Time To Reveal The Tsw "vision"

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by phil.elliott, Apr 19, 2023.

  1. phil.elliott

    phil.elliott Well-Known Member

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    I think it's fair to say that the past 12 months have been a bit turbulent. Ironically, I've probably played more of the game than I ever have, which to be honest is down to the excellent TSW Tracker's motivation (some will understand why, others won't) - but since I joined the forum in August 2020 this feels like the most negative phase.

    On the one hand there are the cumulative issues over a longer period of time with past DLCs or core issues, for example (sample, not exhaustive list by any means):
    • GWB services buffer derailment in journey mode
    • Clinchfield consist issue meaning impassable red light on one service
    • Trackside assets (eg fences missing, blank areas)
    • Signals not working as they should
    • Loco issues, eg class 150/2 top speed issues
    • Physics issues, eg steam pressure valve
    On the other hand, new DLCs releasing with quickly-identifiable issues that cause a degree of dismay and result in negative reviews, refunds and heated discussion on the forums, especially:
    • Birmingham Cross City (empty hub stations, only one new loco)
    • Scotail Edinburgh-Glasgow (empty hub stations, only one new loco
    • Left Rhine (visual issues)
    • NY Trenton (signalling and other issues)
    • Midland Main Line (timetable, visual issues)
    And both of these threads in the context of a cost of living situation and higher price points for both locos and routes. There are plus points - not everything is negative by any means (Nidderthalbahn route, Class 323, 158 locos, for example) - but general trend seems to be that the snowball is gathering pace.

    This leads to two issue paths primarily:
    1. Firstly, what is the strategy behind releasing DLCs probably 4-6 weeks too early (on the assumption that most issues are caught by the beta team at least)
    2. Secondly, what is the long-term strategy for TSW?
    Point 1 seems like the most egregious issues, since it seems to be repeated for most new releases, and while schedules are important, the community is left feeling as if release quality is coming second to... well, let's call it the perception of management/accountancy requirements. I think most people on the forums are reasonable enough to understand that the complexity of modern games means that nothing releases 100% free of bugs, but another 4 weeks of polish seems like a fair ask.

    Point 2 has become increasingly an issue since the release of TSW3, and leads to really important questions that shape the context of TSW as an ongoing and evolving project.
    • Is there enough focus on fixing existing issues, or why is it okay that some paid DLCs have been left in a poor state for months in some cases, years in others?
    • What does this say about confidence in TSW going forwards? In general it is being eroded, and the most reasonble forumites are becoming disillusioned - which is a shame, to say the least.
    • What of the future? Broadly, what can we expect from TSW in the coming months/years? Or, put another way, what is it that we are investing in when we support new editions of TSW and new DLC releases?
    At this point I think the throwaway "if it's not on the roadmap" phrase is becoming somewhat insulting - partly due to leaks or other things (such as Steam DB entries, route codes, etc), and partly because the growing number of questions need some good answers if the sentiment around TSW is going to change direction.

    Here are some for starters, around the big picture:
    • What is the vision around editions of TSW - and what is the context?
    • Does the TSW project rely on new editions (eg TSW 4, 5, 6) with new features in order to sustain funding for ongoing core development?
    • And does that speak to forced schedules for release, or where does the balance lie (between need for income, and confidence on release quality)?
    • NB regardless of overall DTG earnings, every project needs to break even and move into profitability at some point in order to be justifiable, so where is TSW on this journey?
    • What is the vision around DLC release consistency (eg feature checklist), backwards compatibility (eg core updates) and QA/testing?
    • NB for the latter, it is great to see the beta testing team contributing, but if they aren't able to do so in a meaningful way before release candidates are locked, then you're basically hanging them out to dry.
    • NB2 QA for most games isn't too difficult... but QA to the level of knowledge about locos and routes that the community expects is basically impossible to outsource. So this does not have a quick or easy solution.
    • What is the vision around integration of future DLCs - and by this I'm not talking about combining routes to create networks, but more around expectations of layering, filling empty hub stations, timetable attention to realism? Not to mention cadence of release, and variety of locations, etc.
    Lots of words there, but these are the kinds of things which I believe need to be addressed in a kind of State of the Union talk at some point. I'm sure almost everybody wants to see a bright and positive future for TSW - so give us something to get behind.
     
