Anyone else noticed that when driving the DB DR 103 above +/- 40 km/h and applying the brakes, the brake cylinder pressure goes up way too far? (in minimal application, I get a BC of almost 3 bar) This makes it difficult to gently slow down when wanting to slow down from lets say 130 to 110 km/h. When the speed drops under 40km/h I see the BC pressure dropping from 3 bar to 0.7 bar when holding the brakes in minimal application. (Brake Pipe pressure stays the same around 4.7 bar) I think this is a bug right? Or are the brakes on the DB BR 103 supposed to do this?
I don't know if its a bug but I definitely noticed that too. It takes it sooo long to release as well.
I had a search on that, and I see the DB BR 103 has 3 brake modes (R/P/G) It is standard set on R (the handle is in the machine room, when you enter the loco, the panel in front of you just to the bottom left). Going to try the different settings P or G and see if it improves and let you gently slow down.
Dynamic Brake is good for gentle adjustments, I had a couple of runs in it last night and thought the same as you, the BP is insane (although if Maik says it’s right then it likely is), but yeah, I found a lot more success with the dynamic to adjust for speed changes.
At least in US heavy freight practice, you never touch the "big air" unless you are stopping, or descending a steep grade.
R would be normal for operation with passenger coaches, unless for some weird reason you were pulling very old ones. G is for freight. These settings affect the brake timing, not force; P (Personen) applies and releases more slowly than R (Rapid), and G (Güter) is even slower than that.
For dropping only a few km/h a quick squirt on the brakes and then immediately releasing them will do the trick or use the dynamic like others suggest. I haven’t a clue if it is right but that has worked for me.
From where exactly do you take the technical study to judge the 103 brakes? Should devs adjust brake performance according to players personal preferences...?
Where did Fox tell anyone to do anything? They were simply pointing out the current behaviour, found it to be odd in comparison to other locos (which it is) and asked if it was supposed to behave like that. Chill out.
Interesting, I also complained about the brakes elsewhere...so testing in "P" setting now. It would be rather nice if this would be documented somewhere in the game.
So here is a video of the BR 103 brakes in "P" mode, I don't think that this fast braking is realistic...Brakes are applied to 60% not even a hundred percent.
The 103 was designed to pull a 400 tonne train at 200 km/h- but also to conform with the then standard DB requirement to be able to stop from full speed within 1000 meters. Therefore it was indeed given big whopping brakes.
It was 60% brakes applied, no emergency braking. So I still doubt it is realistic. But maybe someone can enlighten me that the 103 and the 110 do have correct braking behaviour, I would be greatful for that.
That isn't entirely correct. G is slow, but P and R are equally fast. The only difference with R is high braking, adding brake cylinder pressure at higher speeds to account for the decrease of deceleration with increased speed, to shorten the stopping distance. However, to my knowledge, the game still does this wrong. When using both the indirect brake and the dynamic brake (which is the standard behaviour as they're mechanically linked), as long as the dynamic brake is generating sufficient brake force, the loco air brake shouldn't apply at all. It is set up this way to avoid overheating the brakes with those very high cylinder pressures in high braking. In fact, you are even required to put the brakes in "P" if the dynamic brake is defective to disable high braking for this reason.
I made some brake tests, and the pressures were all correct. The High Braking is getting active above 70kmh and will allow a max. brake cylinder pressure of 8bar, below 55kmh the high braking is turned off and max. brake cyl. pressure is about 3.8bar. The 103 is a toaster, capable of el. brake power up to 10000kw (4800kw continous), also the brakevalues are effective. This locomotive is evolution in highspeed, many confuse it probably with an rusty oldtimer . The only thing wasnt according to my information is, that in tsw currently "high braking" is also possible in the P - Mode. Maybe its because Limitations of TSW, or even there could be different Locomotive configurations too. (G & P would not change into high braking and limit its max. cylinder pressure up to 3.8bar, while only the R-Mode allows it to go into high braking above 70kmh. I think the loco is very well done, also detailed and as high speed iC as true to life as possible for a sim like tsw.
Here a Spad of a freight with a vectron + emergency brake application (its not from 160kmh, but very high brake performance):
Are those pictures from original Br 103 manuals by any chance? I’m considering buying some old manuals specifically to get into more prototypical operations and having that background knowledge for discussions like these.
