Midland Mainline - Leicester To Derby & Nottingham

This is Skyhooks First passenger route. They have just started to walk, so we can't expect them to run at this point.
With luck, and they haven't been taught by DTG the release and forget attitude? When they start feeling a bit more confident, and gain the experience, they will release route extensions and loco' dlc's?
Which I hope that they do.

 

Yet they're still expecting you to pay £30 for it...

 

Wait for a sale if you aren’t happy…. Don’t have to pay £30, your choice. Pay £30 for a route you don’t believe is £30 or wait until it’s reduced.

 

I wouldn't buy it under any circumstances to be honest. If it were at all possible I'd happily hand over my TSW collection to someone who would appreciate it because I've long since passed the point of no return. I'm annoyed I've wasted so much money on it frankly.

 

You don't have to pay £30 for it at the moment on steam it is £26.99 although it isn't a huge discount I suppose.

Some routes have been reduced in sales a couple of months after release so you might not have to wait long.

 

That's true. Though that will be down to DTG wanting their cut

 

Some routes in TSW3 look very good, almost real li

Yes they have but I'd like to see it done with ALL routes not just some, they need to increase the ai traffic using those extra services too. NY-Trenton was very shabby and seemed more like an empty branch line than a busy ML. Even one of their best releases; London Commuter only really had the Electrostar in 2 variants/colour schemes as playable, though the ai traffic rescued it and it turned out very good, except for how empty Clapham Jct. looked. In TSC that important station has an almost full complement of services, I get that TSW is a much newer game, but that is what TSW need to be aiming at.
Releases like Cathcart Circle and Birmingham Cross City, though acceptable, were a little one dimensional. Obviously if there is only one train on the route then they can't do much about it, except perhaps choose routes with more variety for better immersion.

 

I think you will find it would have been £30 whoever produced it!

 

We are getting quite a large variation in starter packs on xbox tbf which while it's not a dedicated dlc sale (maybe some day LOL) they are quite nice and cheaper than stand-alone routes. I got TVL and all its dlc in one of them for TSW 2 very cheap as a result.

 

Thanks, corrected. I appear to have inadvertently triggered a JT v Skyhook debate, morphing into TSC v TSW. Apologies…

 

That's what forums are for, nothing wrong with explaining that TSC 3rd party content creators tend to put more effort into scenery. It appears the timescales for the flagship TSW3 releases are considerably less than the TSC ones and that's seemingly where the issue is.

 

I don’t quite know if this is the right place, but it seems like there’s already a livery for the mml HST on creators club

oh, and here’s the link to it:
https://creatorsclub.dovetailgames.com/mods/86804

 

That's due to modders being able to make their own models using the editor. We already saw these in the past like that 111 i believe that was uploaded on creators club a while back.

 

This might be a silly question, but if you're completely out, why spend any energy being on the forum? I'm not passing any judgement on your opinions, nor suggesting they're not valid etc - it just seems to me, being on these forums surely won't be making you happy on any level?

 

Given what Tom, Alex and Matt said on the livestream, I suspect if track isn't already laid, we won't see extensions. Hence why the depots and yards/ power station loop is in now.

Hoping we see the first route to have dlc trains added though. Would be nice to have a 222 and new freight loco after just the 66.

 

A 222 and a new freight would really be nice

 

Three more sleeps !

 

Beta testers can use the new locos in the creators club. But I'm sure we're not all daft enough to publish them.

 

A part of me is still expecting to see an announcement on Monday saying that is PS5 users will be delayed in being able to purchase it lol

 

£30 for their product they worked hard to make. They aren't a charity case.

 

I’m really sorry, I genuinely don’t understand your point. Are you saying that it’s ok for any given product to be of poor quality because someone somewhere worked to make it?

 

No, but let's be clear what my thinking is;
• It's their first UK Route.
- New Signalling Systems
- New Safety Systems
- New Assets needed
- New Trains to make/work with
- Need new reference material
• It's their first passenger route
- New form of timetabling
- Learning the mechanics behind it
• It's actually not terrible, for a first try. Scenery across the board is quite decent - some stations are questionable but nothing bad.
• The 158 and HST seem really good.
• They (as said on stream) have been working on this since before TSW3 came out - so that is, at least, half a year...
• It is very clear that the Devs tried to make a good route, and did pretty well, all things considered.

Oh, and finally.
High or Low Quality, £30 is the standard price, and the Devs need to eat.
Hop off the negative train for once.

 

There’s no need for that. We’re allowed to have different opinions you know….

Now, another genuine question. I presume each 3rd party developer doesn’t have to re-develop aspects of the game that DTG have already done? So I would have thought that signalling, safety systems, timetabling etc are already taken care of. If that isn’t the case that seems crazy and that’s a question for DTG to answer.

Assets etc. I see barely any new assets at all apart from the stations. There is the clock tower going in to Nottingham, the tunnel and bridges just outside Loughborough and perhaps the cooling towers but virtually everything else is re-used. I see no custom bridges etc or anything particularly area specific.

