700 On Bml Possible Workaround

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by damian#6190, May 3, 2023.

  1. damian#6190

    damian#6190 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2022
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    16
    If the release for add ons manager has a really smooth release on PC and Xbox wouldn’t it optimise BML to have a playable 700/0 layer? Because afaik it loads in only 1 route and the required DLC for layers and stuff at once. If it can be done on SEHS with nearly as much timetable services and AI services as BML then surely it would work on both.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    There's no issue for BML on newer consoles and PCs.
    The issue is with older consoles and the optimisation of the route generally

    There isn't nearly as much. BML has loads of overlapping services and a major route hub at Victoria. SEHS doesn't have anything like that and St Pancras isn't anywhere near as busy

    The main issue with BML seems to be how they built the route itself, with lots of things hogging memory. The time table doesn't help, but there is a LOT of the same asset being used there and 1000 4 car 377s doesn't take up much more memory than 1 4 car 377 whereas adding in a 9 or 12 car unit like a 700 would add 9 or 12 more units into the memory usage
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  3. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2020
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    478
    Well the solution is simple then: release the class 700 only for modern consoles and pc. Gives the outdated console playerbase a reason to upgrade to a newer machine.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Ah, the old carrot and stick approach... that's known to work
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2022
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    4,023
    According to Matt in the roadmap, adding the 700 would only cause crashing on bml. He never specified which platforms which means it affects next gen and pc as well. So until optimizations are made, the 700 can't run in
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2020
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    478
    Everytime DTG mentions "crashes due to running out of memory" they are talking about consoles. PCs generally have much more memory available than consoles (mine has 32GB), so it will never be an issue there.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,177
    Likes Received:
    9,162
    Your PC has 32GB of memory, not all PC’s do.

    Take the legion series of laptops for example, they all have relatively good specs with 3rd gen GPU’s, but a lot of their models only come with 4GB of ram.

    Your assumption here is that everyone who plays on PC understands how to get the best out of one, but that’s not the case.

    Most common prebuilts & laptops aren’t coming with more than 16GB, more often then not they’re 8GB which is realistically 6GB after bloatware. (AKA on par with modern consoles).

    My point is your comparison is silly, and DTG have to build up from their minimum specs, right upto the best stuff.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    3,079
    Well my "gaming" laptop only had 8GB until I added in another 8GB myself so I could play the Rush Hour routes. I suspect that given the minimum PC specs for TSW (8GB) they can't just blindly push beyond them. I think it was actually the Riesa Dresden route where people said that alone took up 9GB of RAM while playing, so in all the RH routes were very close to the mark. I suspect we won't see timetables like BML again in the near future.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Laptops aren't supported, so if they don't work that's on the user. No different to someone saying "I know it's only for PS3 but I got it working so now it needs to run at 60fps..."

    And to be honest I don't know why anyone would buy a 4Gb laptop in 2023 let alone expect it to do anything other than basic browsing
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,177
    Likes Received:
    9,162
    No, but my point is that the majority of people are likely just picking something to play games on, with limited research before hand.

    Realistically how many people do you think look at the specs of a console, other than FPS & graphics (even then, how many even look that far).

    So many people look over the fact that your average sub £1000 prebuilds (which are overwhelmingly popular), are well within the realm of console specs.

    Yes, PC’s can have stupendous amounts of ram & meaty GPU/CPU combos, but a lot of them don’t.

    My point with the 4GB ram range was that if you look at curry’s, the Legion range is pushed hard and seems to sell well, and a lot of those really do have just 4GB ram.

    Just yesterday I had to talk a friend out of buying a 3050TI laptop for £900, like seriously, there are people buying these crappy setups without knowing what they’re getting into, so the whole ‘consoles are to blame’ is a ridiculous stance, because you just don’t know what people are running.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. countcussy

    countcussy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2022
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    391
    Agreed. People don`t do research anymore. I have a friend who bought a laptop to play the Sims. Somebody had told them that they needed at least 4gb of Ram. Which in fairness, it did. But the processor and on-board graphics sucked, resulting in a slide show.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    That's not DTGs problem, nor is it an excuse on the side of the buyer. I've worked in IT and done sales and it's not easy, but the first rules isn't "how cheap can I buy it" but "what do I want as a minimum and can I afford that.

    Erm, I don't think anyone looks at FPS or graphics... usually they look at what games it comes with and how much comes after the £,$ or € sign... Even people looking at PCs usually see "good for gaming" on the PC World or whatever shop they're in signage and don't look any further, as I said, I used to sell these things (coincidentally I had to leave after a year or so because I wouldn't sell the basic models which had the highest markups...)

    And the minimum requirements stated on steam for this game are 8Gb, so if people only have 4Gb they don't meet those requirements. Again, that's on the user.

