gripe I have with US freight. I just can't get immersed in the environment with those plastic-looking track pieces.

 

I could see a scenario where they mention "we've heard your concerns on the forum and will look into adding more services on the route in the future" or something along those lines during the preview stream. Dangling the carrot of hope. Sorry, not falling for that trick again.

 

Exactly right. At this point, on this thread, I don't see how saying anything like that would be helpful.

 

Yeah, most likely good case scenario would be if they said they are looking to improve the timetable and/or are planning new loco add-ons that would do so, like the NJT Arrow III or something. Of course, if I didn't like the route in it's current state (that will depend on the preview stream) then this would not make me buy it right now either, but at least I could accept it and wait for it to get busier and buy it then when it's worth it. But currently there is not enough trust to buy it based on promises.

 

We've heard that statement too many times but the DTG flywheel keeps spinning. I frankly don't think that would be helpful at this point unless it was a 100% guarantee but even then we all know what happened to things like the editor, multiplayer and other stuff.

 

This is a very thoughtful post and neatly illustrates why in a lot of circumstances we won't get a response on some topics.

My view is that even if things look disappointing, we should try and be constructive rather than outright offensive or abusive. It's very apparent to me at least that the team at DTG does actually work incredibly hard for the most part, particularly Matt for whom I don't think it would be inaccurate to call TSW his life's work in a lot of ways.

Imagine working all the hours God sends to make the best product you can in the time available to you and then logging onto the forums on a Friday evening (in your own time to respond to the community) to people calling you lazy cash grabbers etc. Think about what would motivate you if you were in a developer or producer chair at DTG? It's probably not being slagged off.

TSW is a niche and highly complex product sold at a pretty commercial (rather than hobbyist) price point, and I think that although players have the right to express themselves when they are disappointed (as I am sometimes - the sorry state of Spirit of Steam is a particular point of woe for me) we should strive to stay constructive rather than abusive.

I'm probably shouting into the wind at this point (I can generally tell when a thread has gone too far as it's full of people responding to invisible quotes from the ignore list) but there it is.

 

Rather than customers buying into the dangling carrot of hope, the tables should be turned and customers' money should be dangled on the fishing line for DTG to earn once they deliver a solid product at launch. Not maybe/perhaps/one day, 6 months to never down the line.

 

Even if the staff of DTG were to say anything like they would be looking into adding more services or added static stock to the route, as is the normal way it would seem on this forum that even if they got what they wanted you're going to get the angry mob with their sharpened pitchforks making this the hill they want to die on claiming it's to little to late, it seems to be a cycle becoming more and more common...........

 

THIS!! YES!

No matter the emotions that certain issues with the game cause, it would really be so much more productive if people could engage with DTG in a civilized and compassionate manner. It is much harder to ignore a well-reasoned and respectful request than it is to ignore ranting and raving.

 

If only they could add these things before release and release routes that aren't riddled with so many glaring issues. Oh wait.....

 

I would 100% agree with you if this was somebody's hobby in their spare time building a game like this. But this is a business and has had a long history of broken promises. Hence some of the abuse is warranted as it's flowing in both directions.

There's also a long history of constructive criticisms over the years falling on deaf ears. Not all, because that would be a false statement. All people are asking for is for a certain level of standards across the board. Which should not be difficult if things were properly organized. i.e. all routes should include features X, Y, Z. At least start with that as a base.

And since this is a niche game, what harm would there be in announcing work being done on a route a few months prior to release rather than a few days / weeks? Solicit some feedback, create discussion, gather route information from locals, etc. Have a dialog on what is and isn't possible to put in at launch due to limitations. Yes this is not a traditional way of game development, but this isn't exactly a large audience AAA title either. It's self published and DTG could choose to be different. And don't get me wrong. You don't want to announce "hey next year we want to build X route". You want to have a firm footing that something is happening before going through this process to avoid disappointments. The drawback is yes it would prolong route development (possibly), but you end up with better quality and something people will want to buy. However if the name of the game these days is quantity over quality then all of the above is a worthless opinion.

