Loco Bundle 2 - Bnsf Sd70ace Feedback - Another Flawed Us Dlc

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by TripleJ814, Mar 20, 2023.

  1. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    Since this thread has replies disabled New Content - Loco Add-on Bundle 2 - Coming Tuesday 21st! | Dovetail Games Forums I had to make this thread.

    An okay offering for the US side of things this time around, when you consider the last two abominations we had (CSX SD40, ATSF F7)... BUT

    1) Why are the Truck Trailers being reused from Horseshoe Curve? They're European, not American. Not realistic.
    upload_2023-3-20_12-11-26.png

    2) Why is the BNSF SD70ACe a thundercab variant when in reality thundercabs are NOT allowed to lead BNSF lead trains?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  2. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    They are part of the route, not the loco DLC. But shouldn't be in the route.
    Good question. Once again, lack of attention to detail
     
  3. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    No they aren't
    upload_2023-3-20_12-24-26.png
    CJP doesn't have a 89ft flat car, the roadmap article said that the BNSF SD70ACe comes with the TOFC and Centerbeams with it.
    The 89ft flatcar is the exact same one from Horseshoe Curve, and that TruckTrailer Cargo Asset is the same one as the Horseshoe Curve one. So yeah they reused the European trailer.
     
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  4. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    After i read & viewing few screenshots from the latest Loco Bundle 2 article. I notice that the portrayed units are the 93XX series in BNSF SD70ACe rosters. Which i believe was the older units from back when SD70ACe were first introduced. And sure enough after checking few real photograph of the some portrayed units in the article, they do have standard non isolated cab.

    The first screenshots from this month article showed 85XX series of BNSF SD70ACe rosters that in real life have that isolated cab, but i think this is last minutes lazy effort from DTG to do not make an isolated cab, instead they changed the road number series to the older SD70ACe in BNSF rosters.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2023
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  5. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Any one of us could have told them that this cab is not allowed to lead a BNSF consist.
    Well, let's hope they've modeled all the prime mover noise and the cab rattle. Then it will be realistic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2023
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  6. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    upload_2023-3-20_12-50-7.png
    I understand the Truck Trailers, since they can't currently substitute due to the 89ft flatcar being 1 unit, and the MaxiStack intermodal cars being 3 units currently, you can't sub a 1 car unit into a 3 car unit.

    But why the centerbeams? Those could easily substitute into manifest trains with some minor changes to the timetable formations.
    In fact, DTG had to modify the current timetable formations anyways so that the BNSF SD70ACe could sub in, as the current ES44C4 formations have substitution set to false. Substituting the centerbeams would've been an easy task.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Substitution breaks cargo loads, if we enable it, all your trains become unloaded. Fixing the cargo loads issue is non trivial because of how that system was built and needs a rethink. That's why wagon substitution isn't enabled.
     
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  8. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    I forgot that little detail, which is odd because I know it all too well from Oakville :). That is actually a good reason.

    Anything you could possibly share about the European TruckTrailers or the Thundercab variant being used? There's someone in the TSC Discord that would have references to proper 53ft American trailers, I'm sure they'd be willing to help with that.

    Thanks Matt
     
  9. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Why does it still work on Oakville?
     
  10. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    We felt that since you weren't going that far and its largely a flat route - the weights of the train changing were less of an impact vs having more variety in the consist, vs up and down hill runs with heavy trains being the key attraction on the "pass" routes.

    Euro Truck Trailers - I'm not sure on that one, I think we tried to find a US trailer in the game but there wasn't one? I wasn't directly involved in the project. We just used the flat car from Horseshoe Curve and put the trailers we had in the end - but if there's a trailer that is more recommended from the game i'm open to looking at a swap.

    Matt.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Cajon Pass is full of US semitrailers as static scenery assets.
     
  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Amen. And sooner rather than later.

    There is little that breaks immersion for me faster than American freight trains with all identical cars- the very opposite of real life.

    And when did this become an issue? I can clearly remember we used to have US freight car substitution (though never on German routes). I have a disc drive full of freight liveries which are all now useless, but used to liven up Sand Patch quite a bit.
     
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  13. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I'll go have a lookee later when back in the office :)
     
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  14. Anna_AWVR

    Anna_AWVR Active Member

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    Actual US intermodal employee here! I deal with 53ft containers and truck trailers on a daily basis. I've got plenty of reference pics you can use. While you might not have licenses for any of the carriers, I can easily suggest alternative names and logos to make stuff seem mostly legit.