Finally rolling stock. They look ok, yes. Probably the best part of the DLC. However, the HST is a re-work of an existing loco and the sounds were provided by Armstrong Powerhouse. Good rolling stock but created entirely from scratch? I don’t think so.

Finally, for me at least it comes down to value for money. Does this look like it’s worth £30? In my opinion it isn’t. £30 might be the standard price, but we all have to make an individual call as to whether or not we believe that something is worth that much. If you believe it is then more power to you. I don’t believe it is and will continue to say so, and more importantly why I believe that to be the case. We (just about) still live in a society where differing opinions are allowed and it does us all good to listen to them sometimes.

 

quite ironic, considering your earlier comments.

Signalling and Safety Systems still have to be added on a route-by-route basis. It's not a one-time thing to develop. Yes, the code and architecture of the system is there, but I don't imagine it's too easy to implement, considering how it interacts with both the Dispatcher and Timetable mode.

Speaking of timetabling - again, this is not easy at all. I'm not a dev so I don't know the exactly details, however it involves extensive research, and then you have to try and implement it, without causing a traffic jam of trains at red lights. Also, passenger timetables have different mechanics/instructions from a freight one, so, again, Skyhook had to adjust to that.

Stations are generally considered one of the hardest parts to make in a route - and with this route having three major termini, I doubt that was an easy task. Granted, a lot of existing (I wouldn't say generic for all of them) assets have been reused, however they still feel like what this route should have. As I believe was said on stream, and commented above in this thread - Skyhook went for the Midland Mainline feel, not strict photorealism, which is very understandable for a first try.

The 158 certainly fits that category. The HST may be a modification but it's hardly clicking a couple of buttons; Job done. Considering it's got a new cab, a new interior for the coaches, a new soundset, and so forth, it's quite a good undertaking. Also, if you have a good recording of the train's sounds - you still have to implement them correctly. (Albeit, Dovetail did this - but it doesn't detract from the DLC's value.)
Tell me, how did the AP Sounds on the Class 150 sound?

 

Noted a couple of signalling issues in the vid..

1:30:00, green light with calling on lights illumated at same time

1:30:09, red light with red shunt signal lights illumated on the signal post. The calling on lights should be clear.

Looking forward to the route,although I've a feeling it'll be a green light fest given the lack of freight traffic to intertwine with the passenger traffic.

 

What earlier comments?

 

Mixing threads here, but there's some in the MML TSC v TSW comparison thread of yours.

(No comment about my other points?)

 

If we had an editor, I feel we wouldn't be seeing much of these slightly heated discussions - we could just go in and change things ourselves after release. For me, speed signs!

 

Still haven't a clue what you're talking about, sorry.

What do you want me to say about your other points? I've already given my view on it. The only thing I would add is that Just Trains managed to model all the stations (and more) on the same route in much more detail, as well as many custom buildings, bridges etc and sold the end result for £19.99 to a market we can only assume is a fair bit smaller than TSW's. Fair enough, that didn't come with any bundled rolling stock so perhaps the price of £30 is justified for this version, but only if the rest of the route was up to spec. It isn't. From listening to those that do it the cost in making a route generally comes from the research, modelling of assets, then the time putting the end product in to the game. If Just Trains can do it (and by 'it' I don't mean sell for £19.99) then why not SkyHook? I would also say that even if they didn't model specific assets, that shouldn't stop them placing proper line side fencing, cable trunking, grass, flowers and all the other trackside structure that you can see in the images from TSC. Those assets exist, because they were all over GWE and the foliage side at least is there on SEHS, BCC etc. Saying they are modelling the 'feel' of the route is a cop out.

Clearly we'll have to agree to disagree here. DTG publish this game, and the quality of the content varies wildly from product to product. We're not talking about your child who has had a first go at painting a picture, we're talking about a software house who are charging people for a product. To say 'it's ok that it's not up to spec because it's their first try' is fine if that's what you genuinely believe. I don't, and make no apologies for that. You're suggesting we should cut them some slack because a passenger timetable is different to a freight timetable and therefore somehow harder. Really?

If SkyHook were struggling to meet the level required of them DTG should be stepping in and helping, making sure that the product with their name on it meets a certain standard. Matt said as much in a thread from a few weeks back, although unbelievably a consistent standard is something they still aspire to rather than are actually doing. At 6 years in to TSW, and with God knows how many years of TSC development behind them is that really good enough? Again, I don't believe so.

Finally, the implementation of AP sounds on the 150 wasn't anywhere good enough. I'm not sure what your point is though? I mentioned the AP sounds in the context of them not having to go out and record a locomotive (time consuming and a cost) as they had quality source material provided to them.

 

erm… not sure if anyone’s noticed this yet?

 

Good spot, and a couple of others, shunt signals showing double reds on a main signal post, also calling on lights illuminating on a green main signal aspect. Hopefully should be easy to rectify.

