More Focus On Improving Sounds Please

Recording is about 1/4 of the work to get sounds working. They can get sounds from AP and still not have a decent output...

 

yeah just listen to Rivets 150.

 

I can’t listen to it anymore. It just breaks my heart to hear what they’ve done to that thing One of my favourite DMU’s ruined

 

Same here. I recently purchased WCL to test it out myself, to only refund it almost immediately.

Rivet have well and truly screwed the Class 150 up, both in the physics and sound department. Such a shame as it was one of my favourite trains to drive in TSC.

 

Yeah they clearly got their feedback. For me the 150 is also too generic. No working guard panels, similar to the br cl.101 the 150 has a "local" start/stop functionality from the outside.
While dtg has implemented all this, rivet goes straight back to the tsxx cab only era.

The new swiss route is like the opposite, i see a true passion behind creating the luzern - sursee dlc. The flirt is not tsg level, but a solid train for tsw above the bare minimum.

Every tsw developer should know tsw needs good rolling stock. The sim is on a point where its possible to make routes busy and with a high variety.
So going the extra mile in locos is definetly worth it, since your loco might appear in a other dlc.

Right now the 150 is a nice little a.i train, but im not interested in driving it to get a half hearted experience.
I hope rivet makes an update for wcl, the route and its trains have huge potential.

I suggest to make it similar to arosa with a planned expansion pack. So the wcl update is free for everybody, but the expansion dlc would add the falmouth branch or more of the china clay section. Devs really need to start using the potential of their routes..

 

Have you tried this?
https://www.trainsimcommunity.com/m...d-2/c20-sounds/i2386-class-150-mini-sound-mod

I don't have the route but I use a lot of sound mods for other trains and it totally changed my audio experience as in many cases the mods are far superior to the stock generic sounds.

 

I know how you feel since that's the same way I feel about the Br 204. Beautiful loco with lots of potential but absolutely ruined (for me) by the completely wrong physics.

 

Rivet = cheap beans, 10p cola, cold chips, leaking roof, smelly socks

Fix the 150

& be = A double 99 with raspberry ripple, the sweet smell of a weekend, James Brown's funky shoes

 

Thank you - yes it’s a very slight improvement but still so much missing, the physics are just off the wall. Totally un-drivable unfortunately

written the thing off as I don’t expect rivet care enough to actually listen to the feedback provided if I’m honest

 

Where the hell is DTG on this thread? This topic keeps popping up, and they are nowhere to be found. This is a BASIC issue, and while the modding community has stepped in to fill the gap (huge thanks and bravo to you all!!!), as many have stated, the game shouldn’t have to be modded in order to function well. Come on. OpenBVE has better sounds in some cases.
Fix. This. Please.

 

Unfortunately it seems they just choose to ignore threads like these and just want to respond to one’s which are ‘non-critical’. Despite the popularity of the thread, there hasn’t been a single response from DTG. Says it all really.

Sound has been a major issue with TSW since day one, and it needs serious improvements, yet there’s been little to no commitment in doing so.

 

Oh wow,I didn't know that they made these changes. Looks like this will be the last time I am going to buy their product, until to us what the community wants, I am going to stop buying their product.

 

What I've actually found surprising is that they do get authentic sounds. So for example the flange sounds on the class 377, 387 and the Budd M3A to name a few. Yet they aren't implemented properly. Some sound mods like the ones for the Budd M3A and the Bombardier M7A EMU are just sounds that are were in the sound files of these trains but weren't implemented in the game. Why can't DTG implement these sounds themselves if they already have them. It makes no sense and makes it feel like they are just rushing the product out the door.

 

I mean if they did respond, they will probably pull the "We understand your frustration" LOVE.

 

That’s an interesting point. If the sounds are there and actually exist in the game, why the feck aren’t they used effectively? I can’t get my head around that. Maybe I’m dim?.

