Freight Power (cajon/sherman)

Sounds good!

 

I support it, I think a sensible foreign power system is long overdue for US freight. This could be a great start!

 

Pretty good, if you can make it work. Assuming you have discrete control over spawn probabilities, then you should make UP engines more likely, and NS and CSX locos less likely; it does happen, but not all that often, since locomotives don't generally make cross-country trips. They do sometimes, but not a lot (I don't want to see a return to the days when half the traction on Sand Patch was armor yellow).

 

Sounds like a great solution

 

I like it! I also think it is fine to have the lead loco be foreign power as well. It happens fairly frequently here in the US. I am also looking forward to a new service layer for Cajon Pass. The value of these loco packs for me comes from the extra services added to the timetable.

 

Aren't there regulatory issues with that? Besides a foreign engineer/conductor not being signed off on the route or on foreign signaling, there are also incompatible cab signaling and radio systems.

 

It seems that the BNSF SD70ACe that we have in the game is not usually used as the lead loco. Could it be possible to make the AI only use it in other positions?

Of course, the player would always be able to drive it as the lead unit since that is done by choice.

 

Specifically, it's early model SD70ACes with the un-isolated cab, dubbed the "thundercab" because it was so noisy and rough to ride in. Later variants with the "isolation cab" run lead all the time. (DTG goofed in this regard; they should have made it an iso- a simple matter of adding some wide black lines to the outside, really)

 

Interesting thought. I am not sure how that works, but it does happen that foreign power winds up on point. I have heard about certain runs that require home power on point, but I can't recall the RR or the specific run.

Here is a nice YouTube explanation on foreign power winds up far from home, including on point:

 

If its just adding a couple lines maybe some artist at DTG can fix it in 15 mins. Is it really just that?

 

A couple of visible black lines on the nose would be enough to give at least the illusion of an ISOCab. It would then not look out of place for the BNSF Ace to be lead on a consist.

Actually engineers had a mixed reaction to the ISOCab. Most thought it had reduced vibration, but some still thought the noise from the prime mover wasn't completely eliminated.

 

Sounds good! I think foreign power should have a chance to spawn as the lead too, but have a smaller chance of subbing in than in the other positions. As for operators, I think all the operators should have a chance to sub in, but with appropriate chances for it (UP being more common as it's more local, and CSX and NS being less common since their further away. But yeah, it'd be good to see this come to Cajon, and even cooler if older routes could also receive it if possible too, cause it'd add some nice variation.

 

The lines in the nose and through the battery box probably could be "faked" with some clever artwork, but it would require a model change for the gap between the cab and the electrical compartment

 

Anything that increases variety is always welcome IMO. I have seen videos of foreign power leading trains. A search I just did on youtube for "Norfolk Southern foreign power" gave a couple videos where it was all UP power on the NS trains, so it happens. But should have the lowest probably probably.

 

I believe there were some electrical/computer differences internally, but these would not be visible to the player.

 

Yep, I found a lot of pictures here and from some angles the gaps are much more noticeable than from others.
The required change can be more difficult than what it initially looked like.

Note: Thundercab pictures are at the end of the album (page 7 when I write this). The first pages are iso cabs.

 

That was tongue in cheek....

But, seriously, didn't somebody do the research? Per union contract, "thundercabs" can no longer be assigned as lead units.

 

Please don’t let the NS and CSX AC locos sub in on Cajon as the physics in these trains is just not up to the standard of the later DLC.

One thing that is good about Cajon is that the dynamic brakes appear to work very well and a similar situation with Sherman Hill. This is not the case with either the NS or CSX AC units in the game and they would alter the controllability of the consists in a bad way were they to sub in on any drivable service.

 

I’m fine with the substitution as long as the primary railroad remains as the most common spawn. So as long as most of the trains on Cajon Pass are BNSF, most of the trains on Sherman Hill are UP, etc., I’m fine with it.

 

My suggestions

1)
Please a low chance of seeing foreign power. I don’t wanna see foreign power on multiple trains while driving along, it should be a rare sight still.

2)
- I agree that the lead loco should have foreign power substitution disabled.

3)
Do not substitute GP38-2’s as foreign power. Keep it to the wide cabs and the SD40-2’s.

4)
Keep it era appropriate, I don’t wanna see the TSW2 New Journeys SD40 or the Clinchfield stuff in a modern day timetable.


RE: BNSF SD70ACe;
Adding the black lines along the exterior to “fake” an ISO cab would be so much better - however if you decide to do that, please change the road numbers in the RVN to be proper for ISO cab units. The number series that exist right now for it are just incorrect.


