Birmingham Cross City And The 323 Is A Poor Driver Experience

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by stujoy, May 24, 2023.

  1. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’ve just bought Birmingham Cross City for PS5 as it has a 40% discount in the new PS store sale.

    TLDR highlights in bold…

    I finally found the training for the 323 (only available in the Journey mode and no links anywhere else to it including through TC - see extra note below about my thoughts on this) and completed that with the speeds all being shown in km/h instead of automatically and prototypically being set to mph. As usual it is just a go then stop, open and close doors tutorial so should be simple to get right but despite the HUD showing the option to open and close the doors using the left and right controller keys I had to press the in-cab buttons to actually trigger the next instruction. I’m a seasoned TSW player so knew what was happening but this could be the first tutorial a new player plays as this route is in a starter pack and they would be confused as to if this game is even worth pursuing.

    Extra Note on train tutorials - they need to be linked from the route in the training menu. That is where I would expect them to be, that’s where the menu item suggests they would be but they aren’t. This is true for all routes.

    Because I had played the tutorial in the Journey, I decided to play the next service that came up and I am prompted to ask two important questions for the devs, and considering the route is now six months post-release how it can still be like this. First run feedback…

    1. Why is the platform PIS nice and bright but the signals are really dim? This was a service after sunset with a darkening sky and the signals are barely visible but the PIS on the platforms lovely and clear and visible from a distance. Also, how is it still like this after six months?

    2. Why (yet again) are the AWS sounds so quiet in the cab on PS5? They are so quiet that it is hard to tell the difference between the sounds of a clear and a warning, only the duration of the sound playing and the HUD warning gives this away. These sounds should be very clear. The answer again is likely that play testing is minimal on PS5 and it may be easier to hear on headphones or with the windows closed but the sounds are certainly too quiet. So quiet, I thought I hadn’t enabled AWS at first.

    This is really poor in my view. I haven’t even scratched the surface of the DLC and it is already a disappointing experience. DTG need to do better than this.

    The issues of the AWS sound and the hard to see signals will be present on every service so I feel I have seen enough to give feedback on those points after only half a service. There may be more to come but I had to get this off my chest right away as it is fundamental stuff that DTG must get right.
     
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  2. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The signals are certainly not bright enough, we are lucky on PC that there is a mod which addresses this. Some of the ambers can be difficult to tell from the reds.

    I can't say I have had a problem with the loudness of the AWS horn though.

    I wouldn't say overall it is a poor drivers experience, in my opinion the 323 is one of the best trains to drive in the sim.
     
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  3. deeuu#6908

    deeuu#6908 Well-Known Member

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    I don't have those issues on the Xbox.
     
  4. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Something is wrong with the Automatic units in TSW3. I’ve not seen it on BCC but on SEHS Extended MPH is not switching to KPH when it should and visa versa. I’m back to having to switch it manually.

    Just another little thing which broke and has never been put right.
     
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  5. owenroser19

    owenroser19 Well-Known Member

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    Good points.

    Generally speaking though I thought Cross City was far superior to most routes out there, particularly TSW3 routes. It did a lot of things better than other releases.
     
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  6. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I found the route to be well- modeled on the whole and, as far as emu's go ( which isn't very far ), the 323 is not bad.

    But, after a couple of A to B runs the route becomes a snooze.

    And the night lighting is a disaster.

    Haven't had any issues with AWS and I really don't get excited about the PIS, since I rarely glance at it.

    Signal visibility is an issue on several UK and US routes.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2023
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  7. DTG Alex

    DTG Alex Community Manager Staff Member

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    Hi stujoy,

    Thank you for the feedback, sharing your insight as an experienced player on what you would expect new players could find trouble with is very useful and can help us design the game best with the community in mind. I have made a note of the key issues you mentioned:

    • [Audio] AWS Sounds too quiet (PS5) - This issue currently has been reported previously and is currently
    • [Gameplay] Signals very dim across the route - Known feedback for the route
    • [Design] Controller keys not activating next instructions for the 323 tutorial - New issue logged for investigation
    • [UI] Speeds being shown in km/h instead of prototypically being set to mph.
    • [UI] 323 Training is only available in Journey Mode

    I cannot promise that our teams will get to any one of these above issues, but what I can tell you is that the ones which haven't been brought to development until now have been processed and logged.