 

I'm sure it'll be a limitation excuse only 32 channels, consoles will stop working etc, or some such thing. roll-on UE5. Oh, wait that'll still have limited channels.

 

For me DTG should stop trying to do the Audio and use companies like AP or others that show they ca mix sounds to a high level. If DTG still come out with 'we hope to get at a higher level' then they should stop doing their own sound until they reach that level. I'm sure customers would appreciate it.

 

For the zillionth time, AP does not mix sounds for TSW. They do no work in UE at all. All they do is provide raw sound files.

 

I didn't say they did I said they should do. AP have a proven track record in mixing sound and imo would do a better job than what we have at the moment. I do not see UE being a barrier to them.

 

AP have shown no interest in doing any TSW work. And, yes, even they would find dropping from 256 sound channels to 32 a challenge.

 

Didn't they say a while back in answer to a forum members questionnaire that they would be open to it if approached? Cold be wrong of course, would be a nice earner for them no?

 

Not to bump this thread up or anything but when can we expect some sort of reverb sounds in tunnels and cuttings, or the ‘roar’ of the track as it goes over steel bridges?

I cannot believe we still only have literally one ‘running’ sound of the train, for the entirety of its route. It’s like running a train through an empty field from start to end.

Surely it isn’t hard to set up reverb in tunnels by default, so you don’t have to manually add it to each and every tunnel when placing it? TSC isn’t perfect but it’s miles better at giving the correct terrain sounds based on where you are and/or what you are travelling over.

Sounds have and are being constantly neglected in TSW and it’s sad to see that there’s not been any push in trying to make them better/sound more realistic. I see no improvement to station ambient sounds either, as they quite literally sound like ghost towns.

Come on guys, you’ve had years to sort this out. There really is no excuse for the poor sounds anymore.

 

DTG need a new approach to sound. They need a system that can handle more sounds. It has to be the next core improvement even if it means all old DLC will need an upgrade to be compatible with it. That issue gets worse the longer they leave it. There must be plugins or systems available that will work with UE4 that can handle what is needed and they should be used, because DTG can’t currently fit all of the required sound into the game and have it work properly on all platforms. If there isn’t anything suitable available I’d be very surprised.

 

I agree, they have to use the oportunity to develop something like simmugraph, just for sounds. 32 channels might be enough for call of duty, but not for a simulation where accurate sounds and immersion are fundamental.

The sooner they start to solve this, the better. The amount of rolling stock is increasing, and ignoring this doesnt solve anything.

Sounds are connected with simmugraph as far i understood, so yes there will be a ton of afterwork when they consider updating every loco.

This is another perfect example of a short sighted decision, grew to a bold monster which probably cant be solved anymore by now.
The sound is a huge part of one pile out of the entire structure. If you finished the roof of a house you cant change the foundation by taking a rubber and pencil.

That, and only that is the true reason they keep shut about everything related to sounds (activly ignore threads). This major mistake by thinking 32 channels are enough, would mean going for a entire new sound approach. Good luck with rework all the simmugraphed locos.

As i realised the limits of tsw2 about sounds i got the point of a forum member 1 year ago : "they choose the wrong engine for tsw2..."

But looking at the limit, at least they get the best out of it whats possible. Nice to have real sound recordings etc.

 

The lack of enhanced movement sounds is only surpassed by DTG’s abject silence on the matter.

 

This. They have the tunnel reverb on Bakerloo (to a degree) and the same was present on TSW1 LIRR (why it disappeared in the Preserved Collection, I have no idea). To your point about bridges, cuttings, viaducts - this desperately needs to be developed and integrated. Not to belabor comparisons to OpenBVE, but OpenBVE has this sound functionality baked in.