    Haven't said "consoles are to blame". Users not knowing what they're doing is often to blame, and better to educate the users and then assist them in getting their machine up to spec (if possible) or look at other avenues (or even better get them BEFORE they put their money down).
    What we shouldn't be doing is saying DTG should be changing their methodology on PCs (and I include laptops in that) when it's really not needed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,177
    Likes Received:
    9,162
    You’ve *almost* got the point I was making, but anyway, pointless conversation, just wanted to pick up on the naivety of the statement I originally replied to. Enjoy!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Trainzrule

    Trainzrule Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2022
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    66
    Hot take: BML at this point really could use a bit of love. It's one of the best TSW routes, but still has issues like the door on the 377's gangway sometimes being locked in the open position for some reason.
    Anyways, if ever there was a route that deserved another Boston Sprinter treatment, it would be BML. I am very much in favour of it being upgraded to TOD4 and getting TPWS approach control. (TPWS approach control really makes the gameplay experience so much better.)
    And in the process, it should get some performance optimization , possibly using auto testing. And of that works out well, then the 700 could be added.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. TimTri

    TimTri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2021
    Messages:
    1,241
    Likes Received:
    2,641
    People need to stop spreading the argument that old gen consoles are holding TSW back. We have had many instances where layers have only been made available on newer gen consoles, such as the Class 313 for example. There is literally nothing stopping DTG from only adding the Class 700 to London-Brighton on current gen consoles and PC. But they’re not doing that since the route would apparently start crashing on all platforms (according to Matt in yesterday’s stream). So the problem seems to be with the route itself.

    The routes aren’t really built with all platforms in mind. The “perfect” version (for PC) is being built first, then they implement some standard optimization for the old gen versions (decreased texture quality, decreased passenger numbers, smaller draw distance etc.). If they’re still running into performance issues at that point, which rarely seems to be the case, they can start looking into removing AI layers and then drivable layers. Obviously some of this optimization and testing work is done while early development is still ongoing so large problems can be recognized and resolved early on.

    It’s also worth noting that a high rolling stock variety doesn’t necessarily have to lead to performance problems. It also depends on how a route is built. For example, SEHS is a very efficient route, remaining perfectly playable with all layers (including AI) on last gen… and there are about 40 layers on that route according to yesterday’s stream! On the other hand, London Commuter is so inefficient, they can’t even add additional layers or Rush Hour passengers on the most capable consoles and PCs. Munich-Augsburg is also in that camp, apparently in dire need of additional work before TSG’s DB BR 420 DLC can be released.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  16. damian#6190

    damian#6190 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2022
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    16
    Xbox series X had the same
     
  17. damian#6190

    damian#6190 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2022
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    16
    My point exactly
     
  18. jazztrains#5046

    jazztrains#5046 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2022
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    7
    Just as a question if you wanted the 700 on the BML would you want it as the current timetable or the old one. You will possibly have to reduce some services elsewhere to fit the paths in. Also clog up issues on the current route would also need to be fixed. If you add the 700 it'll get 50% worse. But as said before a little overhaul could really bring the route up to another level.
     
  19. mati147014

    mati147014 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2022
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    14
    If you want to tell that BML would crash with more services then tell my why it doesn't with timetable mod including class 700? In it current state, the mod is adding about 300 services to the current BML timetable and the game works just fine. Heck, the mod creator even modded in the /1 variant with 12 cars. I've done multiple services on this already and didn't encounter a single crash. It's incredible that DTG says something can't be done and then one person comes and just make that. And with the release of the Editor we will just get more of mods that were stated to be "nearly impossible to be implemented".

    Edit: Most recent version of the mod made by trainsimcz as for now for the context: https://trainsim.cz/?mod=article&showid=2727
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2024
    • Like Like x 2
  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,736
    Likes Received:
    17,949
    Probably because it's a mod, and therefore PC-only
     
  21. mati147014

    mati147014 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2022
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    14
    There is nothing stopping them from keeping current timetable as well tho.
     
  22. bleajch

    bleajch Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2024
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    49
    Right??? I also downloaded and used this mod some. You wont believe it but it was completely fine! My specs are not even good, no clue why they couldn't just add it to newer gen consoles and PC but I guess if its crashing that much, even though I haven't had a single crash. :o
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2024
  23. TimTri

    TimTri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2021
    Messages:
    1,241
    Likes Received:
    2,641
    That comment from me is from almost a year ago! Back then, DTGs stance was that BML was built in a way that would lead to game crashes with more rolling stock, and I believe that is still the case. I think the Class 700 timetable mods are awesome. Hopefully DTG takes another look at the route at some point.
     
  24. mati147014

    mati147014 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2022
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    14
    I get that your comment is old, but route didn't changed at all since then, so I don't see a reason for it to work smoother now.
    It just shows how lazy they are, I won't be surprised if in the near future more of DTG's impossible to implement thing would be made through editor. I just would like to get routes with a rolling stock variety and amount of different branches as TSC has, as originally TSW was supposed to be it's successor. And considering "problems" with BML I think it shows that this dlc was rushed instead of patiently made.
     

Share This Page