Just wondering how you guys feel about DTG banning all reference to trains, liveries and scenarios regarding Russia. Figured this may be allowed as a political thread since any discussion elsewhere is crushed immediately. I feel it's unfair to demonize any group of people by ethnicity, especially for the actions of a few government leaders, especially ones that don't have much say in elections. Russia has one of the largest most diverse groups of peoples in the world. Neither the Russians or Ukrainians should be further victimized by being demonized by tech companies. I witnessed firsthand the insanity that happened after 911, the bullying, the ostracizing of people that had disagreements or expected reasonable debate. Are we going to go down the same road again and learn nothing? It looks like the polls have been removed but what is your opinion on this? Please, let's all keep it civil and agree that we all have the right to an opinion. Thank you.
Unless those liveries are promoting things DTG don't want to promote I see no reason for trains and train related posts no matter where they are, I guess the issue here is that some people just can't help but put forth their opinions on matters which are NOT train related on a forum supposedly about a train game
Its ridiculous to ban any mention of Russia. It is a very complex situation and this narrative that Ukraine are the good guys and all Russians are the baddies that the media is trying to peddle is just not acceptable. Of course every corporation will jump on the bandwagon whilst its fashionable, the same with LGBT, Black Lives Matter etc. Whether they are good causes or not, it’s all pretty meaningless when it comes from a corporation or large public figure as you know its not genuine. Most recent example I can think of is Gary Lineker criticising the government for harsh policies on migrants. Whether he’s wrong or right he's just recieved a massive pay check from the Quatar government for being part of the World Cup where thousands of migrants died building the facilities and many reportedly working basically as slaves. It makes his stance meaningless.
Maybe dtg should ban any mention of great Britain and usa, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Japan, China etc. When it comes to invasions, no one's hands are clean.
Well, whilst the thread is still open, I will post my thoughts. For starters, nobody is being demonized on the basis of ethnicity. We are talking about train liveries and scenarios here, it applies to anyone wanting to share a Russian livery or scenario in CC, not just Russians. Secondly, this isn't really a free speech debate. You can create your own Russian scenarios and liveries, or download via another route to the CC if you're on PC. DTG are not monitoring or restricting what people are actually playing. What they have done is ban sharing explicitly Russian content in a content sharing service they host, they're simply treating Russian content the same way they treat anything deemed 'controversial' or illegal. Whichever way you look at it, Russia is currently a controversial topic in the West, DTG are a Western company, based in a country that is an official ally of Ukraine, and a pretty strong one at that. Ignoring this context and thinking 'neutrality' is a non-political stance in this situation is absurd. Thirdly, the worst fallout of DTG's decision is that some players who like Russian content but not enough to create it themselves, can't easily access it via CC, that's literally as bad as it gets. It's not that big a deal, it's no worse to wanting something in CC and nobody else having created it, or not being able to find it with the wonky search system. The stakes are virtually zero. Finally, one of the main reasons war is bad is because it causes a fallout far beyond the frontline, it inevitably changes the way decisions are made and impacts things you wouldn't otherwise have thought about. If you're looking for the root-cause of all these things that affect you, then look no further than whichever state just decided to invade its democratic neighbor, attack civilian infrastructure and residential areas, and kill thousands of civilians in the process. (And sure, feel free to offer up every example of every other country that has done the same thing in history, the point is this is happening now, not 10 or 50 years ago).
A blanket ban on all trains Russian feels like an overreaction to me, but given the public's tendency to overreact to real or imagined provocations, I guess I can see the reasons from a business standpoint. I'm glad that you at least created your own thread, because I also think that repeatedly ignoring warnings and posting off topic in someone else's thread, risking it getting locked through no fault of theirs, is very bad form.
Not the only game though. I play football manager a fair bit too, they've removed the Russian leagues from it I believe
Removing any trace of a whole country is well over the top IMO. Certainly any Russian political simulator etc or glorification of Putin is fair to be removed e.g. a livery with Z on it. But censoring the existence of the country and its arts/atheletes etc is nuts. Tennis players should be able to play at Wimbledon and so on and we should be able to make genuine Russian liveries etc.
Unfortunately "the man" tends to use sporting achievement as a PR stunt in that country, so I would disagree on this. No the tennis player's fault, but still not something I believe should be allowed to be used as a tool.
Another thread similar to this was locked even though it was civil. Everyone was giving their opinion on allowing Russian liveries onto the CC but hey they decided to lock the thread
Should symphony orchestras refuse to play Tchaikovsky? Should museums lock away their Faberge eggs, and libraries take Tolstoy and Dostoevsky off the shelves? When is enough enough? I suppose if DTG were to be consistent, they should also cancel the BR 232 "Ludmilla", which was built in the USSR. Let's not forget that some of the primary victims of Putin's war are ordinary Russian citizens, who have seen their economy flushed down the toilet, their young men dragged away to fight (often with inadequate training or kit), and they can't even root for their athletes in international competition to take their minds off how wretched Vlad the Invader has made their lives.