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  2. FredElliott

    FredElliott Well-Known Member

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    OT, but we need more Elliotts
     
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  3. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I agree that I think DTG do need to tell us what their thoughts are going forward particularly in trying to stop each release becoming contentious. I don't think anyone would expect no bugs but then a route releases with numerous issues, some which do make you wonder how they escaped the eyes of the testers, to contradict that statement I think it is probably not as easy to develop and release DLC as we might like to believe.

    Like you I have been playing TSW more (in the last six months for me since TSW3 and Cross City) than ever but I am finding it more and more frustrating. The new MML route is a case in point. Looks nice, the trains are very well done but it is really a little on the short side and the timetable is totally underwhelming and not realistic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2023
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  4. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    If people continue buying largely unfinished DLC for 35€ and then keep complaining, it's not completely DTG fault.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2023
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  5. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    DTG can and has said all the stuff we want to hear in the past. Then they turn the stream off and do the ‘sucker dance’. Their words are totally meaningless. All the negativity in the forums, the poor reviews on steam and nothing has really changed (except things have gotten even worse).

    Fortunately, those on steam can try a route and then refund it. Console players unfortunate enough to buy a route in good faith are screwed as soon as it’s downloaded. It’s not fair for DTG to treat people this way.
     
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  6. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with this post, I don't like how the 'cost of living situation' keeps getting dragged up.

    Purely and simply, people have to eat and companies have to keep the lights on. Running the servers, computers and other things required to develop games requires insane amounts of energy. As do the staff actually making them.
    If it's costing us more, its costing them more too.

    It's easy to just say, if it costs more, we demand more.

    But, nobody is saying because bottes of soft drink or bars of chocolate that have nearly doubled in price, we should get a better quality product. so why is it acceptable to apply that logic here?

    I'm not defending them, I'm just asking why this logic always seems to get applied.

    I do frequently ask why updates or patches for even the most minor of issuss take months, such as the 150/2, which rivet are now re-investigating.
     
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  7. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think the thing is that yes most DLC has issues, although much has been fixed but it can be very good and immersive and yet in the next moment something is released which is a disappointment.
     
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  8. phil.elliott

    phil.elliott Well-Known Member

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    You're correct in that the company's costs of course go up as well - but in the context of the value proposition, an individual in a strong economy might consider the move from £25 up to £30 okay... but when their own spare cash is being eaten away (in some cases quite dramatically, eg cost of energy in the past year), that has an impact on whether they feel good about a purchase.

    I think you're right, though, that perhaps the more pertinent question is about what is expected/delivered for the additional amount - and the sense is that quality is not even being consistent, but I'm sure some would say it's declining.
     
  9. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    DTG is a private company. We are customers, not investors. As such, they don't have to reveal anything. If there's a "vision", a "masterplan", a "strategy"... they can keep it a secret, as is their right.
    The only thing we can do is vote with our wallets. You don't like the content? Don't buy it.
     
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  10. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    phil.elliott
    You certainly ask the right questions in the right place.
    Yet, I just seriously doubt that also the right people are reading, let alone answering them.
     
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  11. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    You're right of course they can keep it a secret as is their right, but by the same token they can share their vision and short/medium term plans for the title. Given the lackluster releases so far in 2023 I feel they need to do something to arrest the decline in quality and rebuild the trust with the community and this would go a long way.
     
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  12. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but this is a funny question.

    I think that by now most people should have realized that TSW is a "broken" piece of software because the foundations are not coded the "right" way.

