Most Likes Means Instant Winner In Weekly Contest?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by unionpacificfan, May 15, 2023.

  1. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure that why we have the themeing for each week, and most times there are ones that only apply to certain countries or regions.
     
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  2. ctlee#2068

    ctlee#2068 Active Member

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    I've heard a way:
    The competition lasts for a month. Pick 4 or 5 winners. Take turns showing these photos.
    For me, 3 photos a week is not bad.
     
  3. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    But there wouldn't be a perpetual winner. That just never happens, and no matter how unbiased a judge is, even they will get sick of seeing the same things week in, week out. We're merely talking about the possibility of the same person winning more than once in any month, which let's be honest, already happens quite regularly, so I'm really not sure what your issue with that is.
    But when the same person wins two weeks in a row now, they don't put up similar images. What makes you think that will happen? Plus, the competition is themed each week, for this reason.
    There's no desire to change the rules of entry, just to stop awarding the win to the one with the most likes. Other than that, I see no need to change the rules.
    You don't win through effort, you win through being the best. Effort is all very well, but people can put a great deal of effort into something and still be rubbish at it.

    Stop using likes as a metric for judging. That's it. It would be nice if it was judged blind, but statistically, DTG may not have the time, or desire to do that, so all that is really needed to resolve this is to just ignore likes. They are meaningless, and leaves the competition open to abuse.

    Nothing else needs to change, and someone winning more than once in a month is not a problem for anyone. I've not seen anyone complain when it happens already (which it often does). The only people I see wanting a winner banned for a month are the people who never win. It's obvious why they would want it. You should never dumb things down to make them easier. All you end up doing is lowering the overall standard of entry, and no one benefits from that... no one. Look what's happened to university education here in the UK now it's driven by profit. Getting a degree is so easy now, that having a graduate degree is no longer the minimum for many jobs now. They now require a Masters. The result is academic inflation. Getting a MA is now as easy as it was to get a graduate degree 20 years ago. Dumbing things down to make them easier hurts everyone eventually. Obviously what's happening here is not the same level of importance :) Yes, it's just a silly screenshot contest. I'm merely using it to illustrate how holding back the best to aid those less able is a terrible thing to do, even for those you think you are helping.
     
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  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? We're gonna go down the "there are no losers here" road? Why do people have an issue with having a single winner? Some you win, some you lose. If you can't win something, then you need to get better at that thing. If you can't, then it's not for you, move on and find the thing you are good at. Besides, even winners can't win all the time. Losing is part of learning how to win. That's life. The reality is, in life, there are winners, and there are losers. It's not a bad thing. It's how you decide what it is you wish to do with your life. If you wish to carry on doing things you are not good at merely because you enjoy it as a hobby, that's great of course, but you should not expect everyone else to lower their standards to accommodate you. So long as the screenshot competition is supposed to have images that best show the game, then preventing those best able to do that is just illogical.
    If the competition is meant as a community event for fun, and no one cares about the quality of the images, then sure, I'll take all this back and admit I was wrong. It's one or the other though... you can't have a nice, cosy 'everyone's a winner here' philosophy, AND the best images. It's impossible unless you adopt a 'good one this week, crap one next week' strategy to please everyone. It will be obvious as well when you look at the images. People will just look at the results and think 'yep... it's a charity week' LOL.

    When did the idea of a winner become so socially unacceptable? The same people who want to change everything will still cheer their teams on to victory... still want their favourite politicians to win... Yet when it comes to themselves... then they want an easy ride.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2023
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  5. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we're debating the winner too much.
    What we do is subjectivity.
    When you have a fixed judge, the only way to fix their bias is to impose additional rules forcing diversity.
    For example, I'm really tired of UK, and particularly Class 37 shots even being offered. In the unofficial comps, there is a super heavy UK bias. Your current winning shot is great, but after the two seconds I marvel at the wonderful enhancements captured, I just notice it's more of the same.

    Also, yes, winning is binary. Since I never did, my shots are crap. Right? Please explain what was so wrong with my offerings last week that should be fixed. Just for example. Boring? Too dark? Too lo-fi? Too old content? Bad composition? Bad lines? Bad contrast? Bad color balance? Something else? All of it?

    Because as you say, I never won, so I suck, so I should stop contributing and find a better hobby.
    There is one friend that loves my DJ mixes. But nobody listens to them, because I'm not buying listens (literally, it's how it works). So I suck and I should look for another hobby.
    I think I would be pretty good at cutting my arms with sharp knives. But it's not a good hobby.
    I am also pretty good at wallowing and crying on the forums, but it's not a popular hobby, nor do I intend to perfect it.