    The thing with the HSC flatcars is they have a unique design that lets you put both a 53ft trailer and a 28ft "Pup" trailer (or three 28ft trailers) on there at the same time. The 89ft flatcars in real life have three hitches (what the trailer hooks into) on them. One on each end and one in the middle that's offset. This allows for a great deal of combinations if you were to do a few separate schemes.

    Trailers come in two flavors on TOFC, dry-van and reefer. If you're only planning on doing one model or two I would recommend the dry van. Reefers have a variety of different refrigeration units for each company.

    I SHOULD also mention that containers on chassis (what Skyhook did) are also a thing on intermodal, just a little less common. Thought you'd need a bit higher quality chassis to pull that off. No offense, but the one in CJP is just not good. I can also get reference pics for those as well.

    If you're interested, send me a message. Tell me what you're looking for and I'll do what I can to get you the goods.

    Below is a few images of the kind of stuff I'm able to get (my primary device is damaged so most present-moment pictures would be with a bit of a fish-eye lens until I can get a newer device). Note: These are majorly scaled down to not flood the thread.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Also I'm down to help improve the intermodal containers. At the very least even if you're going unbranded, they should have a reporting mark. A perfect one would be DTGU. Easy to apply and adds more character to the formations.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2023
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  15. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Well-Known Member

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    With substitution set to false, I wonder if this is why Creators Club liveries don't show up randomly on the ES44C4? Perhaps this will now change. I am also wondering if such liveries will appear for the SD70. I have not been able to get an answer for this. I am also interested in seeing in the CJP update enables liveries for freight wagons as well, although this I rather doubt.
     
  16. Anna_AWVR

    Anna_AWVR Active Member

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    I could try to take a look. The RailVehicleDefinition for the ES44C4 has bIsSubstitutableUnit set to true but I think Commonness Weighing in formations might help influence whether or not random CC liveries show up on AI or static stock.
     
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  17. griggs

    griggs Member

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    Found a noticeable error on the modeling around the headlight and door. The cut-out for the nose headlight is slightly smaller than it should be in real life. It should be longer and closer towards the top of the nose. It also should be slightly offset to the left as the door is too wide to have it centered on the nose. Here is an image of what it looks like compared to the game model.
    upload_2023-3-20_14-14-17.png upload_2023-3-20_14-15-11.png
     
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  18. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Seriously, the things we choose to care about...
    Compare this issue against scenarios that can't be completed, achievements that do not unlock, random derailments, AI SPADs, and so on.
     
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  19. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    There’s no mention in the article of what services and scenarios there are so I’m assuming it is just scenarios and loco substitution. There’s plenty of room in the timetable for new services with the new rolling stock if the stock can’t substitute within the consists that already exist.

    Some kind of info in the article would have been nice but maybe there isn’t anything to boast about like in the UK pack. That had a comprehensive breakdown of exactly what players can expect to get when they buy but with this it is just a mystery.
     
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  20. griggs

    griggs Member

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    I'm so sorry for providing feedback for an upcoming release on a thread dedicated to providing feedback for an upcoming release.
     
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  21. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    Not for nothing, but DTG could take a page from Microsoft's playbook and sell "Future DLC". Just put it in the store without any details, people will definitely buy it if you give 10% off for preorder, and release something when it's ready. You know, locos, liveries, scenarios, etc.

    I remember when I purchased one of the Forza Horizon releases, I could buy a Season Pass that gave me two future DLCs. If I remember correctly, I haven't even downloaded the second one, because, by the time they released it, I was already bored of that particular Horizon version.
     
  22. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    How is that relevant?
     
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  23. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    The thought occurred to me while I was reading this in the announcement:
    One of the things is relevant in this thread, as it concerns CJP, and was quoted by someone above.

    This add-on is unfinished, and contains a promise of things to come in a future patch, which begs the question: why release it before it is completed? If the bean counters need more content released before the end of fiscal year, then why not release something completely unknown, like the Horizon "future DLCs":
    New German route, cool trains, zero bugs!
    30 quid
    (Content will be available for download at some point in the future)
     
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  24. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    In regards to the trailers:

    1. It is weird to have an intermodal container trailer on a flatcar. Those trailers are just a chassis where the container is removable. If they were going to be moved by train I would imagine the container itself would be removed and added onto a proper rail car vs the entire trailer/chassis. I could be wrong but typically what you see is dryvan trailers (see pic below).