Additionally, the flange sounds (or seemingly random lack thereof) need to be consistent with curves and the sounds themselves need to be varied as well (as opposed to recycled). To give one example out of many, the M3A on MNR barely makes a peep on the northern end of the route as the train passes through the interlocking from the yard to North White Plains, in addition to many other curves throughout the route. What gives? The M7A makes flange noises at the exactly the same points where the M3A lacks it. Great sound overall for both locos, but the lack of flange noise for the M3A makes it difficult for me to play, as the flange noise, to me, is one of the most rewarding and immersive sounds in any railroading simulation.

Perhaps a dedicated team to solve this issue? This hypothetical effort will certainly take time and resources, but speaking personally, my play time on TSW2 has dramatically decreased, as has my appetite to purchase new DLC until the issue has been, at the very least, acknowledged and addressed.

 

I agree with this and the others above. This situation they are in seems self inflicted in a way do to a lack of hindsight. They keep churning out DLC's yet don't go out to expand the core so to speak. These core updates don't really make major changes to the overall experience in my opinion. The update from 4.23 to 4.26 didn't really make much changes apart from really allowing current gen consoles to be on par to the PC version.

UE4 may have been a good decision, but if the limited sound issues are really the problem, then it shows dtg's lack of hindsight. It's kinda the situation with route extensions/mergers. If they extend routes or merge them, it may break many things and more work will have to be done to quell those problems. If DTG try to update every loco to add reverb and other sounds, alot of work would have to be done. The lack of hindsight is baffling but at least they try to get the best sound recordings that they can.

Although, there are routes like Bakerloo and LIRR that do have reverb sounds in the tunnels. There are routes that have track noise going through points and the screeching when going through curves so I don't think the 32 sound channel limit is part of the problem but more down to how DTG implement the sounds or in this case how DTG don't implement the sounds for some reason. Look at the sound mods for the M7A, M3A, Class 377/387. Those mods use sounds found in the files of these trains but for some reason aren't implemented in the final product.

It would be nice if DTG were to respond instead of ignoring and saying they will improve. Whilst they don't have to but they have had 5 years to improve in this area and frankly they seem to be going backwards

 

To me you can have nice looking trains but if the sound is lacking it takes away from the experience. I never got into TS1 but from some of the video's I have seen the sound seems superior. If the UE is at fault I wonder if DTG regret going down that route?

 

With TSxx of old there was a big deal made of EAX and routes were wonderfully immersive in their sounds then over a period of time it became all too much of a time-consuming pita for the devs and the flywheel policy at DtG, and routes correspondingly became sonically dead with an inexplicable addition to the core of joint sounds at every over and under bridge plus tunnels! But worst of all the deadness of the sonic world philosophy has carried on over to the TSW series, I am so glad that not only a modicum of community members but also Sam has raised the banner for better and more immersive audio as LM has pointed out. Real railways are noisy and sonically diverse.

 

No, because sound was never a priority.

 

TS1 or rather TSC as it’s now known, sound is far superior to TSW in just about every way. I took the Bossman Jubilee for a run down my Raquette Railroad that I made way back, full of sharp curves and gradients and the thing was bouncing and squealing away as it negotiated the bends. It actually conveyed the sensation of driving a 100+ ton mechanical beast along steel rails. Not just SoS, which so far as I’m concerned is going on the at least 50% off sale time list, but many TSW titles simply lack in the audio - Rapid Transit being the worst example.

 

As a lifelong (retired) sound engineer - having worked in the movies, as well as theatrical productions - I've always said good sound design, is as important as the graphical side. You can have the most amazing graphics ever, but without the sound, the immersion just isn't there. In my review of TSW3 I praised the fact that they had barking dogs etc, but it could be so much better. As I still have my little studio, I'd gladly do some sound work free of charge. If only I knew how to insert the sound into the sim, then I'd be able to make my experience a little better and, hopefully, share it with everyone else. I realise that this will probably remain a wish, more than a reality, but I do agree that sound can be so much better. It should be a priority, rather than an afterthought.