    Thank you for your continued support and patience.

    DTG Alex
     
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  8. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I know this is the truth and for sure I prefer the truth to a lie, but at the same time it is sad.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2023
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  9. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I believe when this route was set up, they were still, rather embarrassingly, using TSW 2 emissive values for the signals. This is why they appear really dim.

    Luckily for PC users, I fixed this, which can be downloaded from here
    I also wasn’t keen on the aspect colours, so I changed that as well.
     
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  10. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes I do have your mod, it makes a lot of difference. Thanks. Not sure why it can't be changed in an update frankly.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
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  11. TrainGeek08

    TrainGeek08 Well-Known Member

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    I mean it should be there in the first place by the developer but the commitment and dedication you give to the community is appreciated and we like your EPs to several routes and you should keep them up with the other modders you work with :)
     
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  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I remember reading about that mod but I had that it would then be fixed for everyone by now. It does spoil the enjoyment of what is a good route.

    The 323 is also excellent but the AWS sound is one thing that I always want them to get right and here they haven’t managed it this time. There have been times in the past when the live stream played on PC has the AWS sounds playing at the right level but then PS players get to experience it much quieter. The 314 on Cathcart was like that, I can’t remember others off the top of my head but the levels are inconsistent across platforms.

    Thanks for your response Alex, it’s nice to know the reports have been logged even if no action is ultimately taken. I’ve been around to see that many times before as well and all I can do is hope.
     
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  13. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It is a bit disheartening nevertheless to read that significant issues may never get actioned, but they expect us to part with £30 a throw for each route DLC.

    If you are going to rush routes out before 100% ready at that price, there needs to be a robust after release maintenance programme in place, either that or hold off releasing until everything is just so. Or maybe just stop churning out so much content such that the backlog of fixes never gets addressed.

    Did the missing lineside fencing south of Birmingham and the broken (water splines at different height) canal sections ever get fixed?
     
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't disagree more with the OP (except wrt night lighting). The 323 is a joy to drive, one of DTG's best, and at least on PC I have no objection to the sound mix.

    The one real objection I suppose is that it's an A-B (or A-B1, A-B2) commuter route, but it pretty much says that on the tin; I would say it's very comparable in almost all aspects to Cathcart Circle.
     
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  15. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    Yikes.. more the reason to avoid TSW3 like the plague. Waiting to see if DTG gains some FOCUS and can turn things around for TSW4.
     
  16. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, gotta disagree- i think the 323 is one of the best drives in the game.

    Haven't experienced the AWS sound volume issues with it, but i do have that issue on the 385 which no one else can seem to replicate, so i sympathize.

    Issues with the route (night lighting, hidden tutorials, wrong measurment units in tutorials, etc) itself are disapointing, and really should be addressed by DTG, but i can't complain about the 323.
     
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  17. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Hm, I'm not sure that any emu is " a joy to drive ", since they're all pretty much " push and run ". Give me a 1st or 2nd gen dmu any day.

    However, if we have to have one, the 323 is probably the best one out there ( looks and sounds good ) and I'm kind of glad it's being repeated in Hadfield.
     
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  18. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Am I being naive or just having a senior moment, but that's the first time I remember DTG saying flat out that some significant issues may never be addressed?

    That sheds considerable light on a number of issues with respect to other routes.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2023
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  19. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well that's how I read it, maybe unduly pessimisticly.
     
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  20. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Think you all are reading too much into it.

    I took it as the usual CYA caveat so that people don't take it as gospel that everything mentioned WILL DEFINITELY be fixed
     
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  21. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion I think the impressions were a bit hasty, the 323 is one of DTG's best creations and the route itself is very well constructed and a lot of fun. It does highlight some bugs but to call it a "poor driving experience" seems rather unfair and I'm sure when the OP has put more hours on it his opinion will be different.