I would be very greatful if someone official could add a comment about the brakes of the 110 and the 103. Their is a lot of helpful information here. So is the system in the game not working correctly, like the brake system is explained above, it is realistic, is it not possible to simulate the system realiticly in TSW and this is the "best" which could be done or is the brake system in the game too agressive?
I don't feel comfortable giving an assessment on whether the brakes on the BR110 or BR103 are realistic or not. I haven't tested them (with regards to brake physics). However, what I can do is to give some test setups for those that are interested (might be a fun exercise ). These tests would be in accordance with UIC norms. NOTE: Whether the locomotives conform to these test norms or not, does not necessarily mean that they are realistic or unrealistic. For example, I am aware of certain Swedish ore wagons that deviate wildly from their rated braked weights. Still, usually the UIC norms are quite close to reality and they state that a safety margin should not be included in the final value. I was pleasantly surprised to see that a real BR101 + IC train only differed in deceleration rates from the sim by a couple of percent for each step (as recorded by chirimu ). 1. In P-brake make an emergency brake application from 100 km/h with the electric brake (E-brake) deactivated and no coaches/wagons. Note! gradient must be approximately 0% (flat). Note this test is for the G-brake braked weight (confusingly) but P-brake is to be enabled. 2. Measure the stopping distance from the instance the emergency brake was applied and the locomotive has stopped. 3. Repeat (1)-(2) but change: P-brake to R-brake (still no E-brake activated) and change 100 km/h to 120 km/h. 4. Repeat (3) but include E-brake. BR110: G BrH: 65 R BrH: 136 R+E BrH: 176 (2) should yield approximately: 700 meters. (3) should yield approximately: 620 meters. (4) should* yield approximately: 490 meters. BR103: G BrH: 73 R BrH: 129 R+E BrH: 176 (2) should yield approximately: 630 meters. (3) should yield approximately: 650 meters. (4) should* yield approximately: 480 meters. *R+E braked weights are usually conservative (in contrast to air brake - braked weights that according to UIC should not include safety margins) so these values will probably overestimate the true stopping distance a bit.
What you state regarding "R" vs "P" and "G"-brake is correct. G-brake: applies (emergency) to 95% of max pressure in 18-30 seconds and releases down to 0.4 bar in 45-60 seconds. R/P-brake: applies (emergency) to 95% of max pressure in 3-5 seconds and releases down to 0.4 bar in 15-20 seconds. Afaik these timings act "upstream" of the brake pressure intensifier (bad translation of "Druckübersetzer", maybe pressure amplifier is better) so the timings will hold in both high and low brake regimes. G/P only allow low braking pressure (niedriger abbremsung) while R allows high braking (hohe abbremsung). How hohe abbremsung behaves differs between different types of locomotives/coaches. On rolling stock with tread brakes hohe abbremsung usually activates at high speed while on disc braked vehicles it is either constantly in effect in R (e.g. BR146/BR185) or actually activates at low speed (e.g. BR101 or BR182). Regarding the BR110 I have confirmed with a driver that in emergency the locomotive actually applies both E-brake and air brake, but the pressure is only applied to the low brake value (3.8 bar).
Yes, and basicly you nailed the point why the 103 is braking overpowered. I made some further testing, while pressures on the 103 are right, the combination of the el & pn brakes, in tsw due a normal brake application both seem to be active and produce brake force. For a normal brake application in combination of both el & pn, the loco would brake with electrics only down to 25kmh, after that the pneumatic brakes start to build up pressure in the cylinder. (In emergency from 45kmh the pneumatic brake is getting active down to 25kmh) On the 110, the usual brake application (combined el & pn), same as the 103, but only the electric brakes would be active down to 17kmh, after that the pneumatic brake is getting active. In emergency (R & G Mode), both are getting active as somebody above already mentioned. So at the bottom of the line, like i said there is different loco configuartions, maybe the reference model for tsw had a different set up or changes, also there is a ton of other stuff which is obviously not modeled because it wouldn make sense or make the dlc too expensive. For anybody, who has already seen real locomotive & train documentations and drawings, its just insane the systems. (Only to cover all possible brake situations, maik would need to create 20 new features for the loco). With a bit of walkaround, the player is able to brake either electrically or pneumatically separate, but i agree, especially in the combined use, which is standard, it doesnt make sense to me why it got "forgotten" (Maybe tsw limitations?).