    They will (and as commercial company should) try to still get as much money out of this broken simulator as possible (that's why DLCs get released one after another) until they move on to another foundation (not TSW4 but a real new game), maybe they already work on it...or until SimRail gets content for USA/Germany/UK.
     
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  13. TimTri

    TimTri Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this post 100%. It’s time to think about the overall state of TSW and the vision for the future. Essentially every release in the past ~8 months except Niddertalbahn had fundamental issues at launch. Also, features and patches/fixes that were promised years ago are being delayed indefinitely. There is something fundamentally wrong behind the scenes, mostly regarding scheduling and workflows.
     
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  14. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Well-Known Member

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    With the price of new DLCs reaching $40, why isn't the base game free? Given the amount of DLC releases, you'd think the base engine should be able to sustain itself.
     
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  15. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Because the content in the base game also required lots of hours to create so they should be paid for their work. Unfortunately nothing is free
     
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  16. heliq

    heliq Active Member

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    What is the meaning of their words? They have already apologized hundreds of times, promised to make it right, but everything is still there. Nothing has changed. So why listen to 101 apologies again?
    I haven't bought a single route for TSW 3 yet. With this quality and price increase, it's not my thing anymore.
     
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  17. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    It's quite obvious the problem stems from the dev team being asked to have a project done by x date and not having enough to time to complete testing and fix bugs found in beta before that date. And then to make things worse, the same dev team is probably asked to start a new project afterwards, hindering the ability to spend extensive time addressing bugs post release. Working on fixing bugs doesn’t yield revenue like releasing a new DLC does (at least in the direct sense). That's no excuse though.

    Back in the original TSW days, we’d get one route every 3-4 months alternating between UK/DE/US routes, and as a result there was probably more time dedicated to fixing bugs post release. And with TSW2 and the preservation team, it really did seem like DTG were making progress. Now it seems like a new DLC releases every other week (it really has felt that way since 2023 started) and DLC is abandoned the second it releases. Some of that is because partners are involved in development now, but it still seems like DTG are rushing releases more than they used to.

    I'm not saying we go back to only getting 3 DLC per year from DTG, but spending more time on each DLC could make a big difference. Look at Niddertalbahn. The TSG team said themselves that they spent a long time fixing issues and perfecting the route before release, and we saw what the end result was there.
     
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  18. hiromaru

    hiromaru Active Member

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    As for the some bugs, there is no help for it, but, as for the problem, the thing subject playing a game having too a long time to correspondence is good, but, anyway, time of the correspondence is long
     
  19. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    That's the thing with a niche product. You can be pretty awful, but if you're pretty much the only game in town you'll have at least some audience buying up the product. If this company was producing mainstream games they would have gone out of business a long long time ago. We've seen far better gaming studios shut down because they were in a more competitive space. I'm sure they'll keep hobbling along as they do with mediocre offerings and a small player base until the inevitable happens. A shame.
     
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  20. ctlee#2068

    ctlee#2068 Active Member

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    Nobody fixes what I bought.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2023
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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's like being married to an alcoholic.
     
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  22. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    A well thought out, succinct, appraisal of how things stand at the moment. Your point one is indeed for me, the 'most egregious', given the promises made but to date never kept, to fix issues the developers caused in the first place with other patches. I suspect this is probably causing the exact opposite to what the 'the perception of management/accountancy requirements' wants. Thank you for this piece, we can only hope DTG read it and follow up in an honest manner.
     
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  23. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    I haven't even bought TSW3 yet and until TSW2 is fixed, I refuse to buy any other DLC, even though there are other routes/locos for tSW2 I would buy if the promises were kept.
     
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  24. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    DTG’s vision for TSW…

    15757546-0968-4EFD-A761-F39F62CC2B2E.gif
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
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  25. ctlee#2068

    ctlee#2068 Active Member

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  26. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    The Vision for TSW? (Quick side note, i stopped being a dtg customer and dropped my entire tsw steam account into the trash as a final decision, and no its not about the money...).