    I'm not fishing, I've been told many times that my shots are enjoyable, but also that they don't cut it, although frankly I don't know why. There is not a single positive feedback, X was good, Y was not, it's just no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no, so yeah. It's no.

    Also, if people leave, that's how you end up with weekly competitions with 6-8 offerings.
    You don't want them to leave, you want to grow them by giving advice and somesuch.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2023
  6. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but 'forcing' diversity is always awful. You should always seek to be inclusive, but what does that look like in here? Just choosing someone else because you don't want to choose the same person who won last week? Again, you are rejecting the best image in favour of something else just to give others a chance.

    I can't remember the last time I saw a shot of a class 37 win the weekly screenshot contest. I've just scrolled back a month, and there was a total of one class 37 shots submitted, so not sure what you are complaining about 37s.

    1. We're not talking about the unofficial competition, and 2. Then do something about that.

    I wasn't even aware I had won... not even checked that thread yet. Is it though? The train is almost incidental... a small detail. The week's theme was the sun. It's the only shot in that thread that reduces the train to a much less important role, so in what way is it the same as the others? Besides, the fact that you are now critizing others' stuff just makes you look bitter and angry. It's like when I won the AP competition. Did you know I actually got hate mail and physical threats in Messenger? Some people are just really sore losers, and they should just refrain from entering if they can't cope with losing, as losing is part of the process of entering any competition.

    I've never once commented on your input that I recall. I would never actually do so unless someone asked me to do so outright. If you consistently enter, and consistently fail to win, then there's clearly something about your images that people don't like. Have you ever thought to ask, or find out what that is?
    If you always enter, and never win, then there's a reason for that, yes. Why is that fact offensive to you? Do you think that is my fault or something? What else makes sense to you? You think that there's a conspiracy of some kind? That people are not voting for your stuff for personal reasons? If you read what I wrote, you would see that I say no such thing. In fact, I say that if people wish to pursue things out of the joy of doing them, then it doesn't matter how good you are, and nor should it ever. I was saying that you should not expect others to lower their standards to accommodate you. Do you disagree with that? Do you think people should lower their standards to accommodate you? Or... do you think your screenshots are amazing, and something else is going on?
    Why not ask whoever judged it? This is the WHOLE point this thread though... you, and everyone else was beaten by someone who was like farming, and Jamie merely chose the one with the most likes. I think, with respect, you are spending to much time feeling sorry for yourself that you are missing the point of this thread.

    No, of course not, but, if he enters any competitions and never wins, then he needs to work out why instead of blaming everything and everyone else.

    At least you can recognise some of your talents. ;)


    Sure. But we're talking about changing the rules to disadvantage the best, in order to give a greater advantage to those are not. That, by definition, is unfair.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2023
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  7. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    I said it's a great shot, genuinely liked it, and I just got allergic to the visually enhanced AP Class 37 over the years.
    It's just an illustration of my personal preference. I'm sure everyone is bored of certain topics, that's my point. Those who share it, must like it so much. The definition of a great picture is many pixels of AP Class 37. They look at it and they are filled with happiness.
    My own joy generator is lush foliage and vibrant colors and moods. (Of which there was plenty in your shot.)
    (representing countries) I do, did.
    I discussed it with someone earlier this year, at which point all but one out of 12-25 shots (in 3-5 weeks) in the unofficial were British.
    Someone even said it's because non-UK content doesn't cut it - flat straight out, because it's not enhanced and not a specific quality.
    I know you know I'm the guy that shares pictures from many places. It started out innocently - I just didn't want to share consecutive shots from the same scenario - and then figured it's a nice thing to keep doing. A bit of collage. And when I pick the shots for this pool, I don't just pick three near-identical ones, I intentionally go for variety (low shot, side shot, buildings, nature, river, rocks).
    Also, might be a coincidence but my posts may have inspired some people to (re)play some content and share their own captures of it.
    It's what you see into it.
    It's discouraging. That's the word.
    What you said, is the same. Get good or get out.
    That's why I only contribute once a month or so. When I feel like I have something nice.
    I did, multiple times. (Including in the post you quoted.) Nobody said anything.
    Except once - we shouldn't help others, because that won't help us win next time. Same story as with likes and rating.
    You may have seen that I've given some minor advice. I enjoy looking at great shots here, and if someone is struggling, it's great to offer help, in case it works. (It was about color composition / balance, struggling with blue trains.)
    I got one advice, though. Buy RWE, AP Sky, Track, Signals and trains, and that will improve me.