Not an answer... Just commiserating... I, too, am struggling with the brakes to make smooth and accurate station stops. My problem is the same as is mentioned ITT, wherein the brake cylinder pressure is very high and locks up and is difficult to release. At high speeds, making speed adjustments is no problem. I use the dynamic brakes out of necessary a minimum application applied and quickly put into release (holding release). I also find that while holding release and applying power that the brake cylinder releases quicker. I'm not sure why, though one streamer speculated that maybe there is some sort of hill start technology in releasing that applying power helps (just speculating, no idea if that's the case). The real trouble begins when doing a station stop. I try to use minimum application as much as possible, and to not leave it in minimum application if I'm noticing the BP is getting too high. If I need to use more than minimum application to slow down, oh boy. It definitely slows me down (Uber schnell lol) but the BP doesn't want to release. It seems to lock on. This leads to stopping short and doing abruptly. It's very difficult to have an accurate stop and any respect for passenger comfort. I also find that the BP activity does seem linked to what speed you apply at. A minimum application at 100km is vastly different than a minimum application at 15km. And it's not the dynamics, it's the air brakes. Perhaps the system is designed knowing that dynamics are less effective at lower speeds and so if it senses you are under a certain threshold speed you get a larger dose of BP cylinder pressure. I wouldn't mind this IF (big if here) they didn't lock up and would release in a reasonable fashion. A note to our community ambassador streamers: If you can, I'm sure a braking tutorial video for this train would be a great help!
The airbrakes on the br 103 has the independent loco brake, the air braking in low braking and above 70kmh the high braking. The pressures are not the same yes and its made well. I explained already what seems to be "wrong" in the mainz feedback thread. So asuming you want a smoother experience, turn off the 2 control valves for the bogies. Its in no way a realistic provedure but its forcing the loco to brake electric only while using the combined lever. Your train coaches have the pneumatic application and your loco the electric as it should be. Below 25kmh the brakes would build up pressure, but since you turned them off, your coaches are gonna brake. The reason for this walkaround is the fact, that you get below 25kmh not more than 4 times, but driving the route + braking takrs 99% of the time above 25kmh. Just hope dtg is gonna fix that.
Definitely not a limitation, and in case someone wants to see this kind of behaviour (with different values in terms of km/h) in action, just take a seat in the BR 185 (you can easily do this at the Training Center) and do the following: Get moving (the Training Center Oval is pretty much ideal for this). Apply the air brake exclusively (either indirect or direct, it doesn't matter). Watch the brake cylinder pressure, it will rise to the set level. Play around with the dynamic brake. Apply it, release it, apply it to varying amounts. Watch the dynamic brake force after you've moved the dynamic brake lever. Watch the brake cylinder pressure, it will drop as the dynamic brake force rises. You can either use this to completely override the air brake and get the brake cylinder all the way to 0 bar, or find a balance where you get some dynamic brake and some air brake. This is realistic and clearly, the game and the devs can handle it. Implementing this on the BR 103 (and BR 110) should be possible, let's hope DTG read this thread.
Maybe we should all open a ticket on this issue for both locos? Or maybe DTG JD could state here, that the issue is already noted?
Regarding this part "or find a balance where you get some dynamic brake and some air brake". I have asked two different drivers now (with experience on the 110 and newer locos like the TRAXX) and apparently this is not correct. If you make any electric brake application the Cv will vent leading to no brake cylinder pressure. Only when you fully release the electric brake do you regain the brake cylinder pressure. For example: let's say you move the Fbrv (brake valve) to VB (full service) while holding the electric brake lever in F. You then get maximum brake cylinder pressure. If you now move the electric brake to the lowest application position (EB1 in the BR110) you get a tiny amount of electric brake force but the brake cylinders also fully vent.
Exactly, this behaviour is necessary if a driver goes into the service brake application with both the el & pn brakes lets say with 100kmh, the loco is now braking only electric, but the coaches or wagons will brake pneumaticly due the brake application. If the driver does want to brake electric only, this is done by the loco and will be effective to a lower speed. On the 103 the el brakes should cut out anyway below 25kmh. If the driver is now braking pneumatic only, both the coaches and the brake cylinders of the loco are beeing pressurized. On the 103 the high braking is actually well implemented.
After what you have done to fhe 101, I just hope DTG hires you to sort out the brakes for fhe 103 (and 110 in this regard)…
Thanks for your reply. I definitely am still struggling, particularly in the 110 on the local stopping services. I didn't know about the low versus high braking. That makes sense now as it explains why a minimum application at 80km/h gives me certain behaviour versus the behaviour of a minimum application at 15km/h. I'm not really interested in doing a non prototypical work around just to make it smoother and/or my life easier. I am interested in doing it correctly and real to life. Can you explain to me how you would drive and brake for stations that are 2-3km apart in the 110? Much obliged!