    863448BD-3979-4420-9E38-93EC722785A9.jpeg

    2. The metal protection bars that run the length of trailers between the wheels and the landing gear are under ride protection meant to prevent a cyclist from falling under the trailer and getting run over by the wheels. A great idea, required by EU law I think but I’ve never seen it used on a North American trailer. What you DO see on ours sometimes is aerodynamic skirting meant to improve fuel economy.

    C791A748-AC91-475D-82B2-61F374FDC4F1.jpeg

    3. 3 axle trailers are used for heavier loads and not typical to what you’d see loaded on a train. More likely to be a 2 axle trailer I think. Most trailers loaded on flat cars tend to be things like UPS/FedEx packages.

    I mean nothing game breaking but these are things that stick out to North Americans but might not be obvious to someone from UK/Europe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2023
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  25. Anna_AWVR

    Anna_AWVR Active Member

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    To answer your first part, surprisingly that's actually how we do it. We unload/load it with the chassis attached. Since spine-cars have mostly replaced flatcars present-day this is more common. When not in a wellcar, containers sit on four "pedestals" on a spine car. If for some reason one of those was damaged you couldn't load the container, so the workaround is to drop down the pedestals and pull up the hitch. Then just lock the box to the chassis and load as if it were a regular trailer.

    Here's what pedestals look like
    [​IMG]

    As for the second thing, you're right. The only thing some US trailers have is aerodynamic skirting for fuel economy. The protection thing the EU has I don't believe has carried over to America.
    Hope this helps!
     
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  26. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    That has been a problem for I think 3 years right? No progress on that front? It is a big immersion breaker for US freight routes as the consists look seriously artificial without any variety.
    Are they short enough though? The flat car is for two 40' trailers.
     
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Duane Allman, RIP.
     
  28. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Matt!
    Does the SD70ACe have the new DPU behaviour as we found in the ES44C4? I mean the DPU also reacting/responding to our braking input (auto brake & actuated/bailing off the independent brake). Thanks.
     
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  29. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I just keep banging my head at this, SMH.....

    I just feel like there is no point in giving feedback, as it never comes to fruition....
     
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  30. goop#5830

    goop#5830 Member

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    I just hope the consists are longer instead of 50-70 cars. Like I get on older consoles the trains need to be shorter but for new gen you can make trains with 120 cars max and that’s pretty realistic if you ask me since a big majority of the trains in cajon irl are that long. And one last thing, l the game runs smooth with 120 cars, I’ve notice that once you start to get above 120 that’s when the frames start to drop. I just hope dtg looks at this and does something about it cause seeing intermodal trains with 50 cars is kinda a joke tbh.
     
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  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    DPU should have nothing to do with the auto/train brake, which is always controlled directly from the lead.
     
  32. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    Well in real life, then yes. The DP units have nothing to do with auto brake, the DP reacts automatically when a BP reduction is detected. What i'm talking here is the current CJP ES44C4 DP units behaviour, for a fake DP unit i found this feature come pretty handy if the DP units also mirroring our braking input especially the bailing off of the independent brake when we using the dynamic brake. In Sherman Hill, the SD70ACe DP units do not generate any dynamic braking force because of this, the DP units do not mirroring our braking inpu to keep the independent brake from applying when we combine the auto brake + dyn brake.
    I hope you understand my point here, cheers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  33. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Going back to the whole TOFC thing, as mentioned, the closest thing we have that would even properly fit in US TOFC service is the container chassis trailers.

    Its not too rare, but most commonly you would see regular dry vans or reefers vs the container chassis with the 53fts on them.
    51243483977_ece24839b1_b.jpg

    There is also some cases where a chassis will be shipped without any container.
    p495486386-4.jpg
     
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  34. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I was looking around last night and think i've found a candidate US trailer to put on the car - I can't change the car, that'll have to stay as the 89ft flat, but at least that might improve the look a bit. Not for release, something for a post release update.
     
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  35. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Could that also be brought back to HSC?
     
  36. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    Well, i got something from TSW Community Facebook Group, here it is:
    BNSF #9375
    [​IMG]

    Meanwhile, the same unit that wore the same road number in real life:
    (Image source from RR Picture Archives / rrpicturearchives.net)
    [​IMG]

    It's clear the team didn't do the research. Oh geez how i want this loco addition to be nice and hoping this addon going to be fine, but it turns out, well kinda disappointing.
     