    One practical problem is that the losers don't know the margin. Likes sort of handle it.
    People ask for metrics to know where they are. Were you a close second, was it a tight race, or do you fail.

    Someone said to me this week that reading back many of my posts (elsewhere) they realize I'm describing my experience and thinking about suggestions. Given the topics it can be read as a complaint. Please understand them as such.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2023
  8. ctlee#2068

    ctlee#2068 Active Member

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    I think most of the photos are beautiful. It's nice to have 10 winners a month.
    5 from most likes, 5 from DTG designation. That should make sense.
     
  9. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    They struggle to get the single winner up in a timely manner :)
     
  10. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I can only speak for myself here, but I only play British routes and trains. That's all you will ever see from me. As for others, I disagree. There are a wide variety of trains represented in the unofficial competition. Last week there were nine entries, four of which were British. This thread isn't about that competition though, and there's certainly no British bias in the official competition that I can see.

    Who is this someone? Perhaps you need to stop listening to this person. I certainly wouldn't be biased towards any type of train, or country when judging that competition. I pick the best image on two criteria: How good it looks, and how creatively the theme has been interpreted. Others may have different judging criteria... I've no idea. Again though, were not talking about that competition. This thread is about the official competition. We've been informed by the person who judges it, that he's recently just chosen the one with the most likes. I think, if you read this thread, most think that is not a suitable way to judge it, as it's so open to abuse and cheating.

    Maybe, but it's a competition, and the idea is to pick the best, otherwise it's not a competition. If you chose to get out instead of getting good, that's your choice. Seriously, there are load of things I like to do that I'm not very good at. I wouldn't get despondent about it. I'm not that great a writer, but I love writing. I sit for hours turning out reams of turgid nonsense. I do realise though, that if I ever want to get anything published, I really need to up my game, as I know I'm not that good at it (Not that I've any great desire to actually do any of that... I just enjoy it). There are other things at which I utterly excel however. Play to your strengths, and strive to improve your weaknesses. I'm not just talking about this silly little screenshot competition now, I mean in all aspects of your life. If you constantly do something, and constantly get the same results, then it's clear that something you are doing is wrong. Find out what it is... fix it, or accept that you're just not seeing what it is. I'm not trying to be harsh here, but I really don't know how else you want to world to work. Everyone should get equal opportunities to excel at things, and for the life of me, I can't see how this competition stops anyone from doing that. One could argue that having the very best on show should inspire, not discourage.

    That's unfortunate. I mean, I can give feedback on anyone's image, but the only really useful feedback would come from the person who actually decided it didn't make the cut. If it's the official competition, then that would be Jamie. He's probably a bit busy to do that. If you enter into the unofficial one, and I happen to be that week's judge, I would happily give you feedback, but what is it you would want? Feedback on why yours did not win, or feedback on why the winning shot won? They are not the same thing.


    Sounds like bad advice for this thread, as any of those things will disqualify you from entry.

    It seems to me, and I say this without prejudice, that you are very quick to offer criticism to other people's entries, but offer no sense of self-criticism. Surely if you have the ability to find fault with the work of others, it wouldn't be too difficult to apply those skills in a more reflexive way with regard to your own work. That's the advice I give my students. Criticism had a negative connotation, which is why the word critique is much better in my opinion. However, there are just some people who have never learned to accept it. If it's valid criticism, then you should listen. If it's just sour grapes from someone who is bitter about not winning... then ignore it. Make what you like to make... must make it good. You are also adept at finding reasons for not winning that are not valid, such as the belief that you need a complete arsenal of AP products to win. I'm sorry, but the competition this thread is discussing, it's an even playing field, and everyone has equal chance, as it's just stuff available on Steam.

    I'm not sure what else to say to you. One thing is certain though, dumbing down a competition to give those less able a chance to win, only weakens the whole competition for everyone. It's like those who use cheats and codes to complete a computer game. Do they really get the same sense of victory or completion as those who did it the hard way? No. I don't think they will. What they want is the instant gratification of posting a screenshot of them defeating the final boss on their socials, and then sit there for the next few hours hitting F5 to see how many people 'liked' it.

    The one thing I'm sure of though, is that people are probably getting quite board of you and I commandeering this thread to discuss your existential crises ;) Just enter the comp. If you win, you win, if you lose, you lose. Changing the rules to make it easier to win benefits no one.
     