Unfortunately the people who have the ability to affect Russian's lives directly are mainly Russians. Vlad the Invader (as you call them) obviously has a lot of supporters willing to use the populace to their own ends as well as affecting the people of Ukraine. I'm sure they're getting some benefit from it somehow
Ah smashing, love to log back into this forum after a few months to find insane conspiracy theories about my friends and neighbours. Every day I and half the people I know start the day by checking the news. We look to see which places were bombed, if it's one we have a link to, we then have to decide whether to reach out or wait for the news of what's happened to our people there. I've spent the past year helping people who were perfectly content living in Russian speaking Ukraine to rebuild their lives without their men. Learning a new language, finding a school for their kids, finding anything to spend their days. You in Britain cannot possibly know what that's like - you live in one of the most comfortable nations on earth. You can't know what any of this is like. You are safe, knowing that you will never have to see who's been murdered by your neighbours last night. Yet somehow you're content to sit spreading misinformation about us. It's not at all complex - the Russian government want to eradicate Ukraine as an idea. If you don't realise that, shut up and let others talk, because all you're doing here is providing covering fire for a genocide. 80 years ago you'd have been saying 'Well, this narrative that Poland are the good guys and the Wehrmacht are all baddies is unacceptable'. Shame on you, and honestly, if this gets me a ban? So be it. There are bigger things in the world than a forum account, and I'm not going to sit watching my friends being slandered by the British while under near daily bombardment. I couldn't care less if Dovetail ban Russian content - I do wish they'd ban genocide fans from the forums though.
Quite agree. I have met a few Russians in my time and found them to be decent friendly folk (most of whom can drink me under the table as well, let us not deny it ). We shouldn’t vilify all things Russia because of the actions of one madman and his cronies. Let us hope and pray that peace comes to Ukraine very soon.
I made a livery, it was a class 09 shunter, and it was russian-inspired. It is still taken down. You know dovetail, for having a lot of German routes, something did happen in world war two. See, it's stupid. It's only alienating the people who live in Russia as normal citizens, banning the mention of an entire nationality. I don't get it, how many people actually agree banning mentions of russia is actually good other than corporate?
No, I went to a Tchaikovsky concert just 2 days ago. Surprisingly, I have not been turned into an anti-ukraine pro-russia james bond villain.
I don’t think their should be a general ban on anything of non political origin of the Russian Federation or it’s predecessor states their is probably a general issue of DTG not having Russian train company licenses, theirs nothing really that can be done about that, so I would expect that they need to be legally removed. Taken flags for an example, as long as theirs no obvious political promotion or hateful intent involved with them, then just as any country (which all have different and similar horrid laws, actions and activities whether recent or past) should be permitted on CC. Basically I think if state flags aren’t banned generally, then they should be allowed in Liveries on CC.
It's impossible, and silly, to ban reference to a country - especially the world's largest and one of the most powerful and well-known. Whilst we're at it, we could throw up bans for reference to; • Uganda (LGBT Ban) • China (Many a reason) • The US (Abortion Bans, LGBT bans at state level) • Belarus (Russia's reasons apply) And so forth. If it's someone recreating the 'Z' logo for the war, or putting pro-war and/or Putinist propaganda, then that's a fair shout for a ban. That's my 2 cents.
Federal (Nation as a Whole) level also not to mention it was the British Empire/United Kingdom what inspired the Actions of late 1930’s - Mid 1940’s Germany… but theirs U.K. content in the Game and German
no, I’ve seen sources that the atrocities of a similar nature committed, by the British empire against Africa, showed/inspired the workings of what can happen to the “1930’s German Government” like wise with the recent laws regarding schools in Florida and Russian Propaganda Laws were both inspired by Tory Era 1986 Laws, its also the reasons for recent movements similar to those in Uganda. history always repeats, nothing is rarely new especially when politics is their, it’s always ironic when a country thinks it’s the first or when people think a country stands out for stuff like that.