 

EXACTLY!!!!I 100% agree.... They don't do a good job on US passenger content, and even issues on US freight content.....It didn't stop them of adding more than 1,400 PLAYBLE SERVICES on the Brighton Main Line, adding numerous ai layers on that same route, including an extra service to Reigate....And even adding layers in and out of Hamburg on the Hamburg-Leubeck dlc, which is BUSY if u spawn on foot. Southerneastern High Speed has layers in and out of Ashford, heck even a ICE train parked at St Pancreas. Bottom line, is US content doesn't get its fair share like German and UK content....DTG put in HARD WORK to add many layers and busy type timetables to the UK and German content...I don't want to hear excuses of the same energy put into the US content....ESPECIALLY the upcoming NY-Trenton dlc! We have rights to express our frustrations or so because it's an ongoing pattern.....Oh yes and don't get me started on the PIS screen lol!!!

 

Abuse is never warranted, you might think you are abusing an organisation but these are human beings you are talking to, not some faceless conglomerate. I can also guarantee that abuse is the worst way to get what you want, people generally become more stubborn not acquiesce to your demands.

I can't see where the abuse is flowing from any of DTG's staff!

 

Absolutely I agree that no one should be abusing DTG’s staff - and if you get to the point where you think you should be abusing a company that is a providing a private non mandatory service, then you should just cut ties with said company and move on.

Where I disagree is saying that DTG isn’t ‘abusing’ its customer base (depending on what you want to include in the definition of abuse - it’s a strong word afterall). If on one hand saying that abusing DTG as a company is abusing it staff, then that same logic works the other way around.

DTG have a long history of lying to its customers, failing to deliver on promises, misleading customers into purchases & generally taking advantage of rail fans.

I’m still quite appalled at the way DTG hyped up their bundling for the latest content, they made a song and dance about it both on their stream & on these forums, 2 places that are overwhelmingly going to be an existing userbase, there is no way that DTG did not have the information regarding the bundles and they still went about them the way that they did.

It seems dramatic I agree, and I tend to stay away from these, more extreme topics of what the big nasty corporation does to its userbase, but I did want to lend a more grounded opinion on what some rightfully upset US fans might be feeling - look at the history of US content in TSW, it’s hard to deny there is some bias going on with DE/UK content. Whilst this can be partly attributed to access to the IRL hardware, there’s no defence for sloppy route, timetabling & use of existing content.

 

Each DLC, whether it's German or US, should be created with equal thought, detail and effort. I am confident that we'll see some patches at some point to rectify some of the issues with the upcoming route

 

I’d be happy with just a timetable improvement post-release, and to give us their word that they’ll put more effort into the PIS screens for the next USA passenger DLC, whenever that comes.

 

I think DTG are already planning a timetable update, Matt was fairly responsive to the notion last week. I do think there is an issue somewhere but DTG do see that the lack of LIRR & NJT traffic is an issue.

As for the PIS, I don’t think DTG should get a pass on that, they’ve had more than long enough to solve the issue, they have an entire thread of reference available, which they asked for - I also don’t believe for a second that the beta team hasn’t given them enough to at least come up with something closer to reality than Capslock British PIS.

I’m not American, I haven’t travelled on American railways but I would just love a standout US passenger route, something like BML, SEHS, Dresden, Bremen etc. Not these half cooked routes like the MNRR or LIRR which doesn’t give you anywhere near the sense of a huge, bright, bustling city full of commuters.

Boston was a good start, and I love the approach you get on the way into the city, the skyline looks awesome, even better in an exterior camera with the ACS-64 against the backdrop of Boston. It’s truly one of the few routes where the scene does give you the sense of arriving in a large city.

To an outsider, Amtrak is a big name, it’s where the mind goes when you imagine a US passenger train, and I love that they’ve captured that in the timetable for the New Route, but I can only imagine how much of an experience I’m missing out on with that same woeful NYC skyline, the pretty bland looking NY Penn station, none of the distinctive silver clad LIRR commuter traffic, and then the lack of NJT services too - it’s a brand new operator with a brand new trainset, give us plenty of stuff to do with it!

 

If they're already planning a timetable update, why not hold back this release until it is complete? Or release it as NY - Trenton Early Access.

 

It's DTG what do you expect.

 

Ny Penn station is even more bland looking in real life.

 

So the only stream that we are receiving for the new NEC New York-Trenton route is called the US super bundle stream set for this Thursday for a release the following Tuesday..
So on this stream they are going to show the Acela, new Boston lighting,The new NEC Trenton route, the ALP-46, the Multilevel coaches, Amtrak Amfleet cab car metroliner,Union Pacific heritage collection (6 locos),upgraded Sherman hill. So we have 3 routes, 4 new locos, 6 heritage freight skins all shown in one stream? Can someone please let me know if something like this has ever happened before? I’m lost for words. We have nothing to worry about…….
Maybe I’m overthinking it.