  11. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    BTW... I'll be damned if I'm checking all THAT for typos, so I hope you can read past the ones that surely must be in there. I bashed that in at over 120wpm so it's probably a mangled mess LOL.

    No more. I've said all I'm going to say on this matter now. I just hope sanity prevails.

    [edit]
    I noticed that in the unofficial competition thread, you posted this....
    Fine. I will not include them in my judging. I'm not going to feel sorry for you, and I absolutely refuse to be emotionally blackmailed. I was quite prepared to judge your entries alongside everyone else's with absolutely no bias or preference. You need to stop thinking like a victim.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2023
  12. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    That's why I expanded the discussion from merely "likes no good" to what makes a good judge.
    I suppose many arguments are objective, so meeting or perfecting those should help improving.
    Or accepting that one's motivation (goals) doesn't match the expectations of a competition.
    Nah, it would simply be silly either way now. That's all. I want to let this cool down.
    I still believe in the community aspect of these threads, I suppose the OP is looking for stuff they enjoy.
    May it be so!
    I suspect you are way more worked up about it than I am.
    When British folks argue, I never figured whether they are constantly on the verge of a pub brawl or simply talk like that by default.
    I do that when I pick (reduce) my shots. Which one is better and why. A never ending process.
    Should one offer active extrovert self-depreciation whenever publishing?
    Look, here is my weekly, I know it sucks, some dark, some are a bit off, but I post it anyway, thanks for passing by, keep moving I guess? :D
    Let me tell you a secret.
    I would just love to know how it works, or should work.
    I do have a coach who told me I'm not bold enough and I have too much self criticism. Many other people said that.
    My coping is perfectionism. I want to get better and I am researching and asking for input how to get better.
    Photography is all over the internet. You can browse others and watch courses.
    As for the ad hominems, I'm probably the one that appreciates other people's work the most on this forums, by a massive margin.
     
  13. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    Pookeyhead, rather than spend a huge amount of time cutting and pasting quotes, here's my points.

    You keep asking what my objection is to the best shot winning, but I've never said that, and even refuted that assertion before. I've been saying what I believe the purpose of the contest to be, that being a showcase. You might save yourself some essay writing if you listen to the person you're engaging with.

    There are lots of very nice shots every week. Apples and oranges abound. There is no objective best that is being disserviced. At some point, it's always going to come down to choosing one of several worthy candidates.

    There's nothing wrong with using likes as one barometer, especially since the pictures are displayed on the startip screen. Give the public some input on what they'd like to see. Yes, there are always going to be people so desperate for some kind of win at anything that they'll even try to game a screencap contest for a niche simulator. You can't prevent someone being like that, you just recognize when it's happening, ignore it, and move on. Why lock off public input entirely because of the occasional goof?

    Actually, one quote, from Jamie (bold mine):

    "recently have been picking the most likes but will always look at others to see what is the best"

    Just to point out that he didn't say he's letting likes exclusively choose the winner.
     
  14. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he did. You're just adding words that he never wrote to suit your own argument.

    Like I said. I'm done here. Said all I need to say. If people cannot bow to logic instead of confirmation bias, then there's nothing more to add.
    BTW... you don't need to. Highlight the text you wish to quote, and click on the floating 'Quote/reply' button. Super fast.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2023
  15. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    I copied directly from his post #12 in this thread, adding nothing but the bold as I stated, and don't appreciate the accusation.

    I never noticed that little button before. That does make snippet quoting much easier on my phone, thank you.
     
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  16. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Correct, and I apologise. Your choice of words made me think the bold words were yours... not just the bold text. I should have gone back to check. I still stand by my argument. Likes are not a suitable way to judge a competition. Too open to abuse and cheating.
     
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  17. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Simple solution and I'm not reading through todays wall of text to see if it's already been mentioned or not....

    Turn likes off in the competition thread or create a new comp only section where likes are disabled..

    Simples.
     
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  18. Craigie-C

    Craigie-C Well-Known Member

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    Would just like to add to this thread the Culprit that started this issue has been big and mature enough to own up for the error of their ways and has posted accordingly in the original screenshot thread.
    Credit where credit is due.
    Although to me the fact owning up to like farming does not answer the issue of likes being included in the decision process.
     