Thank you Matt

 

I can follow most of this thread but am having one terminology problem. Could someone define "on point" in this context, please?

 

I agree with this. The fun of North American content in TSW (beyond blasting the horn of course!) is proper train handling. This requires proper modelling of dynamic brake physics, an initial air reduction of only 6 pounds, and an accelerometer.

However, I assume that the subbing we are talking about is for AI trains. So, unless you are spawning on foot and taking over, you would get to chose the on point loco. What I don't know is how TSW handles dynamic braking physics with different power units in the train. Is it wholly based on the lead loco or does TSW try to combine the braking physics of all the locos.

FInally, if lifting the "foreign power ban" could apply to player driven locos, it would be cool to run SD70Ace's or ES44AC's on SPG and HSC.

For the wish list: a smaller initial reduction on the ES44AC and accurate accelerometers for the the ES44AC and SD70Ace - although I did a quick run just know and the one of the Ace seems to be behaving better. Was this patched?

The loco on point is the lead locomotive.

 

It could be considered non-trivial simulation-wise, but realism-wise its a very important distinction. The non-isolated cabs are so loud that BNSF has banned them from leading trains, and NS also withdrew them from service. In fact, they're so loud that they're considered a work hazard - crews had to wear earplugs/noise-cancelling headphones in them to not risk permanent hearing damage.

The isolated cabs completely separate the cab itself from the frame. That black line is the seam from a rubber gasket that isolates the cab from the frame to reduce noise and vibrations. nsdash9.com has some good reference photos of an NS SD70ACu undergoing rebuild that show the 2 separate isolated parts before being installed on the locomotive.

 

Personally I think foreign power should be determined by the train, and its origin and destination.

For example, BNSF's Daygo between Barstow and San Diego should have a an extremely rare chance of foreign power spawning, due to this train mainly going between 2 BNSF yards. Though recently a very rare C40-8 from CSX found its way onto the train.


While on the other end of the spectrum, BNSF has intermodal trains that interchange with Norfolk Southern in the east, on these trains, it isn't uncommon for them to have NS power in the mix, or outright leading as well.



Of course, there should be a small chance for something bizarre can happen as well, such as this fun lashup from 2014 on BNSF's H-SLABAR, in which UP's MoPac Heritage unit and Norfolk Southerns Virginian unit were in the same consist.


I should also note, the only locomotives that SHOULD be subbing in are the mainline diesels, which means NO SD40-2s, or GP38-2s! If we were talking mid 2000's or earlier, then the SD40-2 could, but no TSW routes are set in that era.....

 

Sounds good!

My input on foreign power if possible:

1. SD40s and GP38s should not sub to areas off their home railroad. Nowadays those locos are kept for local work and yard switching. You wouldn’t see for example a CSX SD40 in California with BNSF trains. Mainline wide cab diesels are the ones that do travel. So the UP and BNSF SD70ACe, CSX AC44 (and also probably the Dash-8), UP AC44, BNSF ES44C4 and NS ES44AC would all be candidates for foreign power. (Assuming the older locos don’t cause physics problems with the newer longer trains).

2. If possible it would be nice for them to have lower chance of showing up than the home locos. So you see them as a notable thing but not every single train. For example for a while SPG seemed to have just as much UP yellow as CSX which was not realistic.

I’ve mentioned this before but in the summer I spent 3 days in the HSC and SPG areas in real life spotting. On HSC’s real life route I saw I think 3 total foreign locos (all UP) out of dozens of trains, never leading. On SPG’s real life area I saw 0, only CSX locos. I think foreign power is somewhat overstated in the world of photos and videos because spotters tend to post them more often when they stand out. You see it but in my experience the home railroad usually dominates their own lines.

As for the isocab thing maybe I’m the minority but I’d rather suspend my belief with an accurate model even if it’s technically not supposed to lead (it’s not like we need to wear ear plugs in game) than have it faked with just a paint job edit.

 

The crew would change. So say a UP train entered NS territory, it wouldn’t be a UP crew driving it, a NS crew takes over. So even if a train on NS lines has a UP leader it’s a NS crew driving. I’m 99% sure that’s how it would work.

 

would love for this to work out

 

Well, here's hoping for substitution to work on locos again and not be like SPG, too many foreign powers from different routes seen in one place is ridiculous (especially with the GP38s and SD40s for yard switching or locals). But if only doing it for the main haulers (manifest, intermodal, coal), then seeing foreign on a slim chance will suffice like the others have said (as long as I don't have to see too many foreign locos in one yard so to speak).