    Since 2023 its clearly to rush out dlcs in a frequency that the 'disappointed' customer will get flashed & hyped just in the moment when another dlc gets 'leaked' and the cycle repeates.

    Im expecting peak forest to be the next desaster with a very very weak timetable. On top the weired ending points, makes it smelling of short cuts already.

    So yes, since i have the railroad in my daily work, for me it was the right decision of stopping with tsw entirely. Looking at it from 5 steps back, its such a mess with no vision and direction at all.

    DTG, you are just mastermind, let your customers pay for being beta testers.

    Not with me, this was my last purchais, and this is my last post.
     
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  27. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    We are currently at the yearly community explosion after all the "low development budget" releases since november (Niddertalbahn excluded). We just need to get 1 or 2 more "low development budget" releases in may and then we will start getting information about the summer release (ie the Rush Hour equivalent).

    The summer release will probably be good and also get extended support, so for a while it will seem like DTG is improving. Only to get back to the "low development budget" releases in the next november - may '24 period etc ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
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  28. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    Niddertalbahn good?
     
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  29. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    You’re spot on. You can bet your bottom dollar we’ll be sat here at the same time in 2024 having the same circular conversation.
     
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  30. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    And again I say it one more time: it's not completely DTG fault.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
  31. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Given the bug lists piling up I´m confident DTG will see the need for an "extended summer hiatus for bug fixing". And just like last year .....oh wait!
     
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  32. brickmaster#7638

    brickmaster#7638 Well-Known Member

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    Well I my opinion it is an beautiful route made by people who really wanted to make the best.
    Heck, I’d even say that it’s worth the full price!
     
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  33. owenroser19

    owenroser19 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Most of the people that moan about this game still buy the DLC, as so no matter how much you dislike it, DTG have already won because they have your money.
     
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  34. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I've bought discounted TSW3 with only the german route included in January 2023 I think. Played 4 hours, saw that TSW3 was the same as TSW2, parked TSW3 since then. That's it.
     
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  35. owenroser19

    owenroser19 Well-Known Member

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    I’m much the same, I’ve only purchased Cross City and Mainz - koblenz but haven’t played masses of either.
     
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  36. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The scenery is awesome, and the 628 is well modeled, sounds great and has realistic physics.

    There are some bugs, but I dont think any of them will stop you from enjoying the route. Maik has a good record of fixing any bugs found in previous content, so I'm confident he will do it again.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I think I can say with confidence that Niddertal is the best German route since Riesa-Dresden.
     
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  38. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    That comment would be hilarious were it not the damn truth! Still, I smiled ....................
     
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  39. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Now, after reading your post and accepting the truth of it, I am extremely depressed.
     
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  40. Nathan Kemp

    Nathan Kemp Active Member

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    Good Evening,
    Well i could not agree more with this post. I am fed up to the back teeth with the game, the crashes and the lack of updates and the list goes on.. DTG will never learn from their mistakes until people stop buying the new content. We need to hit them where it hurts. They feed us BS from one hand take our money from the other, and then laugh at us like we are idiots. The so called road maps are a complete and utter waste of time, nothing changes. DTG can talk the talk but ya can't walk the line. DTG you need to take you heads out of your backside and wake up, get a grip and do something about it.
     
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  41. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    There was a thread on the tsc forums about where a route had been awaiting an acknowledged fix for four years now. Madness
     
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  42. malikrthr

    malikrthr Well-Known Member

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    Perfect example. Look at Long Island Railroad. The LIRR M7 has a glitch with the deceleration propulsion for approximately 6 months and has not been fixed and there is a pending small Long Island Railroad Update that has been on the roadmap for 2-3 years now. It's crazy why a small update is taking so long to roll out. For America's busiest railroad, that sure is not represented in TSW. It feels very empty with at most 1-3 trains you encounter during the run, It seems this route in particular has been put on the backburner and forgotten about

    Also, look at the NY-Trenton Route. while scenery between Trenton and Newark is good. it makes me wonder why the NYC skyline was removed. Makes absolutely no sense and the clipping in Penn Station with a few of the platforms and pillars should not happen. It took a modder to fix the issue with the pillar. I don't know why DTG couldn't have fixed it.

