Huge Tsc Update Due 27/4/23

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by nwp1, Apr 15, 2023.

  1. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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  2. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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  3. westcastlerail

    westcastlerail Active Member

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    From what I can tell, not only do I not get money back for a DTG route that does not work for me (Leeds Huddersfield) (still waiting for a fix to QD routing and Slaithwaite memory crashes), im expected to buy the route again to see if DTG have fixed the issues by having to buy the new TSC full price game again?

    (Which I don’t need as I get the core update free as I already own TSC)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2023
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  4. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    No. It gives you the same DLC you already own.
    In extreme rare cases, like the Wales routes with replaced branding, you might get different functionality.
    Ideally yearly editions should be using Complete Your Collection so that people who purchased them standalone aren't bitten so hard: not only having paid 30€ instead of 5-10, but also getting fewer routes for the same price, effectively a lesser discount.
     
  5. USRailFan

    USRailFan Active Member

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    Uh, no?
     
  6. westcastlerail

    westcastlerail Active Member

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    So if I don’t get the updated route as part of the update… how do I know if the fixes have been made?
    (Without having to buy the route again as part of the updated TSC when re-released?)

    Or is the route being sold again in the new version of TSC, presumably without any fixes, with all the well documented old faults still present?
     
  7. westcastlerail

    westcastlerail Active Member

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  8. IronBladder

    IronBladder Well-Known Member

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    The routes aren't being upgraded, it's a different set of routes that will be in the package.
     
  9. sparraboy

    sparraboy Member

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    That's funny because I read the official release note that the routes were upgraded versions of ones that went before. They were very proud to have re-worked these routes and the base code on the game. If you own the game already you will get the code update for free (too right we should) but the routes will be part of a package so you will have to purchase the 'new' route again to replace the bugged one, the reason they get away with this is because they have changed the code to the game therefore it is a 'new coded route' of a bugged old coded route. I suppose we should be thankful that they haven't asked us to buy an upgrade to the base game we have already invested many 000's into.
     
  10. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you could've got your information any more wrong if you'd tried..

    Can people not read anymore?
     
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  11. 390001

    390001 Well-Known Member

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    They can they choose to read certain parts then make there own versions up spread them on forums etc then when release comes these are the first people to kick off when its not what they assumed.
     
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  12. USRailFan

    USRailFan Active Member

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    Link?
     
  13. TrainsAreBest

    TrainsAreBest Active Member

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  14. bidibul#3139

    bidibul#3139 Active Member

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    To read or not to read... not to read!
     
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  15. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    "Route refresh" is the new name given and a way for the three bundled routes to be ... "refreshed" on the yearly re-release, this is just the new way of doing the TS2019 to TS2020 and so on..

    Refresh does NOT mean that any routes bundled or otherwise have been updated, revised, tweaked or even opened in the editor at all.

    The only revisions coming with this years release have been to the core game engine code and as of this release is mainly a clean up of unused code.
     
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  16. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    ^^This.

    I must admit, the first time I read it I read ‘route refresh’ as improvements made to the included routes, particularly as it is under the sub-heading ‘Route Refresh’. I’m sure it wasn’t designed to intentionally mislead, but I think calling it a ‘bundle’ or ‘included content refresh’ would have been a bit clearer.
     
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  17. westcastlerail

    westcastlerail Active Member

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    So as I now understand for existing TSC owners,

    - a refreshed TSC game is being advertised to buy, that as existing TSC purchasers we don’t need to buy to get the core update.

    - if we already own the previously released non in game DLC (ie Leeds Huddersfield!), the newly to be release refreshed routes haven’t been fixed, but may be more stable with the new core free update.

    - as existing TSC owners, we will see no tangible in game benefit of the core update.(this time)

    Simples
     
  18. 390001

    390001 Well-Known Member

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    In the article on the forums if you read it
     
  19. 390001

    390001 Well-Known Member

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    Correct if you own TSC you get the core update for free. If you don’t own the routes and want them then you purchase the “package”
     
  20. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    My only concern about this, is we have had core updates before which proceeded to wreck third party routes. I remember one of mine ending up with all the signalling links and signal numbers blanked.
     
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  21. Johnno124

    Johnno124 Active Member

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    Theres always that risk with rewriting code, but if the result is a more stable game then i think its worth the risk that a few third party routes need to be repaired as such. If we did nothing because of the risk then the game would have died long ago. No Gain without some pain.
     
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  22. smugstarlord#4202

    smugstarlord#4202 Well-Known Member

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    Don't want to sound sceptical but I remember when they upgraded TSW2 to U4 (different game, I know) and that's when the problems started for it. Hopefully this isn't going to be the same
     
  23. westcastlerail

    westcastlerail Active Member

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    I shall be switching steam to offline mode and turning off auto updates prior to the upate being released.