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  37. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    That would definitely be an improvement! With the semi trailer replaced and additional timetable layers added, this might be a sale. But in it's current state, sadly, definitely not.

    That's a bit lame, lol. Could've set the running numbers properly or include both the roof headlight (since we already have that from SMH) and nose headlight variant, so that would give even more variety (and all you need to do in extra is repainting the SMH variant into BNSF colors).
     
  38. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree with this. If only the team put a little more effort. It's 21st century and i believed all US Class 1 Railroad road going locomotives rosters are there on the internet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
  39. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    This just shows how little care goes into US content in this game. DTG seriously needs to learn how to ask the community for help Instead of only relying on the “beta testers”. Many people would be more than willing to provide guidance and information on this kind of stuff.

    The interior cab also has inaccuracies for BNSF, among several exterior details. The trucks are wrong as well.

    Also making it a Thundercab is a very poor choice, should’ve had an ISO cab. I just hope to god if we get a new BNSF route some day, this BNSF SD70ACe isn’t reused for that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  40. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    It's clear that this SD70ACe just a glorified reskin of that one on the Sherman Hill.
     
  41. Krazy

    Krazy Well-Known Member

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    Here’s something that could give someone a good fright: the product page for the SD70ACe shows what seems to be a work in progress version, back when it literally was just a reskin of the UP variant.
    upload_2023-3-21_6-48-23.jpeg
    upload_2023-3-21_6-48-39.jpeg
    upload_2023-3-21_6-48-54.jpeg
     
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  42. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    To summarized my thought this far :
    Disappointed but not surprised. US content never get that level of attention from them.

    Edit:
    Please someone from DTG, please aknowledge this. We US railfans or US train enthusiast are here and ready to help. It's clearly not enough to just get input from the so called "Beta Tester", and you'll get what, an incomplete & incorrect things.

    Edit 2:
    And the expression that says "If you don't like it, then don't buy it" is not acceptable anymore.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  43. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Lol, this is brilliant. Which store is that? Could not find the add-on on Steam yet.
     
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  44. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Makes me wonder about the whole process when shots for the product page are done sooner than the product itself. They basically had to rework the whole locomotive after taking these pictures, because model changes go first before applying liveries.
     
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  45. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    I question if they actually have any "experts" on the American Freight side of things on their beta test group, cause these recent releases are all very questionable. At least the passenger side of things has Brandon (and I think Fan Railer?)

    1) For what DTG modeled, the number series should be 9330-9369. (Thanks to griggs for that information). - Not anything else.

    2) Also, again, the Thundercabs aren't allowed to lead BNSF trains, period.
    If anything, at the very bare minimum if they were so set on doing a thundercab - the Timetable formations should've had the lead loco's substitution be like 0.1 and the trailing units kept 0.4, but they didn't even do that either. So you're gonna see the SD70ACe leading fairly often which is immersion breaking.

    DTG Matt Can these two suggestions above also be shared with the team? to tweak the number series to 9330-9369 and set the sub rate of the lead locos much lower than the trailing units?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  46. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    If it ever was.
    Example: ever since I started with TSW - years ago now - I had dreamed of being able to drive the Linke Rheinstrecke. But by that I meant a good realization of the route. Instead we get one which is at best mediocre, certainly not one I would enjoy... and (here is where the harm comes in), since it has been released, that means neither DTG nor anyone else (like TSG) will ever do it again. So my prospect of being able to drive a good rendition of the LRS is squashed forever.
     
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  47. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Well-Known Member

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    After the update today, it appears that Creators Club liveries are now showing up for the ES44C4 in timetable mode. They are still not showing up for the SD40 or freight wagons. Although it was probably only an unintentional byproduct of preparing the route for the SD70, since it shows that this is possible, it should be done for the rest of the units on CJP as well, to put it on equal terms with other DLC.
     
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  48. Krazy

    Krazy Well-Known Member

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    Found them on the PS store.
     
  49. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly how I feel about NYT. Well said.
     
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  50. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    So, given the current situation, especially with SD70ACe addition for the CJP. Is it false for me to mention that forbidden sentence? A.k.a "It's just another low effort cash grab" move from DTG.
     
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