    I get it, there is a schedule that has to be followed with producing the routes but if there are so many bugs, why not just delay it until most of the bugs are ironed out. It's time we get the quality of content that we as the Train Sim community are asking for. While TSW graphically is impressive, it seems that TSC has the upper hand with being an overall better simulator. TSW has the potential to be better than TSC but the amount of effort put into the DLC compared to older DLC's from TSC, speak for itself
     
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  43. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    When you say "TSW vision", this is what I think about...
     
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  44. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Dresden-Riesa and London-Brighton were peak TSW in my opinion. The recent Niddertalbahn was peak TSW from a scenery perspective, but DTG doesn't get any credit for that. Ever since the Rush Hour releases, it seems like quality has gone down hill. DLC riddled with bugs, old DLC being abandoned in favor of releasing new content, and lack of consistency with promised new "features". With TSW3 especially, it seems like the procedure is release, forget, move on to the next route.

    Even the promised "new" features of TSW3 are a mess. The dynamic passenger clothing is a complete disaster. Everyone wearing vibrant colored clothes and backwards ball caps is not realistic in the slightest. Not to mention the passenger system is still completely broken with everyone getting off at the first stop and the train being empty the entire rest of the run. "Dynamic" weather is a mess and always predictable. (clear --> fog --> rain every time). And the one genuinely good feature TSW3 brought us, 3D snow on the platforms and track, appears to not be implemented on the recent releases. What's the point of introducing a new core feature if future routes aren't going to have it?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2023
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  45. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    What's ironic is that DTG claimed to fix the propulsion sounds on the lirr m7 where the proplusion would cut out in the rear 4, 6 and 8 cars but that issue was never fixed as it still happens.

    I don't think tsw has much of a vision other than to pump dlc in a messy state just to make a quick buck
     
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  46. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    That is my favourite thread, and is about a TGV pack. One which won't be being given away for free this month, as after 4 years of waiting for an update - that was definitely in development - they just pulled it from sale altogether. One to put infront of Focus that.
     
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  47. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    No no no! You're getting it all wrong! Matt has mentioned that TSW is now better than ever! TSW3 and all its features are peak perfect! Clearly you are not seeing the game properly! You need to make sure your game is updated and re-adjust your pink cat earphones on your head as a real professional does :D Seriously though, they know they have a huge mess on their hands. Time for an honest talk with their community and have a complete tear down and rebuild if they are looking to salvage any kind of dignity they may have left with this brand.
     
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  48. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't agree more. There was a stream with Sam and Matt a while back where Sam was legit asking the tough questions live on stream to the point where Matt even looked visibly uncomfortable with the questions. That was the good part about Sam, he wasn't afraid to be brutally honest. Shortly after, there was some progress with the introduction of the roadmap and the preservation crew going back to update old routes. Things weren't anywhere near perfect, but they were certainly better than now. Sadly, all that progress seems to have been reversed with TSW3.
     
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  49. NotDavid

    NotDavid Active Member

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    Dovetail are making a uk route which makes use of the class 700. Which they will be making London St Pancras - Leicester which it means it goes past bedford. so St Pancras Thameslink will be coming on for Bedford services so that will be good. this will be released by the time the midland mainline is more cool

    And train sim world seems fine so i have no idea what your talking about as its great its got great releases and even more great ones coming up!
     
  50. NotDavid

    NotDavid Active Member

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    Look there's new routes coming in the future which can add on in these routes such as Edinburgh - Glasgow Queen street and the Birmingham cross city route.

    And much more


    they will be filed in with more services some how or a other.
     

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