Hi. I want to raise the topic of gameplay. Personally, I strive for the most realistic experience, I do not use HUD and other indicators, but I have to track the distance to the next stop point. Ideally, I would like to completely hide the interface, but it is difficult to navigate the route. I suppose you need to have a list of stations along the route and know their location well. Perhaps someone is already practicing such gameplay and will be able to share their experience. Thanks. ChangedAs a result, I came up with the idea of creating diagrams, like a farplane, by which I navigate the route by kilometer signs. As new charts are replenished, I will publish them here. Route list: Main Spessart bahn Ruhr Sieg Nord Linke Rheinstrecke Will be updated in the future.
Best way to do it, is to run the route with the HUD on, then document all the changes such as speeds, signalling blocks & stations. Note down landmarks to help to recognise where these things occur & how far in advance they are. You will also need to know your train well, breaking distance, acceleration, how it handles in adverse weather & length. Once you’ve compiled all the info you can use the document to run the route. You could also have a look online for a ‘Sectional Appendix’ for UK routes, but you would be depending on TSW being 100% accurate, which it often isn’t. Something like BML would be a good place to start since it’s quite a simple route overall & relatively well signposted.
Route learning is very much part of "the art of driving trains" and as CK95 above says, this means running the route, taking notes, noting things like landmarks and braking and stopping points and then committing these to memory Then you can drive HUDless When I did playtesting at DTG several years ago I suggested something like this be built into the "learning experience" for the game, but DTG want people to be able to pick up the game and just play rather than having to learn things...
I am convinced that the ideal option would be to introduce a "realistic" regime in addition to the existing one.
As an option, I created a map of one of the German routes, with distance indicators from the head station. I think you can use them to navigate relative to the stations. Naturally, it will be necessary to follow these signs along the route. Maybe it will be far from reality, but I haven't come up with anything better)
My thoughts on it are this (amended to suit current TSW3 play options) 1 - the training centre teaches you how to control the game, including things like mouse, keyboard or controller functions, how to open doors, collect assets etc 2 - the training centre teaches you how to set up each train from dark to running, including safety systems, controls, lights etc 3 - you do some basic runs on the TC to ensure you can start the train, stop it, that you have the safety systems down etc 4 - Once you complete these basics (say 5 runs) you get a "license" and can continue to journey mode 5 - Journey mode no longer has any of the intro scenarios, these are all in TC. Journey mode will teach you the route allowing you to learn stations, platforms, speeds and so on. As you progress through the journey you get less help from the HUD Once you've completed journey mode you "unlock" timetable mode which is a HUDless or minimal HUD experience
So I run the route with the HUD and dictate notes as I am driving noting gradient changes, POI mile posts etc I use the windows default speak to text (window key + H ) although theres probably far better ones on the market
Honestly the best & most simplistic approach would just be full HUD control. IMO the do this to unlock this only adds to the ‘game’ effect. I don’t see why I should be forced to do things I have no interest in, just to get to the timetable mode that I can use perfectly well the way I want too. Ideally for new routes I would like the option to only have a distance counter to learn the initial stopping pattern, but then that only applies to UK routes. If I move over to a German or US route, I’d need more HUD guidance. Again though this all comes back to accessibility, and the lack of it, I don’t think we’d ever find a solution everyone will agree with outside of full user control.
I've often thought a small text box that can be enabled or disabled, and this would be 'route knowledge'. Content could vary, but I envision things like "Repeater Signal XXXX is next, and the start of a 45 mph restricted speed section" or "That tower on the left marks the start of a long, slow descent into XXXX station" Something that even casual players can learn over time, eventually not needing the text box to be there at all.