 

I presume you mean that you could make the base sound files better rather than implement them better (which is a completely different thing in a game setting)

 

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

DTG Protagonist. If you know that and can say it why on earth cannot something be done about it. I have worked in cabs and outside them in yards and on the line. Those sounds are so important and all my refunds have been to do with sound and I wait in hope to be able to re-buy them. One of the most glaring is the Rivett 1938 stock which i would love to own but it has no sound. Jasper has been promising that this will be addressed but it never is. The same goes for TSC. I have hundreds of pounds invested in both these simms and it is the lack of decent sound that ruins an awful lot of the content.

 

This is DTG. imo they have had a problem with sound in TSW from the start. When there is a noticeable improvement in sound you can bet it is down to third parties. And what you were hinting about putting your own sound in game is the real downer about TSW. If there was a decent editor for modders it would transform TSW but DTG lack the foresight and hide behind their licences.

 

Having good sounds in game first requires having good source material covering every single part of the train. Source materials can be from direct recordings, Armstrong powerhouse, a person with a horn collection for American freight or tsg. Dtg can't use YouTube or use a recording from a poor microphone. Sometimes they can go out and have someone professional record for them as seen with the 323 and one of the steam locomotives. Sometimes, it's not possible at all the record whether it's due to laws and regulations or safety or the toc simply is too busy or don't have time in their schedule to rent out a whole trainset for dtg to record. For example, db no longer allows people to come in and record their trains. Us freight railroads have regulations preventing sounds from actually being recorded. Then you have to look at the budget and time you have to implement the sounds. You can't have every single sound on a train otherwise it takes too long. Game development is already complex as is. Sounds have been improving slowly over time but there's still a long way to go

 

In addition to this...
And every action that you want it to perform... Want the train accellerating from 0 to notch 1, you have to record that. Notch 1 to notch 2, you have to record that. Notch 2 to notch 3, you have to record that. Notch 3 to notch 0. You get the idea
And then you have to implement the coding for that so that when a player does something in game that they likely wouldn't do in real life it doesn't mash it all up in a big mess.
Recording sounds isn't the same as implementing them in a game environment

 

Not really talking about train sounds per se, but the environmental impact a train makes, they are loud there are loads of sounds reflecting off a whole variety of surfaces, tunnels bridges walls even rushing through platforms and over crossings the sound dynamics change in cab noticeably. Aurally TSW is dead, you go and fire up Im Koblitzer Bergland (latest version) and see what a stunning job the author has done in this regard. Let's not forget that when DtG considered game engines sound was as low in priority as it could get. Also, BVE was graphically pretty awful, it made up for that lack with accurate and immersive audio.

 

Even the new Niddertalbahn… several old girder bridges should have a good old rickety rattle going across, but apart from the same somewhat tinny occasional track joint sound there is no variation at all. Even the short tunnel doesn’t have any reverb. You would have thought if anyone could overcome the sound limitations it would be the geniuses at TSG.

 

I can't understand why such fundamental railway sounds, like going over bridges and tunnel and bridge reverb are not present when they are in older sims.

I do think the sounds on TSW are better than they were, you don't generally feel like you wish there was an AP pack for example but there are some detail sounds which shouldn't be missing really.

 

The only route I thought I might have heard a bit of reverb sound going under bridges was on the PS5 version of SEHS. But that could just be wishful thinking.

 

Making sound for a train sim (no matter which) is a indomitable monster. Especially when you have to consider the economics of your products. And then the limitation the platforms give. Often people try to compare with some other games that have quite good sound but are not a simulator. That is not comparable. Sound on those games is often non-dynamic soundscape or just timelined sound with position triggers and looped regions. A audio environment for a train ist fully dynamic and needs appropriate recorded sound from any single dynamic element then. And of course, the already mentioned programming, what can be really intense and time consuming.