 

UP and BNSF dominate in my part of the Midwest, but run through power is also fairly common, with NS, CN and, to a lesser extent, CSX a regular sight on long intermodals.

I assume this "pooling " happens in the West too, so I wouldn't be put out by seeing some Eastern interlopers on Cajon. In fact, it would add to the fun.

Would foreign rolling stock also show up on these run through trains?

 

I like the idea if becomes a thing adding more variety in the locomotives we could see maybe also with the Norfolk Southern ES44AC from HSC even though it's a Skyhook loco it's worth having a look into and also the CSX AC4400CW from Sandpatch

 

That seems like a good option to start with.

—

I would say that fixing the freight car substitution system to allow for loaded cars would be something I’d like to see more, but I’m sure that’s a much bigger, harder task to do. However it’s something that’s gotta be done at some point. Truly mixed freight consists would be amazing.

 

Would also require changing the numbers though since the current numbers are correct for the early "thundercab" models.

 

The idea sounds good.
Sorry for tagging, DTG Matt
Actually i have one important request if it's possible and not needing a lot of works, bring the ES44C4 physics and port it to the SD70ACe. I find it's very hard to hold speed when running the train downhill because if an SD70ACe becomes a DP units and i applied the autobrake to work in tandem with the dynamic brake, the SD70ACe as a DPU didn't generate any dynamic braking power and make me apply more BP reduction to compensate this. Just finishing a scenario "Manifest Madness". with 2+0+1 engines formation (2 SD70ACe upfront + 1 SD70ACe at the bottom/rear end of the train as a DPU). My conclusion is because the SD70ACe as a DP, didn't mirror our air brake input, including the actuation/bailling-off of the independent brake when we combine the auto brake & the dynamic brake (because at each BP reduction, the DP react with applying it's brake cylinder so cutting off their dyn brake). In ES44C4, the DP unit does mirror our air brake input, so the dyn brake never cut itself out because on each BP reduction, i'm actuating/bailing off the independent brake to keep the dyn brake from cutting out.

This is a shot taken from the lead engine, i make a 8 pound of BP reduction and approx 63% of dynamics.


This is shot taken from the DPU cab (i'm accessing it by (Ctrl) + (-) shortcut key)
Notice that the Tractive Effort indicator shows 0 (not generating any dyn brake force) although the control lever mirror my input of notch 5-6 dynamic brake. And notice that the Brake Cylinder (BC) value indicator shows 12 that indicating the independent brake on the DP applied because i make a BP reduction. This make the dynamic brake to cut out to prevent the wheel from locking.

 

While that's true, the in-game SD70 is luxury-compartment quiet. So that part of the job is already done!

 

This.

 

It’s not all that uncommon to see bnsf power in a up consist and vice versa. It’s also not uncommon to see up or bnsf power out east on a ns consist or ns power out west on a up and bnsf consist. Think not as often as a heritage unit but if you watch a railcam for an entire day you’re sure to see it at least once or twice.

I hope you can pull it off. It was nice to see random up power show up on sand patch grade it’s be nicer to see that more often on us freight routes

 

First equalize physics in all locos and give it a go. BTW I contacted Skyhook and they promised to fix rear boogie in AC4400CW (after they finish current project).... visually AC4400cw is one of the nicest locos, with fixing braking and boogie change it would sub nicely.

 

Sounds fine for AI train, but if they player wants to drive a BNSF loco on a UP route, why not let the first loco substitute to other operators as well, for the player train only?

 

Are you 100% sure that the game can substitute the player loco? I cant remember any time that I selected a loco to start a timetable service and the game gave me another (and I play a lot).

 

Definitely a solid idea and I don't mind only the trailing locos being possibly a foreign power.

To the topic of the new layer - would it be possible to also implement the UP services as playable? Especially those that go to Barstow use quite a big chunk of the route and the UP trackage in that pass itself would finally see some gameplay. Since a layer is now being worked on, it's probably the best time to mention it. And it could also go hand in hand with the foreign power thing, just in UP trains.

 

I dont know much about American freight as i live in England, but since playing this game ive got right into Cajon pass and the other American routes. ive watched a lot of YouTube vids as well i would like to see them heritage units that been put on Sherman hill layered into Cajon pass if possible and given the choice of using them if we want to. i play on a PS 5

 

Maybe just braking capabilities? To have es44c4 standard for all?

 

This is what we need.

 

Please consider this as well ^

 

This is interesting to me. I actually prefer the SD 70ACe braking because the initial reduction is only 6 pounds. Do you prefer the ES44C4?