It’s more the consequences of the treaty of Versailles and an economical and political unstable Weimar Republic that led to what happened later ( not fully but it’s a non negligible cause )
Yes that was one the primary reasons for the rise of the “1930’s German party”, especially the people’s motivations to support the “party” again used also by far right party’s today with talks of money and immigration Edit: I don’t want to say anything more but theirs problems with economy in the UK at the moment with the current party thinking people have a focus on Immigration instead… not suggesting things will happen more but it’s the same rhetoric that gets used to win voters whilst not dealing with proper more concerning issues
Yeah but like, that's just not a fair comparison at all, especially considering that Germany went through the denazification process and everything. Nope. The Rhetoric in Germany re. immigrants was actually very limited - nobody wanted to go to Germany due to the economic issues. The main drum beating in that sense was purging "undesirables" from society, which mainly got the idiots, those who fell for propaganda, and the far right mob to back AH in elections. There are a few factors in the NP rise to power; • Propaganda & "purity" rhetoric • Promises of Economic Prosperity (not far off coming true, tbf) •Tear up the Treaty of Versailles •Also, fix everything bad it caused •And so forth. But anyway, back on topic, eh?
1. the Ukraine war started over a year ago not today, so by the same logic it doesn’t matter… Edit: the only thing a state can do to prevent its history is not perform its action in the first place, like people they live with the past, it is neither fair to forget like it didn’t happen which should be given far more priority over supposed “state feelings” 2. likewise with the above, “Presidential Memorandum on Military Service by Transgender Individuals” (effective 2017-2021) (Federal action that for 50 states and territories to abide by) past actions are still actions by the state and its successor states. Wiping the name doesn’t wipe the action, it’s all independent of a person’s acknowledgement of how long of a length of time has passed, otherwise by the same logic only things that happen in Ukraine right now are having any effect on how to approach Russia… 3. I Wasn’t referring to any immigration policies of the “1930s German Government” but yes back on topic.
TBH the Russia/Ukraine situation has faded into the background for most people and seems to be stalemated anyway. As regards the train sim scene, some of the best stuff in Trainz is made by the Russian and Ukrainian communities and at this point I wouldn't hesitate to build a route (fictional or based on reality) that was based on either and/or used those assets. Life goes on...
keeping on topic, I agree, I kinda figured it would just end up in a sort of stalemate if Russia never managed to get far, it always seems far to unrealistic for Ukraine to marching on Moscow type thing. I kinda guessed if they pushed Russia back it would be to the borders then dig in, maybe Crimean border or the other side of crimea on that front, don’t know if they would want to provoke that outcome.
I have even toyed with the idea of building a Norwegian or Swedish route in Trainz, but doing it Russian style due to the lack of Scandinavian assets, that would really bring the pains on! There are also several quite hellfire branch lines in Karelia (Alakurtti, Nikel and Kovdor) which would go great in a sim. The Alakkurti line also used to continue on through to Finland and join their network coming down into Kemijarvi through Salla.
I never said it should be forgotten - what a mad thing to suggest, and a horrible attempt at twisting my words. There was a context (banning their appearance in TS/TSW), and you blatantly ignored that when looking at my statement. Not a full ban, which was what I referred to. You mentioned the current right wing immigrant rhetoric, in the same point as you mentioned NP Germany.
1. Never twisted any words, I can only go with how another replies, I never said you wanted to forget or have any thought on what happened in Germany during that time, it was you who suggested it’s unfair to still hold 2023 Germany to something from 1930/1940, states don’t have feelings they are not capable of such things. America still gets slammed for Slavery, and rightfully so, like Germany it made a choice, it holds it until the last person forgets or doesn’t care. The only thing Germany or any other nation doesn’t hold blame for is something it played no part in, no matter how many days and nights it’s been since, and that was my whole point back on Russia, how long is it until it ain’t an issue, do we care to not have Russian content this year ? How about next and so on. Furthermore it was a point on what we actually hold Russia to account for, is it military force of taken lands ? China hasn’t invaded Xinjiang so is that why we don’t hold it to the same degree? These were the bigger questions I was asking in relation to the thread. I would never suggest any thoughts of someone who I don’t know on a particular topic. Leading back again to people who don’t blame modern Germany after approximately 93 years, is that the point we forgive “Modern Russia” sometime after 2100 ? Again not saying what your thoughts are on it, it’s just a rhetorical question. 2. I don’t understand, you’re referencing to a full ban ? But any sort of ban is a ban, schools in Florida effect only certain grades yet they are still a ban, just apparently a lucky set of exceptions meant more aren’t effected 3. I think your mis quoting me on that, I wouldn’t talk on Emigration or Immigration on 1930’s Germany, I talked about modern U.K. with immigration being dragged as a fake concern for general population of U.K, and its similarities to anti Jewish sentiment/rhetoric of 1930’s Germany. That also occur in other places like why would New York care of border issues in Texas or why would someone in Northern England give a care about boats on Dover Beaches, like the current U.K. government seems to think everyone has it as a main priority but let’s keep this topic for real world politicians to mess with rather than us citizens who can’t change it even if we wanted and get back to the original thread topic for others thoughts