  19. cscarpenter

    cscarpenter Well-Known Member

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    Hi guys, just wondering if there is any update on how this comp is going to be judged going forward?
    Does this decision factor still apply?
    As in effect if I win this week there is no point me entering for the next three weeks?
    MTIA
    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2023
  20. Craigie-C

    Craigie-C Well-Known Member

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    I personally am not going to continue to contribute as it seems at the moment the decision on which screenshot is chosen is completely random, and has no bearing in which was "The Best Screenshot"

    This week for example, for me just magnifies that factor.
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...est-may-2023-week-21.70544/reply?quote=660156
    It is not a poor shot by any meaning, but it is surely not the best that was on offer.
    My Critique is:-
    The lighting isn't exactly spot on
    The angle of shot highlights the over exposed bridge structure as opposed to the mountains which were supposed to be the subject matter.
    The rule of thirds has not been implemented in any way form or fashion.
    What exactly is the camera focusing on??
    All In all IMHO not a winning shot
    But hey ho

    There were at least 3 better offerings than the the one you have chosen.

    This is not a position of sour grapes from my side, I have not even entered a contribution this week.
    I have on many a happy week enjoyed contributing and winning the Official Screenshot thread but feel it has now lost direction and leadership and is heading for the Doncaster Scrap Yard which is where I see my screenshots now being posted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2023
  21. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Bit of a rant incoming, because I'm not sure I agree.
    He's ignored the likes, and chosen his favourite. This is what we asked for :) We won't always agree with the judge, but at least now it can't be like farmed. As for prescriptive aspects like rules of thirds... areas of focus etc... these are traditional forms that don't always need to be adhered to.
    This shot won me quite a few awards...
    [​IMG]
    it obeys no rules that I can see. It was from a documentary series I did called "Middle Aged Shred", about kids who skated in the 70s, and never stopped, even though they are now in their 50s. The shot was to show the fatigue and pain they feel and how they tolerate it through love of the sport. This is the famous 80s skater Neil Danns... now in his 50s. No rules of thirds, bang in the middle of the frame... straight to camera... not posed, nor directed... lighting not particularly flattering (and wasn't meant to be). Camera club types hate it, because it's not a pretty landscape, or obeys formal "rules". Sod rules I say. It's raw... like the sport and how they feel. If something about an image moves you emotionally, then it's working... for you. So long as you can say why you like it, it's as valid as anyone else's choice.

    So long as it's not chosen by likes, I'm happy. Jamie did what we asked him to do, and ignored likes. You can't complain because he likes something you don't. Was that screenshot my favourite? No, it wasn't actually, but that doesn't matter. I'm sure the last time I judged the unofficial contest many disagreed with my choice as well. That's fine. You can't please everyone, all of the time. I wish people would say why they chose though. If you can't justify it, you shouldn't chose it.

    Sorry.. not having a go at you Mr C, but it must feel that being the judge of that competition is like being between a rock and a hard place. He gets shouted at for using likes as the criteria, and when he ignores likes and just chooses his favourite (which we asked him to do), he gets shouted at for not choosing other people's favourites. :)
     
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  22. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    Quite possibly Jamie has tried to show that he listens, factoring in several systemic complaints.

    Your critique can help further judging. It's not always possible or desirable to meet all rules. I agree it's good to know about them, to help formulate why the judge likes or dislikes a shot. It's also subjective, my own style has had several phases throughout the last six years.

    I suspect that "fresh content" gets bonus points for one reason or another (marketing, interesting, scenery quality).

    If you enjoy supplying a couple shots, fresh or old, please keep doing so.
    I decided to visit less but I enjoy them, appreciating the better ones with a like (as always, but fewer).
    It's calming to see you in my own boots. Or alarming. During discussing it earlier on, I was disagreed with, but I feel validated, too.
    For me it's the friendly high fives (or the lack thereof).

    By the way, I'd be honored if you'd dissect my latest weekly (posted on Steam as well, link is right here).
    (For the sake of discussion, better understanding and possible improvement.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2023
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  23. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Exactly. Subjectivity is always going to be a big thing if someone chooses their 'favourite'. People like different things.
     
  24. cscarpenter

    cscarpenter Well-Known Member

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    DTG Jamie DTG JD
    Just wondering if you have come to a decision and are able to provide us with some clarification on a definitive set of rules for this competition so we all know where we stand.
    I was fortunate enough to win last week but don't see the point of creating any more offerings if I won't be included in the process purely because I have won previously in the same calendar month.
    Many Thanks
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2023
  25. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    It will be based on a subjective decision from one (or many) of the Community Team. Winning one week will not exclude you consideration from future competitions.
     
  26. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    A sensible decision.
     
  27. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    It is. Participants should just accept the appointed winning screen. Starting to argue on the decision, whether their shot is better, is bad sportsmanship to me, only leading to quarrels. It's just for fun.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2023
  28. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    Don't be like John.
     
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