Reverb: Honestly, i have no real clue why it is not used in TSW. But i guess there is a reason. Probably a performance or platform compatibility reason. I can remember that reverb settings/activation on PS4 creates sound cuttings and overall disappearing sound. Remember the "BR155-sound-in-tunnel-dissapearing" discussion two years back or so? That was one of the problems i think. There is a new reverb type since a certain engine version, the convolution reverb. That's basically a DSP effect. But it needs impulse-response settings and they are not laying around like fallen leaves. And no idea what is about performance when using it on moving objects and large environments like we would need in TSW. I maybe can try it at some point when i find some time. But i'm nearly sure it will not work at all.

 

Well UE makes big claims for the ability of sounds in their engine, but it seems it is too hard to implement them in TSW due to limitations and the truly poor amount of channels available. Sounds seem to always be a bit of an afterthought for game engine developers? Pity really as the engine for TSC caters to over 200 channels, potential still for that game if DtG sort out the terrible core sound issues in the next core update.

 

Maybe it#s good for standard games, but not for a train simulator. Don't get me wrong. The underlying engine (the audio core) is quite good. But there are no further high-end tools and UIs to use it. For example the granular synth engine. Not that it is the best granular engine you can get these days, but also it needs a UI but there is no UI. It kinda works, but the results are not usable for a train unfortunately. The parameters you can set are not what you need to set for proper results. Every 100$ granular synth plugin (for DAWs and such) does a way better job. Granular synthesis is a key for using changing sound over a parameter (in our case mostly speed). For traction audio for example. With good granular synthesis you can record a train with a mic in the bogie and having only one sample for the whole range. Basically a simple "from-zero-to-max-speed" recording at full power. That then gets played back and looped automatically (not really but kinda) at each speed you want. It's like you would stop the forward movement in a song but not stopping the playback. The play-head position is driven by a speed variable. No loops needed (what is a pain to create, often impossible from the recordings we can get). The problem in UE4s granular engine is that it's too simple and the results are bad for train sounds. There are so much missing abilities to drive the parameters like the grain size, the grain fading, attack times etc. All these parameters need to be adjusted for each single speed or it starts sounding synthetic, like a normal synth patch (what the granular synth basically is for -> making musical synth patches from anything recorded ... what is really interesting itself).

Just one problem.

 

So DtG could invest in a plugin?

 

Sound design is a very big topic in the current state of the game. Sometimes the sound design is done quite carelessly. The samples themselves may be of high quality and sound good - but the picture will be very unbalanced. For example, on the BR-103 locomotive, engine cooling sounds very loud when it is running and is clearly out of the overall picture in terms of level. The same BR-110 sounds much better.

A separate topic is sound signals. Sometimes it seems that the developer throws any low-quality sound, just so that the signal is nominally present. Not at all puzzling myself with the pure information of the loop and the transition to the ending. I myself have done a lot of sound design in various projects and I can confidently say that it's a matter of a little time and effort: to find a suitable sample on the web, since there are a lot of them today, and to loop the loop correctly and make a smooth transition to the end.
I really hope that the people from DTG will read this and hold a briefing with their sound designers.

 

And there is the "problem" in your thinking. A commercial company can't use "found" samples from the web. They already have to licence the files. And as it is, often these people won't give a licence to a commercial developer at all. Just one poblem of lots of others to get to the correct sound.

And for the 103, the fans are way louder than on a 110. So that is correct. "Sounds better" does not mean that it sounds correct.

 

If i remember correctly, there is a reverb under the bridge right out of Dessau Main Station if you driving in Bitterfeld direction. (Should be the first bridge, but im not 100% sure on that).

I remember asking myself why it does appear there but nowhere else. Also im on PS4, so that seems to not be the problem.

 

There are actual Train drivers that have said before they will do the recordings for DTG but it seems this is rarely used. DTG have admitted before they struggle with sound and tbh they still do. Perhaps the source is adequate and the implementation is lacking? Saying that we have to give them excuses because it is a 'train sim' (which is another debate) is a bit lame as other so called 'sims' seem to excel in sound especially in different genres.

imo DTG should give the sound work to a company that can implement the sounds correctly.