    Will give at least a week to see how it goes, before switching everything back on to allow the update, for the very reason you state above.
     
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  24. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I'm optimistic about the update - and I think it'll be opt-in with a launcher flag (like fastload was upon release).

    Looking forward to it. Well done DTG.
     
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  25. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    They seem to be well aware of this risk and will implement changes carefully frim what you can read about the core changes that they hope to include now and in the future. Still we will see.
     
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  26. westcastlerail

    westcastlerail Active Member

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    As well as third party routes, there also the hardware impact to consider, such as Raildriver.

    Also the TS Controllers Powerbrake handle and buttons from ATS.

    Wonder if any pre update testing would include making sure those hardware still work.
     
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  27. dolanbaker

    dolanbaker Active Member

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    I would imagine that if the hardware simply emulates the keyboard sequences in their function, there is unlikely to be any issues, if it uses feedback from the game, then It could be something to be wary of.
     
  28. buzz4567

    buzz4567 Member

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    I just have a word of advice. Backup backup backup. I have backed up my entire Steam folder to a external hard drive. It could save you hours of anguish if there are hiccups of any kind. At minimum back up your Assets and Content folders somewhere just in case.
     
  29. westcastlerail

    westcastlerail Active Member

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    Will a back up of the railworks folder be any use if the core of the game has been altered?

    Sorry im not technical enough to understand how it all works together - but can understand backing up the DLC as individual files to retrieve, but can you also back up the core game?

    As footnote - looks like our friends on TSW have had a fun time with the latest MML release.
    Probably means a batch of new players heading over to TSC in the not to distant future!
     
  30. gee

    gee Member

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    I'll be backing up Windows as well as my Railworks folder before the new core update. I will also be playing TSC offline from the 26th to wait and see if people are reporting any problems.
     
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  31. Projectoverseer

    Projectoverseer Active Member

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    People seem to be having doubts again.. Its DTG that's why simple as;).
     
  32. buzz4567

    buzz4567 Member

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    Come on. Microsoft does a update and spends the next two weeks issuing patches. Windows does a update and spends the next six weeks doing patches. Give 'em a break. I spose you would rather they just never do anything new.
     
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  33. Projectoverseer

    Projectoverseer Active Member

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    Yeah, But thing with that is DTG never seem to do the patches we all ask for.. but what I will give you is that TSC is my most played steam game at 869.6 hrs:).
     
  34. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I think the current update is something we all wanted for a long time now, no? A cleaner code and the first step to performance improvements. Performance issues due to the old game engine have been a problem for many years now.
     
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  35. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    I'm really looking forward - will make a second installation until I'm sure everything works. Can still revert by renaming the folders. As the Steam appmanifest will still think the latest version is installed, there should be no trouble in running different versions using one appmanifest file.

    I'm ready. :)

    TrainSim-Steve Will the current RailWorks64.exe still be accepted by Steam? It should - as this will be a big (welcomed) beta test for all of us.
     
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  36. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    To be extra sure, I recommend making a copy of your C: drive and making a system repair disk too. I'd also recommend running Windows on a virtual machine using Linux so that any glitches with the new version will be easily repairable.

    This is sarcasm. If I had the space I would back up TS but I don't see the point of going out of my way to do it. There is little to suggest the new update will corrupt assets or routes, and if older content is broken then you'll need to update eventually anyway.
     
  37. Shawmut

    Shawmut Member

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    Torf, what do you mean by a "second installation?" Can one actually have two installs of RW within Steam? If so, how?

    Dave
     
  38. buzz4567

    buzz4567 Member

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    No one actually ever answered your question. The answer is yes the core game can be backed up. Just copy the folder somewhere outside of Steam and re-name it something like westcastlerail_backup. That way steam will not alter it when doing the update if you need it because something goes wrong.
     
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  39. Brickrail782

    Brickrail782 Active Member

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    Would the internal Steam backup and restore feature work too?
     
  40. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Senior Producer Staff Member

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    Hi All,

    Thought I'd drop in here to clear up a few things:

    Incorrect. As always, any updates, whether that's for Core or for the bundled routes (if you already own them) are provided free of charge. We have never believed in charging people for fixing bugs and it is not something we will entertain at any point now or in the future. If you already own the routes featured in the refreshed package, then any updates will automatically be applied.

    The reason we do a refresh of the content package is to attract new players into the hobby, and/or provide a cost-effective way for our existing players to get our latest routes with a hefty discount over buying individually.