    As for the sound level of AWS I have something to say, I think the 323 has exactly the right level. I can't stand for example the class 66 or the class 377 because they blow out my eardrums.
    DTG Alex , you have noted an error so quickly because it has been reported by only one person and this can result in the sound engineer increasing the volume, spoiling the enjoyment of other players who consider it correct. This is quite subjective and also depends on how each person plays the game. For example, I use headphones to play and a loud beep can be unpleasant and even harmful to the ears, while someone playing with the TV speakers may need a higher volume.
    Wouldn't it be better, then, to implement in the options a bar to regulate the volume of the security systems to the taste of each one? It seems like something that would be quite easy to do and would definitely solve the problem.
     
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  22. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    So you acknowledge these issues have the potential to put new customers off the game, but wont do anything about it? It either DTG have enough existing customers and dont want any more, or they dont care about TSW any more and happy to see it wither and die.

    Thats the message you are putting out right there.
     
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  23. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think many people may misinterpret what I mean by a poor driving experience. It is an excellent train on a good route but two things that are very important about the route and the train driving experience are poorly done. Signals should not be dim and the door closing sounds from outside of the train should not be heard louder than the AWS warnings in the cab. These warnings are clearly audible in the cab irl and that should be how they are in game, not as muffled background sounds, and on all platforms. DTG do actually get this right in some trains. There are also instances where the AWS sounds are too loud but not many.

    These two things in particular are constantly present and important on every run and are things fundamental to TSW being a good experience. It’s not good enough even if the rest of the train or route are simulated perfectly, The traction motor sounds may be great for immersion but don’t alter the driving experience, the actual business of driving the train. Playing the route for longer is not going to magically make the signals bright enough or the AWS loud enough, it is only the devs that can fix those in a much needed patch.
     
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  24. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I’m a bit burned out on TSW3 TBH, even Peak Forest started getting a bit samey. So I’ve gone back to exploring my barely touched routes in TSC, adding a few new ones in the sale. Class 172 on Goblin is an example of how a modern DMU should be in the sim. Got a FO4 run to finish, MSFS I want to do more in and eyeing Farm Sim 22 as one to get in the summer sales. In fact unless something really iconic is in the pipe, I can’t see me spending much more on TSW in the foreseeable future, even the newer routes like BCC on offer with a bit of discount just didn’t tickle the fancy and I spent nothing on TSW.
     
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  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The class 172 on the Goblin line does not really sound as a class 172 should, I ride on them every day (unfortunately).
     
  26. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's a big issue with TSW at the moment, after the initial excitement of a new route it all of a sudden fades away once a few services have been played, for me anyway. This is why we need some kind of randomness element in the game to keep each run different. Or even an editor, even a timetable editor (sorry, shouldn't mention that word).
    I'm a bit burned out on all train sims at the moment actually, although I seem to keep going back to Run 8 for the physics (even openrails and the new 3d cabs for the 37/47 + AWS mod is great fun using Making Tracks GE).
    OpenBVE with NWM is also a fine sim, just would be nice to do the return trips.
    What would be nice is a Run 8 type of sim for the UK, focussing the physics/signalling. A class 66 Run 8 style in the UK would be great fun.
    Also, I recently fired up TSC,and choose a class 70 scenario for the old WCML North route - that was actually v nice, Keith Moss is a great route creator those early 2d foliage assets really look more realistic to me than the recent 3d efforts. There's even a nice variety of track types, if you don't apply AP's track mod.
    Sorry, OT.
     
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  27. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I read that in the reviews but it sounds quite pleasant nevertheless, especially the horn - which sound more like a 158 horn, than the 158 on MML!
     
  28. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but Nintendo as a developer is unfathomably larger than DTG, with a much, MUCH larger amount of resources available. And as one of gaming's giants, with a flagship series like Zelda, it has a reputation to uphold. Comparing the two isn't really fair.

    Tears of the Kingdom is absolutely phenomenal though, easy GOTY. Twilight Princess is still my favourite though!
     
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  29. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been doing the same thing. Completed the story last night and loved every second of it! Nintendo always have had a knack for getting every bit of performance out of their system for first party games.