 

I’ve been signal hunting and said double green signal has been bugged. Hopefully shouldn’t be too long until it is fixed and the patch makes it into the public build

 

great to hear, genuinely so happy you’re involved in the beta testing now

 

Thanks. We’ve had a lot of feedback, both internally and externally/publicly, from you guys, and have a lot we want to add, fix and improve.

I can’t give you a timescale or promise that all these things will be fixed, however rest assured everything is being seen and checked over.

No doubt we’ll get more feedback once the route is out publicly

 

Not sure how others feel, but for me, having somebody like londonmidland on the inside letting us know that everything has been seen and actively championing fixes makes me feel a HUGE amount more confident about getting this route (having already pre-ordered).

 

Speed signs seem to be auto generated so it would be track editing needed, and don't forget that you'd only be able to publish to PC as console doesn't have a channel for outputting edited content

 

It has to be said, how effective actually is the beta team? With the amount of glaring issues that we've seen in this preview it makes you wonder what's going wrong. Do they not listen to you? Or are you all blind and fail to see all of these problems? I guess we'll never know.

 

Trust me. A lot DOES get seen and reported. I’ve submitted over 200 individual reports myself.

However, the more that is reported, the bigger the ‘list’ gets. At this point, you have to prioritise what actually needs fixing for release, such as service(s) not working quite right, with the other issues fixed for a future patch.

From the outside, I can see how it can look - how could they not have spotted x, y & z issue, with it glaring at you right in the face. But the reality is that we’ve most likely already spotted the issue and reported it, with it just awaiting its ‘turn’ to be fixed.

Hope that helps.

 

I do find these comments about beta testers not doing their jobs rather insulting towards the testers ,and yes you are entitled to your opinion. But yes not only do the beta testers test, check the routes and locos / rollingstock but also the Ambassador's also submit reports as well. And as londonmidland states you then have to start prioritising what of the more serious bugs gets fixed first. I'd say a good 75% of the bugs that the community picks out have already been logged by Beta Testers and or the Ambassadors.

Hentis

 

I understand why you see it that way but to us not in the know this is what it looks like. We don't know the inner workings and to hear DTG always harp on about the beta team but we don't see the fruits of it, it's frustrating.

But it's great to hear that it's not a problem with the beta testers but a problem with DTG not putting the work in. Keep up the good work testers.

 

I remember a notice at work when I started many years ago it went: "if you don't make mistakes, you don't make anything". I wonder how many on here are 100% perfect at their job? I know I am not perfect whether it is my day job or as a musician (as I proved to myself this morning). .

 

I'm not even 100% perfect being a bloody human let alone at my job.......... dam you alien parents.............

 

While I appreciate everyone involved in the making of a route experience (from the devs to the testers and modders ofc) something doesn't work quite right with this type of testing, or maybe developing, if it leads to content with so many issues that there isn't time to fix them. Has it become a new accepted standard, to put out content because of time pressure and expecting it to be full of bugs that will (or even sometimes will not!!!!) get fixed in the future? Why don't change the way you develop and test, to catch those bugs and errors earlier before the get buried too deep in the code (I maybe be wrong but I recall you stating something along these lines when announcing TSW3-changing the way you work)? This way instead of releasing content that has 2 big issues and 15 small bugs and promising patches and fixes that come in batches, you release it with 2 or 3 bugs and fix those once in a logical time span . I know it's easy to just point and comment but it's evident something somewhere doesn't click. Even if it's an outside developer, is it impossible to check on their work in a regular basis? I'm probably wrong but I get the feeling that all the checking and testing is being done together with us at the streams which is much too late.

Cheers

 

I have all Routes and DLC, and it's 208 GB

 

That definitely isn’t the case. A lot of the things you guys saw on the livestream have already been bugged and is awaiting a fix. Things are constantly moving.

Though it’s always helpful to have an extra pair of eyes so if you guys see anything which needs bugging, please report it here or additionally post it on this thread.

If anyone is local to the area, things like where stop board positions at stations should be placed and stuff like that would be really useful too.

Thanks.

 

I agree that the development timeframe is inconsistent with quality. But I fear the schedule is set by people way, way above londonmidland's (or Matt's) paygrade.

 

Back to important questions, working elevators?

 

Is Leicester LIP depot populated with old BR locos? From what I saw on the stream, they didn’t show much of the area around Leicester station…

 

I'm from Leicester and whilst from what I've seen of the station so far, it looks reasonably accurate. Didn't see the ugly blue building though.

 

With TSW, dtg had the chance to not also start by scratch with new, better and enhanced content, but also improve their development process.

Rather quickly the first trains / locos with multiple versions appeared. (Cl66 gwe, cl66 ecw, cl377...). They didnt manage to improve their development process to have 1 updated version for players.

Now with all the dlcs from 5 years (and the bugs of the rushed content), they are in such a mess which bugs and loco versions, they would need to pay a full team to fix those. On top the state of clearly rushed content.

Well as a customer, spent money to have all dlcs, for me with trenton they crossed the line. I made the decision of stop buying dlcs for a long while and get all of them 6-9 months later on heavy sale.

Im still operating everything on win7, so i guess im running out of time too.