    Correct. The primary goal of this core update is entirely about stability - we can all agree that the current version of the game is much too unstable and crashes even if you look at it funny. We hope you'll agree that the new version of core is much more stable and you can spend many more hours in game without experiencing the dreaded "out of memory" error.

    I can assure you that we have tested the new core extensively with not just internally-developed routes but 3rd party routes too (and not just those on Steam either). In almost all cases (around 98%) there is improved stability when loading into 32-bit and 100% stability when loading into 64-bit.

    In the interests of full disclosure though, there are a few edge case concerns when attempting to play some routes in 32-bit because of two issues:
    1. Firstly, the way in which the route has been developed by not respecting certain texture/mesh size limits to manage memory loads.
    2. Secondly, the underlying core code improvements has very slightly increased the memory loads that is now sufficient to push the software over the edge for some of the more demanding routes.
    However, we have confirmed that simply loading into 64-bit resolves the above issues entirely. We have fed back to the developers directly on how to mitigate crashes experienced and we will be building in some additional checks into the next version of core to avoid crashes from happening at all. My goal is so that the software never crashes, no matter what you throw at it and we are very close to that goal.

    Since we have not touched anything to do with the external controller API, there is zero impact to hardware compatibility. I have personally tested RailDriver and TS Controllers and have found no issues at all.

    Not entirely sure what you mean by "still accepted by Steam". If you're asking whether remote installations on the same PC will still work in the same way they do now, yes, as far as I know they do. We have updated the Steam API so there may be some user-specific things we've not been able to test internally. However, we will be watching for feedback so just let us know if anything isn't working right and we'll get those prioritised for fixing.

    Hope this helps.

    Best, Steve
     
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  41. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    Such good news! Appreciate your work Steve.
     
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  42. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Great stuff Steve, only other thing I would add is what's the chance of the route editor getting some love and updates at some point. Have posted a few ideas previously, mainly terrain painting with a copy and paste feature for same.
     
  43. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Senior Producer Staff Member

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    Hi OldVern,

    There is always a possibility - at the moment, I'm deliberately holding off on any intrinsic improvements to things like the route editor until at least Phase 3. Mostly, that's because I want to get some performance overhead (more fps) so we can start doing some really interesting things like pushing up the detail levels and improving graphics, etc.

    The key is to get any thoughts written down and posted on the forums so that as I go through and catalogue all the improvements people want, we can start to build a map on what's most important to add, and when it gets worked on.

    Best, Steve
     
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  44. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Appreciate that Steve. There are a few QOL changes that can hopefully be made when the time is right. I do quite a bit in Trainz Surveyor too and inevitably compare the processes. Some things TSC does better and some things Trainz though the latter falls down pitifully on the driving experience.
     
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  45. Blazin

    Blazin Well-Known Member

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    Hi Steve. This isn’t a really technical question compared to what others have asked but I just want to know will all the deluxe edition bundles be sticking around after the core update and route refresh even with the new deluxe edition including the Flying Scotsman and ECML?
     
  46. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    Good news about stability gain !
    Hope that one day some love will be given to the UI : its not really suited for those that managed to have a big collection of routes or locos.
     
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  47. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Senior Producer Staff Member

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    Not 100% sure but usually the bundles are refreshed and may not be available after the update. If there's anything from the existing line up that you want, I would encourage you to get them while you can.

    I originally wanted to replace the UI entirely but, having looked at the cost of doing so, it was either the UI or multithreading. So, I chose multithreading. That's not to say that the UI isn't going to see some love, we are hoping to do some tweaks and improvements here and there as we go through the next phase - particularly around content management and the consist editor, and perhaps Quick Drive too.

    When we get closer to doing that work, I would like to get some ideas from you all on where we can make improvements that will be valuable to you all on the UI. So, watch out for that forum appearing as I'll be wanting all your ideas. I'm sure together we can get something we all want to see.

    Best, Steve
     
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  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Wash my mouth out but the TSW UI is somewhat better. I will add this once the UI thread goes live but as I popped it on Suggestions the other day will just reprise... A quick play feature or randomiser like TSW would be great, as would a button on the main Drive page to resume your last played scenario without trawling through the lists.
     
  49. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for these answers. I think most will agree that multithreading, performance and stability are a must and will bring some futureproofness to the franchise and even more nicer/bigger routes to us.
    For UI we will wait for your thread:) with ideas. I suppose that "simple" things like a unique drive menu for both career and standard scenarios would be a start (some routes have only career, some only standard, some a mix).
    A way to class scenarios or routes, by names, by countries... So we can hide for exemple german and usa content to show only british.
     
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  50. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps standard and career scenarios should be kept as one list; I find it quite annoying to jump between them to find something to play.
     
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