OK, so you walk into the job as a train driver and expect to be able to drive with no assistance on day one? You're right, we won't be able to come to an agreement that suits everyone mainly because some WANT a game experience of picking up a train and just driving it where others want to have a more realistic experience of having to learn it so you don't need the aids
No, I expect to open TSW and play it. The difference between being able to drive with purely a distance UI, and only accessing the timetable after you complete training & journey modes, is that you cannot do the former, but as a player you can self impose the latter. The only thing your suggestion would do is unnecessarily restrict players. I don’t disagree with making the training more comprehensive, and the journeys restructured into a more realistic & progressive experience. If anything that would make me more likely to actually give them a go. Like I said earlier, I already have a system in place that allows me to go from practicing a route, to going hudless (if I want to do that). The only thing that having better customisation of the HUD would do, is make that process faster for me. Doing a forced progression system only prolongs the process, and wouldn’t necessarily stop players from needing their own handmade guides.
That's making it very much more "a game" then In some ways yes. For me it would do away with the question of "how do I drive without the HUD" though. If you had to learn the route to do full timetable runs properly... Of course journey mode would be available almost instantly
I’m not a fan of the concept of things having to be unlocked as I’d much rather dive straight into Timetable Mode and learn as I go then have to go through training scenarios etc. I do think that having more control over which HUD elements are visible, what size, where on the screen etc would be valuable, but once you know how to make HUD elements smaller, TSW is reasonably good for this already (better than TSC). I used to drive HUDless but I found I didn’t really get enough hours playing TSW to learn and retain all the routes properly and the learning process was less enjoyable than just driving. In the end I’ve compromised and I drive with only the next speed restriction and next station info displayed (both made very small, in the corner of the screen). My rule is that I use the next station info to pick my initial braking point only, then I don’t look at it again, braking entirely by eye. For me this approach gives the right balance - avoiding lots of route learning, but also being able to spend most of my time looking at and reacting to the view ahead, not to the HUD.
One thing TSC has over TSW is that it doesnt' just show you the next signal and speed change, but over a range in front of you, which somewhat alleviates the 90-50-15mph speed steps within a few yards... Other than that I find the TSW HUD reasonably useful
If we’re honest with what TSW is, that is exactly what it is. TSW has quite the gap between game & simulation, and simply adding a progress blocking system isn’t going to shorten that gap by much. But that’s where you run into the issue of who can & can’t do what. If someone is perfectly capable of playing hudless, why should they be forced to undergo hours of training and Journey modes, which wouldn’t be of interest to them. You also remove the massive benefit of timetable mode from people, they can play what they want & how they want, which is a pretty big selling point for TSW. You’d then have to trust the various devs to get this system right & provide adequate training, which we know they don’t do well. For the sake of simply adding in more hud customisation, is it really worth all the work & risk? Forgetting the fact that you’d never guarantee a player would get enough training to play hudless, how many people simply would not want to? You then drive business away.
Learning a route simply takes a lot of time, therefore it is not going to be suitable for or desired by most people. However if you want to, it's totally possible to learn a route in TSW for driving during the daytime, I think night time could be a struggle on many routes. I own 23 routes, I have spent a lot of time in this game and there are only 3 that I can reliably play without the HUD or some sort of cheat sheet. Some routes are much easier to learn than others, the process I have followed in the past is: 1. Create or find a map of the route 2. Make a complete trip up and down the route as slowly as you need (you won't be able to keep to time) with the full HUD on in each direction. Note down every station, change of speed etc. For some routes with mileposts it's easiest to note the position of everything in relation to mileposts, otherwise you are going to have note other memorable features. 3. Study your notes and try and memorise them, this is a memory game within a game. 4. Drive the route a lot. 5. Progressively make less and less use of your notes until you can do it without looking at them at all.
Not going to lie, definitely would have put me off. I'll learn the routes I like, but if I'm forced to do it, then I wouldn't enjoy/ spend money on the game
Most people know the keystroke shortcuts. If you want to start things up from cold and dark (often requested) and without using the keys then that's different, and this is supposed to be a sim after all. Not mario kart with metal wheels
Don't know I'll like 'em till I buy them. I mean it more in a like it, LIKE IT and love it sense. So, I like all the routes I have, but ones like TVL, I can't stand the 101, so I wouldn't play it at all if I had to learn the route, as I usually just run the 31 to and from the freight yard. but WCL, CCL and EDN, I would put the effort into learning as those are my go to routes. There is that fine line between sim and SIM where things quickly stop becoming fun though. One thing I dislike about the TGV is just how complex the brake check is at the start. I just want to relax and drive a train, I don't really care about performing the tedious (and oftern forgetful) brake setup.