    Will be jumping back into TSW again this weekend after about two weeks away from it. Sometimes a break away from it is what’s needed. I feel refreshed and ready to sit in the driver’s seat again ;)
     
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I have had the longest period of playing TSW than ever, it used to bore me after a few weeks but now I have discovered an interest in other countries trains rather than just the UK, I am enjoying the variety. I have hardly touched TSC lately apart from pottering about on the Weardale route.

    I do intersperse my time on TSW with Football Manager but I am not really a gamer in the general sense so don't have a huge library of games to chooose from.
     
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  31. hiromaru

    hiromaru Active Member

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    It is dark so that night is abnormal.

    A ghost town wants to see a town
     
  32. 85Leaf

    85Leaf Active Member

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    I'm a middling to poor driver, so yeah, this route is quite fun.
    :cool:



    Kind regards,
    Dave
     
  33. I play TSW3 all the time and I am a real world locomotive operator/train driver. It has a few issues but overall nothing can compete with it. It is the best that you can buy.

    So that is why you are commenting here. :)
     
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  34. Well having double main line routes where all you have is passenger traffic.... you won't get much variety. ANd that is why the Niddletalbahn was a great success. Hope to see more single track routes with variety. One such route would be Chicago to Byron where you would have long freight trains west of Elgin and Commuter trains east of Elgin....


    I think Berlin to Leipzig (as in TSC) certainly has variety. Berlin hasn't really been touched in TSW3 yet.
     
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  35. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    I just recently got Birmingham Cross City and played it for the first time today. I must say, from the first few hours of gameplay, the route has very much surprised me of how much I am enjoying it, it looks very detailed, although the lighting is still too bright (though a common feature of TSW 3); also I do really wish New Street was busier though as that is one of the only problems so far.

    Anyway, I'm loving the Class 323 and think DTG have done a really great job. However, one major frustration though regarding the 323 in TSW is the same issue from the 158 - what is with the annoying cloud reflections with the windscreen, it's a bit of a pain!
     
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  36. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a great DLC that is just let down by a few fundamental issues with lighting and sound. I’ve played quite a few services now and for a route with mainly short distances between stops (which isn’t my favourite type) it is interesting enough to keep my attention for the long sessions. My initial thoughts still stand but I haven’t found much else wrong with it to be honest.
     
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  37. I don't get the complaints.

    I find the Birmingham line is one of the best UK routes in TSW3 so far.

    Hope for the GEML Ipswich to come now.

    The content now coming out of DTG is very good.

    So I am excited.
     
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  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think it is one of the best too, it would be even better if Birmingham didn't look like it was in the middle of a blackout at night though. Otherwise it is well modelled and the locations recognisable from the real life route with one of the best modelled trains in the sim.

    I do agree the signals are too hard to read though, although the free patch which is available does improve that aspect (pun intended) though.
     
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  39. The variety is good. The German routes are very well made and detailed.

    Niddeltalbahn was/is a great success. I hope for a US freight railroad route that is single line such as Chicago to Byron or Rockford (there are 3 individual lines, CN, CP and UP!!). About 100 miles it covers urban passenger (not that they can get a license for Metra but more like one of the three freight ops mentioned above) and then midwest corn/farm belt which I think is sorely missing from the game.

    Having half the route in the corn belt will truly enable some variety along with challenge of single line running and crossing the odd train.
     
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  40. skareddekat#8430

    skareddekat#8430 New Member

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    Anyone any idea how you can get a gold on the short routes that say "Wait a Moment" before getting underway. I can certainly get silvers but am always around 300 AP short to get gold. Maximum score seems to not allow for gold??
     
  41. Indege

    Indege Well-Known Member

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    Ive not experienced any of these issues PS4
     
  42. SteveRail

    SteveRail Well-Known Member

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    You can’t. There was a long thread detailing all the unachievable golds on bcc, we were told they would be sorted but as with most of these things, it went quiet with no sign or likelihood of being sorted.
     
  43. skareddekat#8430

    skareddekat#8430 New Member

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    Thanks for reply, Thought so.
     
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