Depending on your train weight. Aim to be down to 60 km/h when you reach the platform, braking with 4.2 - 4.0 bar. (it also depends on how the wagons are fitted - disc brakes or drum brakes which needed different braking techniqe.) Then slowly release the brakes to 4.5 then 4.7 - then it was common practice for a smooth stop to release the train brake just before the train comes to a halt and apply the loco brake to hold it. Just practice a little.
Wow, I'm much nicer to my passengers than y'all are! My sequence is 1 km 80 500m 60 200m 40, which is usually the start of the platform from there brake 1B should stop at the halt board, assuming level ground
Depends on how long the train and the platforms are Some of the stations that accommodate ICE trains in Germany are insanely long, nearly 500 meters. Same in the UK for the stations that take Eurostar trains. In TSW both Stratford and Ashford international (TSW3) are longer than 400m and you also have Fulda and Kassel (latter being 480m according to Google Earth). One of the drivers I've talked with when researching trains told me that sometimes it's possible to hit the platforms at 100 km/h
Sure, I’d agree in those circumstances but I thought we were discussing the principle stations along the Rhine. Not sure id compare HighSpeed stations & ICE consist breaking against a local station in a BR 110 lol.
After reading all this it sounds like you might have to be a rocket scientist just to use the brakes on the 103.
Not really, I simply use the dynamic brake if I need to slow down and the train brake when stopping at a station.
Still recovering from the PTSD of learning the PZB, and now you folks tell me that the brakes also needs to be taken care of !!! *Sad noises here*
I'm not sure what happened but i was testing a solo db 103 on the TGV route to test solo loco top speed. But on a steep incline the loco shutdown and the reset technic of putting the loco in N and the power tap at 0 and fully releasing the brakes did not reset the loco.All my loco will do is roll backwards until i put on the brakes again.So what should i try next?
It is not realistic. As have been mentioned before the brake blending system in the game is incorrect. You should not have both electric braking and air braking applied at the same time. Furthermore, both the individual brake systems (electric and air) are tuned too high (the brake force is much higher than it is IRL). The BR110 suffers from the same issues.
Well, Maik said there's someone looking at it (no promises of course). Hopefully, the implementation can be improved.
I hope they do. Whatever is the problem with those brakes it just doesn't feel correct at all. The brakes take a year to release and 40% Train Brake got me over 7Bar of brake force. That cant be right, especially considering the deceleration which didnt feel like 7bar but more like 2 or 3 compared with other trains like the 101 and IC Coaches. Brakes on the 110 feel less weird, even they are pretty much on the Strong side.
Seems you neither read past comments on this thread nor cant you really judge what your talking about how brakes "feel". The high braking goes well up to 8 bar cyl. Pressure. The problem with the tsw 103 is, that both electric brakes are working with the pneumatic brakes on the loco. Just cut off the "vorsteuervalves" of the bogies on the 103 when running a passenger service. This way you get a better braking experience. Additionally just use the pneumatic brakes only.
I know that I'll draw a lot of fire but here's 'my way' of doing PZB on German trains... Passenger trains -> 'O' Mode Freight Trains with weight < 1100 tons -> 'M' Mode Freight Trains with weight >= 1100 tons -> 'U' Mode Don't ask me how I came up with that
Excuse me, im well aware of how the brakes feel for me personally. Im no technican nor am i working on the railroad. All i can judge is based of experience i get from other trains in TSW, or some people on YouTube that are real train drivers, and even they are pretty clear about the brakes of the 103. So where, other than in this forum, did i get told to cut off those valves ? How should i know if im just a regular player who never visit this forum? I mean i appreciate your help but there is a clear confirmation on this thread that those brakes are implemented wrong. So im asking for a fix. Or at least they could do a real tutorial how to use those brakes. Is it really prototypical to cut those off ? Is it prototypical to just use electr OR the Train Brake (why would you build a connection between those two brakes if it wouldn't been used)? Somehow this thread left me with more questions than answers.
Just wait till the novelty of PZB has worn off and we’ll have you calculate BrH left, right, and centre! It most certainly isn’t. Using only one or the other is just a workaround to get more realistic brake performance.