You need the hud on as you won’t know when passenger loading has finished? also routes like Brighton have iffy stop markers meaning you need it to stop accurately. You have to stop when the hud says 6ft.
I am a big fan of driving with limited aids BUT totally against the idea of locking content behind what effectively is a 12-24 hour plus training module. Every one learns differently and at differing paces. There's nothing wrong with how it is set up now, I just wish we could get more options on what aids are shown (for example there's no way to know if passengers are loaded and you can shut the doors without having the distance to next marker on screen.
Here's my approach to the most realistic experience. This is gonna ruffle the feathers for all you no-HUD players out there. And before you ask, no I'm not against actual route learning. I turn off the score counter, the speedometer, rainbow stop markers and all the other stuff that shows up on the ground. In the top left I have the next station HUD. In the top right I have the next signal location with the signal color blanked out. I also have the next speed limit. The reason why I say this feels most realistic is because a real driver WOULD know all these things. A real driver would know where the signal is, but not necessarily what it's displaying. A real driver would know where the speed limits are. A real driver also wouldn't switch from a 465 to an ICE in one day. I'm not a real driver but I want to get as close to that feeling as possible, as quickly as possible, on all the content I own. That's not to say I don't learn my favorite routes. I just do it naturally and over time. At this point I can run Southeastern High Speed blindfolded. What I strive for in terms of realism is specific operating procedures. Running brake tests, horn and bell procedures, stuff like that. I've found that a lot of that stuff is either not public information, or in German. Neither of which help.
You just need to setup the loco (master key, circuit breaker, armed, driving mode, reverser). You will hear the locomotive's motors rev up. Brakes are just release until needle at 5 and you can move.
I support the idea of displaying information about the location of the next semaphore or speed limit, but ideally it should be implemented through train systems, metotome output to monitors, as it is done in reality, if we are talking about German trains. I think this needs to be done in addition to the HUD so that the player can choose the degree of realism himself.
Almost the same for me, but I turn the signals off completely. My reasoning for this is that what I leave on is exactly the information EBuLa would give me: Next stop, where is the next stop, when do I leave again, current speed limit, next speed limit - that’s all on the EBuLa. If available, I will occasionally use book timetables, the printed precursor to EBuLa, but that’s always a bit of a hassle on console if you don’t want to print everything all the time.
This is where the journey and scenarios come in. They allow you to jump in and not bother with the whole setup and learning business, but if you do them enough you'll end up learning the route anyway. For instance I know that if you're driving between Rainham and Gillingham on the SEHS you start braking just after the wood yard on your left for the 60 just before Gillingham depot... That sort of thing IRL most times you'd get the guard buzzer telling you, or a timetable sheet saying when to leave. DTG have made it that you need to complete a specific amount of door open time for it to class as a successful stop. That's not how it works IRL Simplest way would be to have the guard buzzer go off twice when the passenger cycle is complete or something similar
Having the guard buzzer/bell sound to inform you that the doors are closed and you can proceed would have been a great little feature.
Or as a quick fix to the "can I go yet?" have it as a signal to close the doors in the first place and then you go when the interlock light goes off
I find it is still ridiculous that you have to operate the doors yourself, particularly in older stock. It works in TSC, I cannot for the life of me fathom out why in TSW it is down to the driver. It is possibly the biggest immersion breaker for me.
There were sessions in Trainz which had a guard whistle, it was just a are scripted thing, but nonetheless the fact TRS2004 was capable of this yet in certain situations yet nobody can be bothered at DTG to record or buy a guard whistle sound or record a "We're all aboard, close the doors." is mental. Also I think Trainz had a much smarter system for stations in 2004, from what I remember stopping points were aligned well and coach doors opened appropriately as needed. Meanwhile TSW has pretty iffy platforming placements, like I remember one service on Peninsula Corridor where you just stopped a mile out of the first station for no apparent reason. Also the "perfect" stops on Boston if you follow them for the full 500 points often mean you didn't have a coach on the handicap accessible portion of the platform, which seems like a big no-no to me. And odd bit of lack of attention to detail considering how much of a fuss DTG made about having those platform depicted. The only real thing I can't see so organically being fixed is gradients, but even so I have to imagine you could figure out a more organic way of dealing with it. Just spit balling but there is usually a second person in the cab with you already, it would be neat if they actually tell you about things like upcoming grades or speed restrictions. Having a "Hey we've got a grade, put on some more power" or "Speed limit coming, reduce speed to 30". That I think would be a neat alternative way of doing it, I would certainly prefer it, and it would help with hearing impaired players as well. Could also have the option of having the guard pull the emergency brake if you're doing excessive speeding, Don't see why DTG hasn't implemented something like this either, at least on some of the older traction with more dated safety systems.
A guards whistle in SoS, TVL, and NTP would have added that extra bit to them. It really would have given the routes more realism. You get the bell to inform you to close the doors, then you get a whistle to tell you to proceed. far better than that silly looking bar in the top left corner.
Because a "passenger stop" is only registered as successful when a passenger loading routine has been run through, and DTG implemented "passenger loading routine" as a timer between doors being opened and doors being closed, initially when doors started closing but soon thereafter doors actually locking closed TLDR : this is a quirk of how DTG have coded the game
I don't mind the timed stops, but surely they could code it so that when the bar has finished going round it tells the sim to close the doors and ring a guards buzzer or slam doors shut and then the guards whistle blows. If this is not possible then frankly it is ridiculous, that for what is supposed to be the more advanced sim, it cannot replicate a more realistic passenger loading experience as seen on the other game in the publishers own stable!
I'm with theorganist on this. Surely it could still be added to the routes that need them, so that the sounds are triggered when passengers have loaded, and doors have closed? It would certainly help those that drive with all on screen info turned off.
I doubt it's not possible, but it may be that changing this core behaviour would have knock on effects that you and I don't anticipate and would certainly impact on timetables and such Advanced in what way? Advanced can mean anything so maybe you're loading that word with more meaning than others would Just checking... do DTG's own routes exhibit the behaviour you're talking about or only AP stuff? I know AP have built in several features into their TSC routes but not many have been used in DTGs routes
Yes on DTG routes you don't have to close the doors yourself. It happens at the end of passenger loading. I meant advanced in terms of it being the newer simulator with new features. You wouldn't necessarily expect them to take a step back and for me a regression into a less realistic way of handling passenger loading is a step back.
I am a little late to this thread. I love driving without the HUD, particularly on the German routes because they are so well marked. I almost always start learning a route by driving it with a locomotive I am familiar with and keeping the upper left and upper right parts of the HUD in view, with the signal aspect blanked out. I take notes as I go, writing down the kilometer post locations of speed reductions and station stops and create a document that I will have beside me when I drive without the HUD. A few runs is all it takes to refine the document and then reach for the F1 key. I still turn it back on at station stops for timing. I find it quite rewarding getting to know a good route in this way and it makes even straightforward green light runs challenging. How I do this might not be best for everyone and certainly isn’t prototypical; sometimes I learn routes one emergency stop at a time. However, I would be frustrated if the game forced me to do it another way.
There are lots of ways in which TSW is a step back from TSC, mainly in how things work generally rather than more advanced graphics etc (which is also debatable) Haven't played TSC in a couple of years so just checking. So on North Kent Lines and other DOO routes you don't have to close the doors yourself? Or is it per line etc
Well on DOO routes you probably do have to, the only DOO trains I have driven are AP ones which do have the facility to close them yourselves. Certainly on the more period stock the doors close themselves after the loading sequence has finished.
Well I would expect DOO routes to work as intended. I don't play many modern routes in TSC. Most of the routes I play feature steam or diesel or electric and slam door stock or BR period second generation multiple units. Some of those do have a DOO setting, whether the DTG variants do I couldn't tell you. The fact is that TSC has the ability where it can finish passenger loading and shut the doors itself, without the driver having to unrealistically do it, often with a triggered audible or pop message/guards whistle etc. Which is not what happens in TSW.
